Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[tmz]

Further:
I can't go higher than what I dose now without visible bacteria in some sections of the system.

As an example of how nutrients play into it with bacteria in the water column. . Two nights ago during maintenance on one of the displays , I puffed into a hole in a piece of live rock and lots of detritus came up into the water. Don't know how I missed that spot before. I must have pushed out some inorganic nutrients in the process. A minute or two after I was done all the corals appeared to be slimming, 5 to 6 inch strings of mucous; but no some of the specimens involved don't slime. They certainly don't all slime precisely the same way. It was a bloom of bacteria in the water with the strings catching brances. It ended in a minute or two, the strings dissappeared and the water which is very clean was even cleaner.

 

[007Bond]

Thanks Tom, you have given me some food for thought. I think I'm going to bump my vinegar dose up a little and pull the filter socks (100 micron) for now. Like I said my NO3 is at 0 right now, so when I get the PO4 (0.18) down I'll adjust again. I'm also recharging my GFO right now and will have it back on line friday. I know it a balancing act, but its what makes reefing interesting.---Rick

 

[Mr_N1ce]

Hey Tom

thanks a lot for this thread. Its coming exactly at the right time for me as I have high Nitrates and phosphate for the first time in my tank.
I'm keeping to the dosing instructions of the reefkeeping article but it helps a lot to know why exactly I'm dosing Vodka into my tank... I'm afraid a lot of people are gonna start calling me crazy once they see me with hthe vodka bottle in front of my tank

 

[Patzig]

Awesome thread. OK, so I just started dosing only vinegar. My tank is a 40g breeder with 20g sump and 15g (no light, and in circulation with my sump) plastic barrel with very low flow and filled with live rock. My main hopes for the added 15g were sponge and pod population. Would this be a good spot to dose the vinegar? It seems good that the bacterial growth would all happen there in the unseen rock, but should there be better flow? And would it be OK if none of the dosed vinegar made it into anywhere else in the system? Last question, I will soon be dosing the vinegar with a dosing pump. I know most people dose once or twice a day. Would breaking that up to like 8 times a day be beneficial or hurtful? Thank you

 

[tmz]

Breaking up the vinegar dose is helpful. Vinegar puts CO2 in the water right away so spreading it out during the photsynthetic period is a good idea to avoid precipitous ph drops. Vodka adds CO2 also but much more slowly and can be dosed at once. Bolus doisng, ie all at once , may enocurage more anaerobic activity . In the end both vodka and vinegar add the same amount of CO2 though.

 

[alanbates12]

Thanks tmz for starting this thread. I came across this as I am looking for a how to Vinegar dose. I have a 180 and every time I treat it I'm treating for 120 gal of water. Guess I want to know where to start, how much to dose. Also I have a carbon reactor and would I need to turn that off? Here is a table I came across. I'm just looking for some advice on how to start.

http://web2.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=165684&d=1320067498

 

[alanbates12]

The table I'm assuming the doses are ml/cc. And I'm assuming you dose till you get to your desired levels or cyano is gone.

 

[eidels]

Fantastic thread!!! Could you explain what you think is going on with under dosing and observations of micoalgae and what they look like? Also my tank has some localized hair algae and cyano despite 0 Phos with GFO large refugium and GAC and nitrates 1. Do you think Vodka and vinegar would be the best way to contain or even cure this problem?

 

[bsagea]

great info tagging along for more
George

 

[tmz]

Fantastic thread!!! Could you explain what you think is going on with under dosing and observations of micoalgae and what they look like? Also my tank has some localized hair algae and cyano despite 0 Phos with GFO large refugium and GAC and nitrates 1. Do you think Vodka and vinegar would be the best way to contain or even cure this problem?

Microscopic algae suspended in the watercommonly called phytoplankton in the hobby. Usually green and looks like green water and glass. There are hudreds of thousands o species. Here is more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphyte

and ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoplanktonThey are limited by low inorganic phospahe levels ( >.03ppm) and by low nitrate too. The bacteria outcomplete them for it.

I don't know what you mean by underdosing.

I 'd start low and work up over time to about .5ml vinegar equivalents
( 1 ml of 80 proff vodkais equivalent to 8mls of 5% vinegar)per gallon and hold it there.

Localized spots of algae in tanks may take months to wane as bacteria settle in. Rock substrate ,dirty sand ,etc. can leach back PO4 as levels in the waer are kept low; this can go on for months till the loosley bound PO4 is exhausted.

Given PO4 and NO3 readings at 0, I'd try: cleaning the fuge and removing old sand ,before dosing or increasing the organic carbon dose,blowing detritus off of rocks and the standard cleanup methods. If the rock has been exposed to high PO4 it will eventually stop leaching it back in low PO4 water . If you want to accelerate that process, it can be recured in water kept at low PO4 levels or treated with a bleac bath follwedby and acid bath out of the tank. The later approach kills whatever is living in or on the rock.

 

[SkiFletch]

Just chiming in on this thread. After a rocky start to my own dosing with Vodka, I've kept it up at a modest dose limit for a month and whoa what a difference. Algae growth is WAY down, skimmate production is WAY up, corals are all happier than pigs in... well they're happy, bubble algae is almost GONE (Yatzee!), and my water is CRYSTAL clear. I'm thrilled thus-far with this method of enhancing nutrient export.

My "tank" is currently still a trough in the basement, which makes for a funny portion of the dosing. My fish are all trained now to me coming over, removing the egg-crate lid and feeding them. As soon as I pull the lid back they swarm the surface for food. And anything that drops in the tank right after this, they go straight for... Including the 1/4 oz or so of Vodka, they swim right up to/through it. They've yet to pull up wasted though :lol:

 

[GeorgeMonnatJr]

Just chiming in on this thread. After a rocky start to my own dosing with Vodka, I've kept it up at a modest dose limit for a month and whoa what a difference. Algae growth is WAY down, skimmate production is WAY up, corals are all happier than pigs in... well they're happy, bubble algae is almost GONE (Yatzee!), and my water is CRYSTAL clear. I'm thrilled thus-far with this method of enhancing nutrient export.

My "tank" is currently still a trough in the basement, which makes for a funny portion of the dosing. My fish are all trained now to me coming over, removing the egg-crate lid and feeding them. As soon as I pull the lid back they swarm the surface for food. And anything that drops in the tank right after this, they go straight for... Including the 1/4 oz or so of Vodka, they swim right up to/through it. They've yet to pull up wasted though :lol:

How many ml/gal of vodka are you dosing?

 

[weezyfella]

Great thread which I've enjoyed the read. I've started vinegar dosing 3 days ago after much reading threads and article to a point where I am comfortable. I'd like to run three questions all pertaining to vinegar, if you don't mind. I haven't found answers to them.
1. Dosing vodka and vinegar from same container? mixed? assuming I adjust the .8x of vinegar per ml of vodka.
2. Dosing vinegar mixed with magnesium? I've read it once but wasn't certain if its makes sense, since mag or vinegar can and would be need adjustments without respect to each other. I ask this since I just a Bubble Magus 3 pump doser, the first 2 pumps are used for Cal and Alk, I removed the Mag to dose Vinegar.
3. Dosing vinegar in Kalk, does it will eliminate the need for vinegar dosing separately for reducing inorganic N/P or does the vinegar added to the kalk only used to saturate kalk? I would only do this after I've reached my maintenance level upto the 48ml vinegar saturation in the kalk, the rest through dosing after clarification.
Thanks in advance.

 

[tmz]

Great thread which I've enjoyed the read. I've started vinegar dosing 3 days ago after much reading threads and article to a point where I am comfortable. I'd like to run three questions all pertaining to vinegar, if you don't mind. I haven't found answers to them.
1. Dosing vodka and vinegar from same container? mixed? assuming I adjust the .8x of vinegar per ml of vodka.
2. Dosing vinegar mixed with magnesium? I've read it once but wasn't certain if its makes sense, since mag or vinegar can and would be need adjustments without respect to each other. I ask this since I just a Bubble Magus 3 pump doser, the first 2 pumps are used for Cal and Alk, I removed the Mag to dose Vinegar.
3. Dosing vinegar in Kalk, does it will eliminate the need for vinegar dosing separately for reducing inorganic N/P or does the vinegar added to the kalk only used to saturate kalk? I would only do this after I've reached my maintenance level upto the 48ml vinegar saturation in the kalk, the rest through dosing after clarification.
Thanks in advance.

1. You can mix vodka and vinegar at any proportion you choose. When substituting vinegar for vodka it takes 8 not .8 ml of vinegar to replace 1 ml of vodka. For example, I dose 26 ml of vodka and 64 ml of vinegar which would equate to 34 ml of vodka and 0 vinegar or 272 ml of vinegar and 0 vodka
You can't dilute either of them very much or bacteria will consume the organics in the dosing reservoir. . The ph in the vinegar and the alcohol in the vodka supress them.Dilutingthem with water crates asuitable habitatfor bacteria to grow.

2. Magnesium shouldn't require ongoing dosing . It depletes very slowly. I would not mix them. You have to dilute the magnesium to use it with a dosing pump and the vodka and vinegar with it if you mix them.

3.Whatever vinegar you put in kalk counts as carbon dosing just as if you put it in your tank directly. Vodka can be mixied with kalk too but won't give you any additional calcium hydroxide saturation like vinegar will.

I prefer to dose them separately from kalk dosing.

 

[SkiFletch]

How many ml/gal of vodka are you dosing?

I dose somewhere around 5ml/day on a 70ish gal system

 

[btorrenga]

You can't dilute either of them very much or bacteria will consume the organics in the dosing reservoir. . The ph in the vinegar and the alcohol in the vodka supress them.Dilutingthem with water crates asuitable habitatfor bacteria to grow.

Ok, but what if you saturate the vinegar with calcium? Will that lower the pH and create a suitable habitat for bacteria in the reservoir?

 

[tmz]

Calcium hydroxide will rasie the ph.
See the earlier posts on kalk and vinegar. The calcim hydroxide, kalk propvides alkalinity and calcium. It also has a ph of 12.4 at full saturation( ie two tsps per gallon of fresh water) . This is high enough to keep bacteria from growing .

 

[tmz]

This is from a post of mine in another thread:

Whether or not you need it depends on the load in your system and the type of aquarium you wish to keep.

Keeping certain leathers gorgonians and a variety of mushrooms with higher nutrients is ok and if you have enough coral in the tank ,algae can be kept to a minimum . I run a tank like that but sps , many lps ,zoanthidae and other types struggle in that set up.

IME, Most corals particularly sps and zoanthidae thrive with organic carbon dosing: mushrooms of most types( rhodactis, discoma, ricordea florida) do well; a broad range of lps do well; nemenzophylia, cataphyllia jardeni, and ricordea yuma are notable exceptions. Sponges love it, so does the goniopora I keep . Leathers including : sacrophyton, nepthea , sinularia , lobophytum do very well. Pachyclavularia, briarium and many others seem to like it fine. Xenia and some antheila do not do aswellwith it as without it.

Vinegar does not help cyano grow. Cyano doesn't need the organic carbon; it's highly photosynthetic . It's often a start up issue in carbon dosing . As bacteria establish themselves they outcompete other organisms that might be competing with the cyano for the available PO4. Ultimately the bacteria take over and out do the cyano .Been dosing vodka and vinegar for 3yrs and 8mos. Tanks have never been better; no cyano or nuisance algae except a sprig or two once in a while.

Often refugia ,etc are just not enough to carry an sps dominant set up or to allow adequate feeding of the fish unless they are very large.

The bacteria that proliferate in response to the organic carbon also give the micro fuana in th food chain food chain a boost from the bottom up.

 

[Jstn]

Hey Tom,

I was thinking the other day about ethyl acetate dosing. Upon basic hydrolysis, one is left with ethanol and acetic acid. Perhaps this would allow for a slower introduction of acetic acid over the coarse of a day instead of a bolus type dosing.

Didn't really develop this, more or less thinking outside the box.

In addition, I know activated carbon can absorb organics, I wonder since ethanol isn't charged, like the conjugate base of acidic acid, how much of it is being absorbed by the carbon?

 

[Patzig]

I wanna add to Jstn's question. How badly is gac needed when carbon dosing? I think that it can help to bind and get rid of excess organics that are created by the carbon dosing...right? So is gac needed when carbon dosing (specifically vinegar for me) or is strong skimming enough?