Do you know how the alkalinity test works? If you do the math for how much bicarbonate is in the product that you added to RO water and it doesn't equal the change you are seeing, it may be possible the vitamin c is interfering with the test. I know in many colorimetric assays, something like vitamin c, which is a potent reducing agent, can greatly skew the results.
Vitamin "c" dosing Calling the experts...
- Thread starter RBU1
- Start date
RBU1
Moving on Up
Like I stated earlier the label states it has sodium bicarbonate. I would like Randy to explain what that is. I am almost positive that is what you use to raise Alk. I used about 1 teaspoon in 20oz of RO water and was not able to get the test solution to change from blue to yellow after 20 drops.
Pufferpunk
New member
You are correct that sodium bicarb is what is used to rais alk. There is enough in that product to change the pH of ascorbic acid from 4 to 7.1. It has already done it's job & should not affect the rest of your water in any way. There are tons of folks using this product w/o issues. I believe there is something else going on but I am also interested in what the other scientists on this forum have to offer in explaination.
The REeFFers
New member
thats alot of VC for 20 oz thats more then i use on my whole 28 gallon tank ???? i think i might be over dosing to much to fast. i think i just need to use a good ph buffer along with the vc
cybrsufr
In Memoriam
I am also very interested in what Randy will say, but it does make sense with what you are seeing. RO water is quite different than Saltwater. First the PH of RO will be quite different, and the RO is pure so there is absolutely no buffering capacity to it. SW has other elements (Ca, CO3, Mg, Borate, etc) that affect the way the Bi Carbonate will interact with it and will reduce the skewing of your parameters greatly. Even adding 2 tsp of straight arm and hammer baking soda (Na2CO3) will not raise the alk to the levels you are experiencing IMHO. But in a nutshell the big difference is that RO water is not buffered, so with you add the buffered VC, you are adding a huge amout of buffer to pure water, remember pure ascorbic acid is about 4 on the ph scale and they are buffering it up with bicarbonate to 7.1. so when you add that to pure RO water the test is going to measure all of that bicarbonate that is added above the 4.0 of the ascorbic acid.
I am sure Randy can explain it better but that is what is going on. Try adding it to say a gallon of SW and do the test, it will still be high but not like that.
I am sure Randy can explain it better but that is what is going on. Try adding it to say a gallon of SW and do the test, it will still be high but not like that.
RBU1
Moving on Up
That is my point. As you stated it still will be high. I don't want it to change my ALK at all. I used 1 tsp in 20oz of water. When I dose my tank I am using 13 tsp twice a day. That is at the 50ppm mark for those that were following the instructions. So I am using 26 tsp in a day 13 at 5AM and 13 at 5PM. I would think that is what raised the alk in my tank.
HighlandReefer
Team RC
http://iloilocity.olx.com.ph/non-acidic-vitamin-c-in-sodium-ascorbate-form-iid-2637459
From this article:
"4. What is the difference between standard Ascorbic Acid & Sodium Ascorbate?
Ans. Ascorbic Acid is acidic-type of Vit. C with pH of 2.5-3, while Sodium Ascorbate is alkaline-type of Vit. C with pH of 7.5-7.8. Sodium Ascorbate raises the alkalinity of the body, thus, helps in preventing onset of diseases. It also does not induce gastric intolerance."
I would assume that since the alkalinity is high in this product, then it is resulting in an increased alk. in your tank.
From this article:
"4. What is the difference between standard Ascorbic Acid & Sodium Ascorbate?
Ans. Ascorbic Acid is acidic-type of Vit. C with pH of 2.5-3, while Sodium Ascorbate is alkaline-type of Vit. C with pH of 7.5-7.8. Sodium Ascorbate raises the alkalinity of the body, thus, helps in preventing onset of diseases. It also does not induce gastric intolerance."
I would assume that since the alkalinity is high in this product, then it is resulting in an increased alk. in your tank.
Jeff
Premium Member
I really think that anybody that doses vitamin c, Prodibio, sugar, vodka. or whatever that sees massive drops in ORP, massive increses in alk, drops in ph and no positive changes in coral/fish health should discontinue its use. It's not for everybody. The 2 people in that 500 page thread that it works for should continue as they have had positive results without those problems. Oh, and the other hundreds of people that have followed the directions and had the same positive results should continue as well.
If you guys only knew how many people pm Pufferpunk with thank you notes, questions, before/after pictures, and test results you would see that, although we dont know everything about it and how it works, it does work for most people that dose it properly. I cant explain why it increses alk in a few tanks but lets face it, anybody that puts anything in their tanks other then top off water is simply an amateur scientist. Monitoring ORP, alk, ph and calcium as a sub-hobby is likely to find a problem. I did the same thing for years but found that regular water changes, stable water conditions, proper lighting and flow were all that was necessary to keep my animals happy. Adding vitamin c, Prodibio and/or sugar/vodka was just a shot in the arm if used properly. It isnt for everybody and no two tanks are the same.
My best friend (wolf pu on here) told me the other day that he was going to start dosing vodka at some point to enable him to feed heavier and keep nitrates/phosphates down. I told him to consider vitamin c since it does the same thing but has other benefits. I even offered to give him a 2 month supply of the Iherb product for free to evaluate it. He laughed and said that it was probably just snake oil and untested. I asked him if he had skimmed the 103 page thread on it and he admitted that he had not. I asked him if he liked all of the free frags that he has been getting from me and he said of course he did and that they were very healthy. I asked him how I was able to put one single polyp on a frag plug and then have 3-4 within couple weeks. I wasnt able to do that a couple years ago.
I am no scientist, I work with my hands and only have a high school education. But I am open minded, dont worry about test results so much anymore, and use my corals to guage my results. No one was more skepticle then me but the first time I saw Pufferpunk's tank a few years ago convinced me to listen to her and see her results.
Randy is a Reef Central treasure and his opinions and test results are held by me and most others as the gospel but he has stated before that he has not dosed vitamin c but has seen others have good results with it. Sodium Ascorbate dosing is largely untested scientifically but the dozens of before/after pictures and glowing appreciation by the vast majority of open minded users that follow direction are enough for me. If it doesnt work for you or if your tests show otherwise, then discontinue its use and save your money.
If you guys only knew how many people pm Pufferpunk with thank you notes, questions, before/after pictures, and test results you would see that, although we dont know everything about it and how it works, it does work for most people that dose it properly. I cant explain why it increses alk in a few tanks but lets face it, anybody that puts anything in their tanks other then top off water is simply an amateur scientist. Monitoring ORP, alk, ph and calcium as a sub-hobby is likely to find a problem. I did the same thing for years but found that regular water changes, stable water conditions, proper lighting and flow were all that was necessary to keep my animals happy. Adding vitamin c, Prodibio and/or sugar/vodka was just a shot in the arm if used properly. It isnt for everybody and no two tanks are the same.
My best friend (wolf pu on here) told me the other day that he was going to start dosing vodka at some point to enable him to feed heavier and keep nitrates/phosphates down. I told him to consider vitamin c since it does the same thing but has other benefits. I even offered to give him a 2 month supply of the Iherb product for free to evaluate it. He laughed and said that it was probably just snake oil and untested. I asked him if he had skimmed the 103 page thread on it and he admitted that he had not. I asked him if he liked all of the free frags that he has been getting from me and he said of course he did and that they were very healthy. I asked him how I was able to put one single polyp on a frag plug and then have 3-4 within couple weeks. I wasnt able to do that a couple years ago.
I am no scientist, I work with my hands and only have a high school education. But I am open minded, dont worry about test results so much anymore, and use my corals to guage my results. No one was more skepticle then me but the first time I saw Pufferpunk's tank a few years ago convinced me to listen to her and see her results.
Randy is a Reef Central treasure and his opinions and test results are held by me and most others as the gospel but he has stated before that he has not dosed vitamin c but has seen others have good results with it. Sodium Ascorbate dosing is largely untested scientifically but the dozens of before/after pictures and glowing appreciation by the vast majority of open minded users that follow direction are enough for me. If it doesnt work for you or if your tests show otherwise, then discontinue its use and save your money.
Jeff
Premium Member
I can remember back when no one had even heard of ORP meters, calcium, alk, potassium, T5's, LEDs, etc... No one had a real reef tank and if they did, it was mostly experimental. Internet forums? Not so much. Twenty years ago most people that were crazy enough to have saltwater tanks had crushed coral, undergravel filters, ornamental dead/dried corals that we literally beached every month to clean, cannister filters, swing arm hydrometers, and T12 lights. We sure have come a long way with this hobby by listening to hobbyists that get past the skeptical stage and try new things. This information age that we live in has made us all jaded. How often do you see people with less then a year in the hobby telling people the way that they should be doing things, offering opinions on products that they have never tried, or telling others that their 11 dkh is WAY too high and that it needs to be 8-9 even though 11 works for most people?
The point of Reef Central is to exchange information to help others and help this hobby move forward.
The point of Reef Central is to exchange information to help others and help this hobby move forward.
Logzor
New member
These are small amount we are using. I do not understand how this product could change alk. I dose limewater now but on my old 55g I was dumping in 50ml of the kent tech b alk solution. I keep my alk at 9.6 DKH or so.
To say that a small amount of vitamin c causing alk swings is crazy when dumping in 50ml of kent tech b would barely keep up with consumption rate in my tank.
In our relativity small reef club we have many people trying vitamin c with good results. Word has spread and many people are trying this out.
In fact one guy in our small reef club actually got on the phone with puffer and as a result dosing vitamin c has saved his tank.
This is fine criticizing this dosing regimen due to alk and ph swings. This is great because it brings out correct information at some point. Please do not insult the people who are trying to help or talk them down.
To say that a small amount of vitamin c causing alk swings is crazy when dumping in 50ml of kent tech b would barely keep up with consumption rate in my tank.
In our relativity small reef club we have many people trying vitamin c with good results. Word has spread and many people are trying this out.
In fact one guy in our small reef club actually got on the phone with puffer and as a result dosing vitamin c has saved his tank.
This is fine criticizing this dosing regimen due to alk and ph swings. This is great because it brings out correct information at some point. Please do not insult the people who are trying to help or talk them down.
It is easy to calculate the boost the alkalinity that would come from dosing a specific amount. What amount is being dosed?
ORP will certainly take a huge hit, although that is not necessarily a problem.
ORP will certainly take a huge hit, although that is not necessarily a problem.
If we assume that a teaspoon is about 5 grams, then one teaspoon of dry sodium ascorbate will provide about 25 meq of alkalinity. In a 100 gallon tank, that's a bit under 0.1 meq/l (0.2 dKH).
That alkalinity will not necessarily all show up immediately, but will require the compound to be metabolized before it all shows up.
That alkalinity will not necessarily all show up immediately, but will require the compound to be metabolized before it all shows up.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Not sure were the insult comment comes from. I don't see anyone doing any insulting. I was just bringing up a point that I noticed while dosing "c". I figured it would be good to get some more information out for people to see so they are aware of what could happen. Hopefully I have accomplished that. Keep in mind that when you are dosing "c" you can see an increase in ALK. I am not saying do it or not do it just be aware.
Jeff
Premium Member
Read or skim thru the 103 page thread as you do your dosing following Puffy's directions. If you dont see the positive results that dozens of people are writing to her about, then add your own observations to the thread as to your findings, good or bad. This would help the community out a great deal. Her expirimenting, time, and help isn't a joke, rather it's pioneering. Puffy has been nominated for Tank of the Month as well as a spot in Team RC because of her willingness to spend time trying to help others.
Pufferpunk
New member
I have?
Maybe you missed the line Jeff quoted above. I don't think he meant you.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Oh OK.....Don't let that bother you. There are so many different things out there in this hobby. Some work and some don't. As I told you on the phone after my parameters get back to were I like to keep them I will try the "c" again but at least now I am aware of the effect. I know I will see an increase in the ALK and I can adjust my dosing routine accordingly. I also told you on the phone if it is working for you continue to do it. Some things work for some and don't work for others. I don't think I will follow the same dosing amount that I found on that link.
Ouch, personal jab... j/k. I've already mentioned that I am personally evaluating the VC for its results. I never would have come across it if it wasn't for Puffer's thread. After reading the 100 or so pages, tied in with the other postings I've found throughout google searching, it has some merit. The problem is the lack of science backing it. Not saying it doesn't work, but why does it work is always a fascination with this amateur scientist. Do you have to have such incredibly high VC levels for a therapeutic benefit? Why can't you dose both vodka and VC at the same time? I'm sure we'll find out a bit in the next few months as this is seemingly coming to peoples' attention.
Out of curiosity, would VC stabilize H+ when added to these alk test kits? Potentially acting as a buffer, and resulting in the insanely high alk reading....
Pufferpunk
New member
Here's the very beginning of the 104 page thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1252294&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1252294&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Pufferpunk
New member
RBU1, I was wondering--you are using VC to treat the Crypt parasite on your fish--how are they doing?
Genetics, I used the treatment plan here, as a baseline:
http://www.livingreefs.com/forums/saltwater-aquarium-articles/590-use-vitamin-c.html
Genetics, I used the treatment plan here, as a baseline:
http://www.livingreefs.com/forums/saltwater-aquarium-articles/590-use-vitamin-c.html
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