Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing
- Thread starter tmz
- Start date
Hi TMZ thanks for all the information provided. has been a good read. i wanted to ask some tank specific questions about bio pellets
my tank is a 5x2.5x2 sps dominated.
all water parameters are in check with both po4 and no3 at or very close to 0
i am thinking of introducing bio pellets not so much as a nutrient reduction system but more as a food supply system. would this be at all effective?
i have read that excess bacteria/bi products get skimmed out but also provide food for sps and spongers etc alike. how effective would this be at providing a constant food source for my tank. is there anything else i could do in conjuction with bio pellets to increase the effectiveness of this
thanks from down under
Kell
my tank is a 5x2.5x2 sps dominated.
all water parameters are in check with both po4 and no3 at or very close to 0
i am thinking of introducing bio pellets not so much as a nutrient reduction system but more as a food supply system. would this be at all effective?
i have read that excess bacteria/bi products get skimmed out but also provide food for sps and spongers etc alike. how effective would this be at providing a constant food source for my tank. is there anything else i could do in conjuction with bio pellets to increase the effectiveness of this
thanks from down under
Kell
SkiFletch
New member
So Tom, what you're telling me is, that it's time to get my fish drunk? 
.
My own tank has never had a measurable PO4 issue although it does have decent NO3 (usually in the 5-10ppm range). Along with those inorganic readings, I have perenially struggled with green nuisance algae. Obviously it's been keeping my PO4 in check through it's own growth, but as you mention, it is pretty good at out-competing my corals for real estate and my tank struggles a bit as a result. So over the years I've been slowly trying methods of nutrient export to try and win the battle with green algae. First up, the lit refugium off-cycle made it from unbearable hair algae to tolerable. Then GFO primarily for PO4 export and it does indeed help keep nuisance algae at bay even more so, although not eliminated. Basically it helps slow down my period of time between manual removal of it. Addition of limewater topoff also significantly slowed things down to where I'm at now where I really only need to manually clean the rocks every 2 months or so of green algae species. This is tolerable and the corals are growing significantly better, but man would I love to not have to do it at all.
Years ago, I remember this whole carbon dosing thing first crossing my scope of reefkeeping experience and I decided at the time there just wasn't enough experience and more importantly science behind it to warrant attempting it myself. You've re-inspired me though Tom and I'm looking forward to trying this out on my own system to see if carbon dosing can put me over the top so to speak. Would be tremendous if I could even cut back on GFO usage as it's expensive, complex, pita, etc. You have my thanks, even if it doesn't work
. My own tank has never had a measurable PO4 issue although it does have decent NO3 (usually in the 5-10ppm range). Along with those inorganic readings, I have perenially struggled with green nuisance algae. Obviously it's been keeping my PO4 in check through it's own growth, but as you mention, it is pretty good at out-competing my corals for real estate and my tank struggles a bit as a result. So over the years I've been slowly trying methods of nutrient export to try and win the battle with green algae. First up, the lit refugium off-cycle made it from unbearable hair algae to tolerable. Then GFO primarily for PO4 export and it does indeed help keep nuisance algae at bay even more so, although not eliminated. Basically it helps slow down my period of time between manual removal of it. Addition of limewater topoff also significantly slowed things down to where I'm at now where I really only need to manually clean the rocks every 2 months or so of green algae species. This is tolerable and the corals are growing significantly better, but man would I love to not have to do it at all.
Years ago, I remember this whole carbon dosing thing first crossing my scope of reefkeeping experience and I decided at the time there just wasn't enough experience and more importantly science behind it to warrant attempting it myself. You've re-inspired me though Tom and I'm looking forward to trying this out on my own system to see if carbon dosing can put me over the top so to speak. Would be tremendous if I could even cut back on GFO usage as it's expensive, complex, pita, etc. You have my thanks, even if it doesn't work
GeorgeMonnatJr
New member
Tom, I want to echo the many "thank you"s and "well done" comments. In USN terms, Bravo Zulu. :celeb3:
The timing is perfect as I started looking at why people dosed yesterday and saw your (this) thread today.
I've been bolus dosing with a 5L DIY dripper using
to boost calcium, alkalinity and pH. My understanding is that the vinegar use in this case allows supersaturation of the kalk, but the bacteria still metabolizes the acetate as if the kalk wasn't involved, right? I'm just trying to confirm that the 45ml of vinegar counts toward the total vinegar/vodka dose for carbon and isn't "used up" or "deactivated" in the interactions with the kalkwasser.
The timing is perfect as I started looking at why people dosed yesterday and saw your (this) thread today.
I've been bolus dosing with a 5L DIY dripper using
[URL=http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php#6]Dr. Holmes-Farley[/URL] said:
to boost calcium, alkalinity and pH. My understanding is that the vinegar use in this case allows supersaturation of the kalk, but the bacteria still metabolizes the acetate as if the kalk wasn't involved, right? I'm just trying to confirm that the 45ml of vinegar counts toward the total vinegar/vodka dose for carbon and isn't "used up" or "deactivated" in the interactions with the kalkwasser.
Thankyou Howard. Look foprward t omore discussions with you. Yes, Clear water is a nice plus from organic carbon dosing.
Hi Kell.
The bacteria colonizes the bio pellets which e plymers( carbohydrates) . Some breaks off and floats about . Some monomers and other things release into the water too which could feed some bacterial activity there. In my opinion. using a soluble source like vodka or vinegar would be more widespread as a food chain sourcesince they go into the water drectly. Both the ethanol and acetic acid are closer in terms of degardation to acetae which is also useful to living things.
Go Navy. Thanks I was An Airforce ROTC guy in College and then wound up in Army Intelligence, long story , but never made it to the Navy.
Yes the vinegar cose to boost kalk saturation counts as organic carbon dosed ;same as if it's directly dosed. In your example would count as 45 ml of vinegar or roughly 5.6 ml of vodka.
48 ml per gallon of kalk water is the most vinegar that you can use to increase calcium hydroxide(kalk) saturation ; that amount increases max saturation by 36% from 2 tsps per gallon to 2.72 tsps per gallon.. Any vinegar you add over 48ml per gallon of kallkwater will not increase saturation; 36% is as far as you can go but more than 48 ml will still provide more organic carbon.
Many start the kalk boosting process with less than the full 48ml. 1/4 of that,ie 12 ml with a corresponding boost in kalk saturation of only 9%, ie 2.18 tsps per gallon is recommended to avoid bacterial blooms and shockto the system from rapidlyclearing water , precipitous nutrient level drops, etc. . It can be amped up to the full 48ml and 2.72 stsps over a few weeks if you want based on lyour observation of teh tank, ph, NO3 and POI4 levels as wel and you calcium ande alk levels. Some go 48 off the bat but I'm cautious. There is an excellent write up on the chemistry and technique in the" Reef Aqaurium Vol 3", by Sprung and Delbeek, with cites from Bingman ,somewhere around page 216 IIRC.
Lubecky
New member
Hi Tom, Great thread! I have been vodka dosing for about 2 months now> I have a 30 gal SPS reef and up to .8ml twice a day of vodka. If I add the vinegar and sugar solution to the vodka what would you say the reduction in daily dosage should be? .4ml twice a day? I dont think .8 ml is the sweet spot yet but have been taking it slow
Sugar has been a problem for me andothers with coral browning and recession and mortality in some cases, so I don't use it. Just vodka and vinegar.
Equivalents in terms of carbon content would be approximately 1gram of sugar(no water)= 2.5 ml 80 proof vodka( which is 40% ehtanol and 60% water) = 20ml vinegar(which is 5% acetic acid and 95% water. If you need more precison you can look up the chemcial formulas for each and count the carbon atoms but those approixmations are close enough to use.
Equivalents in terms of carbon content would be approximately 1gram of sugar(no water)= 2.5 ml 80 proof vodka( which is 40% ehtanol and 60% water) = 20ml vinegar(which is 5% acetic acid and 95% water. If you need more precison you can look up the chemcial formulas for each and count the carbon atoms but those approixmations are close enough to use.
The total amount of organic carbon you need is going to depend on your tank. Lot's of variables from tank totank.
So, if you are still in the process of upping the dose you can just add the vinegar to increase it . If you are at a dose that works for you, you can substitute vinegar for vodka at rate of 8x the amount of vodka deleted.
FWIW, I find the equivalent of 34 ml vokda( ie 26 ml, 80 proof vodka, and 64 ml vinegar,standard 5% acetic acid vinegar, dailly for 600 gallons about right fo my tank) That's ,approximately 0.057 ml of vodka equivalents or 0.45 vinegar equivalents per gallon. For a 30 gallon . Your vodka dose is currently about half that,30gallons dived by .8ml =.02666 vodka per gallon) so you may have room for more but may not depending on your tank.
So, if you are still in the process of upping the dose you can just add the vinegar to increase it . If you are at a dose that works for you, you can substitute vinegar for vodka at rate of 8x the amount of vodka deleted.
FWIW, I find the equivalent of 34 ml vokda( ie 26 ml, 80 proof vodka, and 64 ml vinegar,standard 5% acetic acid vinegar, dailly for 600 gallons about right fo my tank) That's ,approximately 0.057 ml of vodka equivalents or 0.45 vinegar equivalents per gallon. For a 30 gallon . Your vodka dose is currently about half that,30gallons dived by .8ml =.02666 vodka per gallon) so you may have room for more but may not depending on your tank.
Some more q&a: Here are a couple of posts of mine on a current thread in the Reef Chemistry forum.
<table id="post20097369" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt2" style="border: 1px solid #FFFFFF; border-top: 0px; border-bottom: 0px" width="175">
</td><td class="alt1" id="td_post_20097369" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> And it led me to wonder is there a best method to promote this anaerobic activity?
Lot's of methods. I use several, cryptic refugia with extra live rock, shallow sand and live rock in the tanks,a remote deep sandbed with live rock on top in ambient light and vodka and vinegar dosing.
I wonder how big of an area is required to make a dent in nutrients in a system????
Denitrifying bacteria are facultative heterotrophs. They can create their own hypoxic areas in the biofilm as Cliff noted or at variable depths in substrate or on rock and switch from free oxygen once they use it up locally to the oxygen from nitrate. this leaves Free N to join up with N aand form N2 ( notrogen gas ) which bubbles out of the tank. They also show up in the water column. They also consume some nitrogen for biomass (call it for food) in both aerobic and anaerobic activity. They grow throughout my system but gather up in low flow areas,like the cryptic refugium
( a brute can full of live rock).
Cannister filters are great aerobic proccessors of ammonia, hence the undeserved reputation of being nitrate factories. What prevents them from taking the next step and becoming anaerobic processors? Is it as simple as needing a carbon source?
They also grow in the fluval canister filter I use for granulated activated carbon and purigen; without any ceramics or other media . Occasionally , some will appear in the seahorse tank which has no croals in it and lesser flow than other tanks in the system. I keep a couple of sponge pads in the fluval canister filter which accumulate masses of them as a snotty slime within a 2 week period. The sponges help keep the carbon from becoming blocked up as quickly as otherwise.
How are biopellets able to promote this activity? Is the activity occuring in the biopellet reactor or in the live rock?
The pellets are ploymers( carbohydrates) and were introduced with claims that the bacteria would localize on the pellets creating hypoxic areas there and not enter the tank. While they colonize and consume the pellets as an organic carbon source ; it has become clear ,disappointingly , that the bacteria fed by the pellets and their by products move into the water column too as evidenced by bacterial blooms and other difficulties folks are having with these polymers. I prefer soluable less complex sources ie vodka and vinegar.
I'm wondering if this film of bacteria was doing a better job of nitrate and phosphate export than brand new GFO?
Gfo does not export nitrate. The bacteria consume some for their biomass particularly phosholipids in their membranes. The bacteria are skimmable.PO4 and Nitrate are not.Often lesser amounts of gfo are used to pick up on some PO4 that may not be used in balance with nitrate in the processes involved in organic carbon dosing.
Just saw the term sulfur denitrators, too. Have to look that up as well but seems a little too involved.
DIy'd one , used it to take down nitrates for m 80ppm to near
0 in 5 weeks. Troubles with hydrogen sufide production once the nitrate is down led me to start vodka dosing over 3yers ago . I haven't needed the sulfur denitrator since.
I have seen a plenum on a beautiful reef tank locally.
Where? I'd like to see it and hear some details about it.
Thanks for the comment on my tanks.
Any thoughts or links to more reading for my education are appreciated.
There is a thread on the URS forum on organic carbon dosing, if you haven't seen it,you may find it useful:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2134105
There are also close to a hundred if not more threads here on the Reef Chemistry forum on bio pellets, vodka ,vinegar ,etc. The DIY foum has a good one on sulfur dentirators but it's huge.I think you will find one on coil dinitrators on the DIy forum too.
__________________
Tom
Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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</td><td class="alt1" id="td_post_20097369" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> And it led me to wonder is there a best method to promote this anaerobic activity?
Lot's of methods. I use several, cryptic refugia with extra live rock, shallow sand and live rock in the tanks,a remote deep sandbed with live rock on top in ambient light and vodka and vinegar dosing.
I wonder how big of an area is required to make a dent in nutrients in a system????
Denitrifying bacteria are facultative heterotrophs. They can create their own hypoxic areas in the biofilm as Cliff noted or at variable depths in substrate or on rock and switch from free oxygen once they use it up locally to the oxygen from nitrate. this leaves Free N to join up with N aand form N2 ( notrogen gas ) which bubbles out of the tank. They also show up in the water column. They also consume some nitrogen for biomass (call it for food) in both aerobic and anaerobic activity. They grow throughout my system but gather up in low flow areas,like the cryptic refugium
( a brute can full of live rock).
Cannister filters are great aerobic proccessors of ammonia, hence the undeserved reputation of being nitrate factories. What prevents them from taking the next step and becoming anaerobic processors? Is it as simple as needing a carbon source?
They also grow in the fluval canister filter I use for granulated activated carbon and purigen; without any ceramics or other media . Occasionally , some will appear in the seahorse tank which has no croals in it and lesser flow than other tanks in the system. I keep a couple of sponge pads in the fluval canister filter which accumulate masses of them as a snotty slime within a 2 week period. The sponges help keep the carbon from becoming blocked up as quickly as otherwise.
How are biopellets able to promote this activity? Is the activity occuring in the biopellet reactor or in the live rock?
The pellets are ploymers( carbohydrates) and were introduced with claims that the bacteria would localize on the pellets creating hypoxic areas there and not enter the tank. While they colonize and consume the pellets as an organic carbon source ; it has become clear ,disappointingly , that the bacteria fed by the pellets and their by products move into the water column too as evidenced by bacterial blooms and other difficulties folks are having with these polymers. I prefer soluable less complex sources ie vodka and vinegar.
I'm wondering if this film of bacteria was doing a better job of nitrate and phosphate export than brand new GFO?
Gfo does not export nitrate. The bacteria consume some for their biomass particularly phosholipids in their membranes. The bacteria are skimmable.PO4 and Nitrate are not.Often lesser amounts of gfo are used to pick up on some PO4 that may not be used in balance with nitrate in the processes involved in organic carbon dosing.
Just saw the term sulfur denitrators, too. Have to look that up as well but seems a little too involved.
DIy'd one , used it to take down nitrates for m 80ppm to near
0 in 5 weeks. Troubles with hydrogen sufide production once the nitrate is down led me to start vodka dosing over 3yers ago . I haven't needed the sulfur denitrator since.
I have seen a plenum on a beautiful reef tank locally.
Where? I'd like to see it and hear some details about it.
Thanks for the comment on my tanks.
Any thoughts or links to more reading for my education are appreciated.
There is a thread on the URS forum on organic carbon dosing, if you haven't seen it,you may find it useful:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2134105
There are also close to a hundred if not more threads here on the Reef Chemistry forum on bio pellets, vodka ,vinegar ,etc. The DIY foum has a good one on sulfur dentirators but it's huge.I think you will find one on coil dinitrators on the DIy forum too.
__________________
Tom
Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=122657
</td><td class="alt1" id="td_post_20097398" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> Cannister filters are great aerobic proccessors of ammonia, hence the undeserved reputation of being nitrate factories.
A canister filter is just a box with water flowing through it.
It's what's in it that matters in terms of whether or not denitrifying bacteria,the facutative heterotrophs will proliferate to use the nitrate produced by the chemoautotrophic or chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidizers and the nitrite oxidizers.Neither the ammoina oxidizers, nor the nitrite oxidizers require organic carbon. The denitrifiers do.
Maximum surface area,like ceramic media ,bioballs, etc exposed to high flow whether in a canister filter or trickle filter provides an optimal environment for ammonia and nitrate oxidizing bacteria which manufacture nitrate , a nitrate factory, and send it into the water column . In most reef tanks there is an imbalance in available organic carbon relative to the nitrate made in such a factory.
__________________
Tom
Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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</td><td class="thead" style="font-weight:normal; border: 1px solid #FFFFFF; border-left: 0px" align="right"> #12 </td></tr> <tr valign="top"><td class="alt2" style="border: 1px solid #FFFFFF; border-top: 0px; border-bottom: 0px" width="175">
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=122657
</td><td class="alt1" id="td_post_20097398" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> Cannister filters are great aerobic proccessors of ammonia, hence the undeserved reputation of being nitrate factories.
A canister filter is just a box with water flowing through it.
It's what's in it that matters in terms of whether or not denitrifying bacteria,the facutative heterotrophs will proliferate to use the nitrate produced by the chemoautotrophic or chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidizers and the nitrite oxidizers.Neither the ammoina oxidizers, nor the nitrite oxidizers require organic carbon. The denitrifiers do.
Maximum surface area,like ceramic media ,bioballs, etc exposed to high flow whether in a canister filter or trickle filter provides an optimal environment for ammonia and nitrate oxidizing bacteria which manufacture nitrate , a nitrate factory, and send it into the water column . In most reef tanks there is an imbalance in available organic carbon relative to the nitrate made in such a factory.
__________________
Tom
Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Yes daily;
I split the a portion of the vodka dose actually, some in the am and some inthe pm. Bacteria grow quickly and wane quickly in response to organic C levels.
Hi Tom,
In your post :They also grow in the fluval canister filter I use for granulated activated carbon and purigen; without any ceramics or other media . Occasionally , some will appear in the seahorse tank which has no croals in it and lesser flow than other tanks in the system. I keep a couple of sponge pads in the fluval canister filter which accumulate masses of them as a snotty slime within a 2 week period. The sponges help keep the carbon from becoming blocked up as quickly as otherwise.
My question is, I'm vinegar dosing and was having trouble with snotty slime. It was on my live rock, clogging my filter socks, and I assume my GAC. So I cut back the dose,to stop the problem. Is this snotty slime a good thing? Thanks---Rick
In your post :They also grow in the fluval canister filter I use for granulated activated carbon and purigen; without any ceramics or other media . Occasionally , some will appear in the seahorse tank which has no croals in it and lesser flow than other tanks in the system. I keep a couple of sponge pads in the fluval canister filter which accumulate masses of them as a snotty slime within a 2 week period. The sponges help keep the carbon from becoming blocked up as quickly as otherwise.
My question is, I'm vinegar dosing and was having trouble with snotty slime. It was on my live rock, clogging my filter socks, and I assume my GAC. So I cut back the dose,to stop the problem. Is this snotty slime a good thing? Thanks---Rick
Hi Rick,
The snotty slime is bacterial mass..Getting it to grow where you want it and in the right amounts is tricky. Cutting back will reduce it to a point where it's not an issue. More surface areas may help support more of it without it becoming a nuisance. . Each tank is different in terms of optimal dose. Filter socks may not be useable in some sytems. The nutrient level,NO3 and PO4 also influence how much the bacteria grow, As they go down there should be less of the slime.
The snotty slime is bacterial mass..Getting it to grow where you want it and in the right amounts is tricky. Cutting back will reduce it to a point where it's not an issue. More surface areas may help support more of it without it becoming a nuisance. . Each tank is different in terms of optimal dose. Filter socks may not be useable in some sytems. The nutrient level,NO3 and PO4 also influence how much the bacteria grow, As they go down there should be less of the slime.
You are very welcome.
I see what you are saying Tom. Maybe I should pull the filter socks awhile boost the vinegar back up, and let the slime cure itself as NO3 and PO4 drops? I have my NO3 to 0 but only after I took my GAC off-line as I think the slime stuffing it up. I have it in a filter sock in a high flow area of my sump. I was not sure about the slime (how much ect.) if I was over dosing the vinegar. I'll adjust a little and see what happens. In essence the bacteria is a good thing in reducing my PO4. Thanks again---Rick
Good to a point. Getting a balnced bacterial nutrient export colony functioning in the tank is my goal without a stringy mess. The amount you can dose without a mess might need to be supplented with GAC GFO ,etc. The bacteria from organic carbopn dosing are one more tool inthe box. A strong skimmer is critical too but you have to let the bacteria get to it.
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