Vitamin "c" dosing Calling the experts...
- Thread starter RBU1
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The REeFFers
New member
Ok i have stated this over and over again but i guess ill just have to ask once again. What can i add to my tank that is safe to bring my PH up, i have only used VC for a week now have seen my zoas grow like weeds, i can count probable 10 to 15 new heads starting to grow. So i dont wanna stop dosing, i just want my ph to go up so i can safely add fish. I have said this before im not flaming anyone, VC has worked for me with a small side effect like many other things that humans take, to better the selves. I really wish some one would quote the other posts i have posts saying that i am not nocking down the product, it works but i believe that in some tanks it might mess with other parameters. i only dose VC and i have seen it keep my dhk right at 10 with out adding anything else, with out vc i was at about 9.6 -9.8. So again i will say puffer sorry im not flaming u or anyone on here im just asking, what will be safe to add to buff my ph. This thread i believe was made so that u can see that there is side effects from using this product and what to do about them, not to knock down anyone
What can i add to my tank that is safe to bring my PH up,
Like all low pH issues where low alkalinity is not the problem, the best solutions are more aeration with fresh air and/or dosing limewater.
Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm
Like all low pH issues where low alkalinity is not the problem, the best solutions are more aeration with fresh air and/or dosing limewater.
Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm
rguyler
New member
I'm a newcomer to RC but not to the hobby, and while I don't maintain reef tanks I've used VC extensively over the years for fish health. My last success story was a purple tang that was horribly eaten up with LLE. I asked the LFS to sell it to me for $40 and they jumped on the chance to get something out of the fish before they killed it. I fed the fish a basic green flake diet saturated with liquid VC and in one year there was no sign of LLE and the fish had doubled in size.
I always use VC in my food preparations, even so far as injecting into thawed krill, shrimp, etc. and it has never failed to give me excellent results in vitality, color, and every other way. I can't comment on your dosing methods and the benefits of doing so and honestly never noticed any change in water chemistry (I likely used much less VC with my direct method) to ever make me take note. I just wanted to pitch into the conversation that I firmly support VC additives and glad to see a following building based on Puffer's persistence.
I always use VC in my food preparations, even so far as injecting into thawed krill, shrimp, etc. and it has never failed to give me excellent results in vitality, color, and every other way. I can't comment on your dosing methods and the benefits of doing so and honestly never noticed any change in water chemistry (I likely used much less VC with my direct method) to ever make me take note. I just wanted to pitch into the conversation that I firmly support VC additives and glad to see a following building based on Puffer's persistence.
Jeff
Premium Member
Genetics, that wasn't a personal jab at you, sorry if it came across that way.
I wanted to add (sorry I keep doing this
) that you can dose vodka and vitamin c at the same time. Myself and a few others are dosing a seperate carbon source along with sodium ascorbate with good results (I use sugar). The trick is not to overdose and cause an algae bloom that some people have had cause fish/coral deaths. And regarding the problem of lack of science in this phase of the hobby, we need to have someone do a controlled study with identical tanks, one with proper dosing and one without using lab grade testing instruments to achieve concrete scientific results. In the mean time we will continue to "wing it" .
I wanted to add (sorry I keep doing this
) that you can dose vodka and vitamin c at the same time. Myself and a few others are dosing a seperate carbon source along with sodium ascorbate with good results (I use sugar). The trick is not to overdose and cause an algae bloom that some people have had cause fish/coral deaths. And regarding the problem of lack of science in this phase of the hobby, we need to have someone do a controlled study with identical tanks, one with proper dosing and one without using lab grade testing instruments to achieve concrete scientific results. In the mean time we will continue to "wing it" .
Alright, here's my guess to why your alk may look so high in your test kit. A quote from Randy on titration methods to determine total alkalinity in saltwater;
The precise endpoint of a total alkalinity titration isn’t always the same pH, but rather depends a bit on the nature of the sample (both its ionic strength and its alkalinity). For normal seawater, this endpoint is about pH = 4.2.
Now the pKa values of vitamin C
pKa1 4.17
pKa2 11.57
Your test kit is picking up total alkalinity and the amount of VC you are adding is interfering. As you titrate with the acid the buffered VC is taking on protons at around the end titration point of your test kit resulting in high alk readings. Or so says my thoughts....
How much VC are you adding to your tank daily and when is it exactly that you tested your params? Right after dosing?
The precise endpoint of a total alkalinity titration isn’t always the same pH, but rather depends a bit on the nature of the sample (both its ionic strength and its alkalinity). For normal seawater, this endpoint is about pH = 4.2.
Now the pKa values of vitamin C
pKa1 4.17
pKa2 11.57
Your test kit is picking up total alkalinity and the amount of VC you are adding is interfering. As you titrate with the acid the buffered VC is taking on protons at around the end titration point of your test kit resulting in high alk readings. Or so says my thoughts....
How much VC are you adding to your tank daily and when is it exactly that you tested your params? Right after dosing?
Pufferpunk
New member
I think folks worried about pH for their fish, shouldn't. Fish do not "read" pH & can adjust easily to most any pH, if acclimated correctly. I keep all my discus in a pH of whatever comes out of my tap.
rguyler, It's funny that you should mention a purple tang with LLE. My LFS is also giving me one, knowing that I use VC in my tank, hoping I can save it. Lets see if dosing with VC doesn't take a whole year to clear it up!
rguyler, It's funny that you should mention a purple tang with LLE. My LFS is also giving me one, knowing that I use VC in my tank, hoping I can save it. Lets see if dosing with VC doesn't take a whole year to clear it up!
cybrsufr
In Memoriam
WOW!! that seem like a heck of a lot for a 75G tank. I have 273G and am only using 6tsp a day 3 in the am and 3 in the pm that is giving me around a 20 ppm level in the system. 1tsp = 1123mg so thats about 6600mg for me in a 75G tank with 26 tsp you are adding 29138mg a day. for a 50ppm you should be adding around 3300mg a day. That could be the problem at 29138mg a day you are maintaining a 389 ppm level.
RBU1
Moving on Up
I stopped the "c" when I was unsure of what was going on with the water parameters. The fish seem to be free of the parasite at the moment except for the puffer as I told you on the phone. How do you feel about starting the "c" again but only using half what I was using and only dosing one time a day. Will it do anything using a smaller amount or am I just wasting the "c"? I would like to start again mearly just for fish health if it indeed has been proven to help. I am just afraid to go with a higher dose and am unsure if a smaller dose is worth it.
Yeah, I read through that guy a week or so ago. As cybrsufr pointed out, you may just be placing too much in. It seems VC is rather labile in negative effects and so these extremely high doses may be the result of that instead of a dose that will just work effectively. Not that there is anything wrong from that.
Cut back to 30ppm as it is recommended by everyone using it. I'm evaluating it on a much scaled back version. I will be at 0.10ppm 2x daily starting tomorrow.
Cut back to 30ppm as it is recommended by everyone using it. I'm evaluating it on a much scaled back version. I will be at 0.10ppm 2x daily starting tomorrow.
Pufferpunk
New member
According to Genetic's math, it seems you were dosing quite a bit. You should post about your puffer's condition in the preditor forum, there are a few great pufferkeepers there. I think they will tell you to hypo the fish though & I'm afraid if the tank insn't left fallow, he will just contract it again from the system/other fish. I believe FW dips several times/day will help remove the cysts from the fish, giving the VC a better chance to work on the fish's immune system, fighting off a reoccurance.
Randy can you explain this for us laymen? Does this mean alkalinity doesn't show up until the compound is broke down? If this is the case then maybe VC is available longer then suspected?<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14253156#post14253156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
That alkalinity will not necessarily all show up immediately, but will require the compound to be metabolized before it all shows up.
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RBU1
Moving on Up
Well as I stated to you on the phone. I am not a fan of removing fish from the display. In my opinion it causes more stress then is needed. If they are eating I feel confident they can fight it off. I will keep you posted. He went to town last night on some vitamin soaked shrimp. BILL
RBU1
Moving on Up
So in your opinion the VC should be dosed at a lesser amount then I was dosing? I was at the 50ppm mark on my system worked out to be 13tsp. I was doing that in the AM and in the PM so 26tsp a day. I would like to try the VC again but maybe just not as often and not as much. So you think I should go with 30ppm should I stick to only one time a day? Maybe later after noon when my PH is at the highest? I like to try and minimize fluctuations in the system as much as possible.
The REeFFers
New member
ya id say u are using a lot. if im using 1/2 a tsp x2 a day on a 30 gallon if u do the math u should do 5 tsp 2x a day, and iv had no problems with dkh actually had my dkh drop 5 in the last 2 days 
since i stopped dosing. I got a good buffer that locks in my ph at 8.3 and slowly brings up my dkh and after that is locked in ill be backing to dosing. I was really thinking that maybe i could dose (VC) a butt load to bring my dkh up like u were seeing, but then id still have low ph. Again were only trying to be chemist here.
Puffer I think you might wanna start recommending a good buffer before you start dosing"c" it might just give a jolt to the system and only rub1 and I are anal enough to check our water every week to see the out come? just an idea
BUT i am 100% believer that VC is the miracle grow for the sea
since i stopped dosing. I got a good buffer that locks in my ph at 8.3 and slowly brings up my dkh and after that is locked in ill be backing to dosing. I was really thinking that maybe i could dose (VC) a butt load to bring my dkh up like u were seeing, but then id still have low ph. Again were only trying to be chemist here. Puffer I think you might wanna start recommending a good buffer before you start dosing"c" it might just give a jolt to the system and only rub1 and I are anal enough to check our water every week to see the out come? just an idea
BUT i am 100% believer that VC is the miracle grow for the sea
RBU1, yes I would cut back. 30ppm were recommended if your fish were becoming ill. Higher doses were if no effects were observed at 30ppm. Using these high amounts you'll end up getting a lot of benefits. Try testing your alk before adding the VC. Supposedly there is a very short half-life of around 30 minutes.
I'm still under the impression that low levels will result in positive outcomes as well, but you probably won't see the nitrate/phosphate reduction.
I'm still under the impression that low levels will result in positive outcomes as well, but you probably won't see the nitrate/phosphate reduction.
Ok, I read the article, and assuming I have 200g and want to achieve a 5ppm concentration then I add 3785mg a day?? Do I start slowly and ramp up to this? Are most people adding this once or twice a day? If I do twice do I just split the dose in half?
Puffer,
Are you not needing to add any buffers? Looked like your parameters stayed the same, is that correct?
I am dosing vodka so I'm assuming this won't affect that in any way?
Where have I been, this is all news to me, geeeezz!!
Janna
Puffer,
Are you not needing to add any buffers? Looked like your parameters stayed the same, is that correct?
I am dosing vodka so I'm assuming this won't affect that in any way?
Where have I been, this is all news to me, geeeezz!!
Janna
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