Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

How to dose organic carbon.
Which organic carbon to use.
Other issues


. This section describes the types of organic carbon being used by aquarists and the techniques ,methods and rationales. It includes facts as well as summary statements of anecdotal experiences posted in the hundreds if not thousands of accounts that I've read over the last five years or so. It also includes my own and personal opinion and preferences. It is intended to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. Thus. it is hoped, enabling the reader to make informed decisions that fit his/her personal preferences .

Organic carbon used:

Type:
Polymers( carbohydrates) these include: bio pellets which are carbohydrate based plastics. There are different types but commercial hobby companies don't tell us what they are using so useful comparisons of pellet types beyond anecdotal accounts are unavailable. .BTW Some folks are using diy polymer plastics

Methods: reactor use, placement in canister filters or good flow areas in sumps are the most prevalent methods.
There are some products that contain tiny beads in liquid that some dose directly to the tank.
Comment and Opinion:
I was excited but skeptical about these when then first hit the market. Mostly because the were claimed to segregate bacterial activity and it's effects to the pellets without braodcasting the activity throughout the tank.
This proved untrue as there are many reports of cyano blooms, coral stress, and bacterial blooms ocurring with them indicative of off pellet activity, ie: monomers are diffusing, bacteria are growing off the pellets and bacterial by products are effecting some systems adversely in terms of cyano growth and coral health. I have not seen a report of long term success with them.There are now a myriad of bio pellet products and equipment to choose from for those who are so inclined.

They are expensive compared to other types.

Equipment is required for most applications adding to the cost and complexity of managing the dosing. In fact a majority of the posts on polymer pellets( aka bio pellets) concern reactor choices flow rates pellet amounts, etc. Disappointingly ,there is little focus on the bacteria culture which is the essence of it all.

It's hard to know or control how much organic carbon you are actually dosing at a given time. Pellets degrade, flow varies , clogs happen, etc.

They are polymers which I personally choose not to dose since a long cascade of bacterial activity some of which may be harmful by different strains occurs in degrading them down to acetate which is a beneficial substance to living things.


Sugar ( fructose, sucrose, glucose).

Polymers are degraded by the first wave of bacterial activity to monomers( sugars) . Sugar dosing has caused coral recession .browning.bleaching and death in a number of accounts and did so in my aquarium . The study noted earlier gives even credence to these anecdotal accounts. I personally have chosen to steer clear of monomers and the polymers that degrade to them. They do seem to work faster to reduce NO3 in the short run than acetic acid or ethanol ,though.

Vodka( ethanol and water):
is a step below monomers in the bacterial cascade known as acetogenesis. It comes from monomers. It does not go back to them but moves on via oxidation to acetic acid vinegar.

Vinegar:
, is acetic acid in water. The acetate is useful to living things. It's degradation is the last step in the cascade likely to occur in a reef tank.

These generic organic( vodka and vinegar ) carbons are:

inexpensive :
$3.50 per gallon plain whit vinegar which is 5% acetic acid
bottom shelf , plain charcoal filtered vodka @ $12.99 for 1.75 liters or 80 proof( ie 40% ethanol)

easy to dose: bolus dosing( ie. pour it into the sump or high flow area), additions to limewater or incrementally dosed via dosing pump;

Add only ethanol and acetic acid without monomers (sugars).

I've had over 3yrs of success in managing PO4 and NO3 and coral health with them.

Vitamin C( ascorbic acid)

is used by some for undefined perceived benefits . It is ,however , a carbon source derived from sugar with similar negative effects reported although the carbon itself may have some short term benefits.

Commercial products and other sources for organic carbon:

There are many forms and mixes. Some folks even advocated plain rice with disastrous results. Commercial mixes don't tell you what's in them. Knowing what I'm putting in the tank is important to me.

Other related issues:

Biodiversity: Some systems trumpet the use of a variety of carbon sources and bacterial supplements to ensure biodiversity in the bacterial populations . First of all, bacteria will be diverse, though some strains will dominate based on the type of food availalbe. For example , those that degrade polymers and monomers will be less in systems relying on ethanol and vinegar. More importantly, though biodiversity sounds good, there is no plausible reason to think it is has been articulated.If you could maintain it which is unlikely given that those using various carbon sources and bacterial supplements must continuously buy and dose the non viable bacteria,; it might easily be a bad thing as with sugars for example.

Supplementing bacteria:
A mostly useless practice and needless expense ,imo. Bacteria are ubiquitous and there are plenty in a reef tank ready and willing to consume organic carbon when it's added. They establish themselves and are viable. Introducing bacterial concoctions may interfere with a very natural and healthy process advisable cultures establish themselves in response to the food( organic carbon) offered.
Bacterial supplements are not useful in my opinion. There are plenty of viable indigenous bacteria in a reef tank that will pick up the task of consuming the organic C when N and P are also adequate.The bacteria in supplements are not viable in a tank. If they were there would be no reason to keep dosing them beyond intiial seeding other than to use more bottles of the concoction.



Complimentary practices:

There is no reason not to use other nutrient management methods with organic carbon dosing.
I run:
Chaeto refugia for some PO4 and NO3 reduction , opposite photo period oxygen and habitat for pods and such;
Cryptic rock filled refugia for surface area , habitat for pods and filter feeders such as sponges ;
A deep sand bed with rock on top.
GFO
GAC and excellent organics remover
Purigen
Skimmers: a must for the the aeration with carbon dosing in particular as well as the bacteria export.


Phosphate and nitrate imbalance:

The bacteria encourage by the organic carbon reduce nitrogen by taking some of it as food along with a proportionate amount of phosphate. However, they also deplete additional NO3 via anaerobic respiration wherein they take the O leaving some of the N to form N2 gas which bubbles out of the tank. This may lead to a situation where some extra low range PO4 is left which can be cleaned up with a little gfo or other remover.

How much to dose:

To iterate: if NO3 and PO4 levels in your aquarium are not an issue and other methods are working in your situation , then no dosing is needed.
The amount needed to maintain acceptable nutrient levels will vary from aquarium to aquarium as will imports, exports and other variables such as bioload, surface area, water change schedules, et alia.
Not all sources are of equal strength in terms of carbon content . The molecular structures are similar enough to generally equate them but if you want more precision checking teh formulas for a carbon source acan tell you precisely how many C atoms each contains. As a practical matter dilution should be accounted for . Thus vinegar which is 95% water is 8x weaker than 80 proof vodka which is 60 % water and 20x weaker than an anhydrous source like sugar or granular vitamin C. So if you are switching from vodka to vinegar for example , 8 mls of vinegar for each ml of vodka being replaced is the calculation. Likewise, 1 gram of sugar would be replaced by 20 ml of vinegar or 8 ml of vodka.

Finding the right dose for your aquarium is a matte of amping up slowly and monitoring NO3 and PO4 along the way.
I recommend reducing NO3 an PO4 before starting and then finding and implementing a maintenance dose.
 
Tom -
I'm currently on Week#5 of the vinegar dosing plan so far and things seem to be improving. I need to chart my NO3 and P04 better though since I am dosing vinegar at the same time as running ~3L of biopellets in 3 reactors in the sump as well.

I'm definitely getting alot of dark skimmate out of my EV180 and TurboFlotor Multi on a daily basis with an increased sponge population as you mentioned.

Ellery
 
Tom-

So, looking at your stats...

You have ~300G of waste-producing elements in your system, with around 300G of "Sump" space.

I also realize you have a TON of Biology you're supporting in that 300G. But, for those of us interested, can you tell us what amount of Vodka you dose daily/weekly? (I know with my 120G, and a lot less Bioload, I'll be far smaller amounts, and each tank will vary in it's exact composition, etc.)

I'm just trying to get a gauge as to where to start, and if it's something I'm comfy trying.

-Andy


PS: If bad things happen to my tank, can I drink the Vodka instead?
 
Tom, I'm looking forward to your comments on spiked kalkwasser. I spike mine with about 15ml vinegar/gallon. I've read recommendations of up to 15ml per liter, but have never gone that high myself. I don't think that what I'm adding makes a huge difference for NO3 and PO4, but it seems to be enough to keep my aqua lifter pump and lines from accumulating buildup and clogging.

Hi , Finally time to answer questions and respond to comments.

For those who want to dose vodka or vinegar for the organic carbon with an auto doser, dilution can be an issue especially for vodka as small amounts are dosed. Vinegar is 5% acetic acid and 95% water. At that level the ph is such that bacteria don't grow. If it's heavily diluted the bacteria will proliferate right in the dosing reservoir consuming the vinegar . The same is true for vodka( 80 proof is 40% ethanol) where the alcohol concentration keeps the bacteria at bay.
The ph of limewater( around 12.4 at full saturation) also thwarts the opportunistic bacteria .So it can serve as a dosing pool for the organic carbon source as well the alkalinity and calcium from the calcium hydroxide. Some use a vinegar or vodka or both in an auto top off mixed with limewater.
The vinegar should be dosed primarily during periods of photosynthesis as it adds a lot of CO2 quickly which makes it a little tricky to use it in an ato set up .

Limewater calcium hydroxide staruation levels can be increased by up to 36% by adding vinegar . With 48ml of vinegar per gallon of ro water the saturation level goes from 2 tsps per gallon to 2.72 tsps per gallon. A recommended starting level is 12ml per gallon to avoid overdosing organic carbon early on . At 12 ml of vinegar per gallon of ro water the saturation level goes to 2.09tsps per gallon. Adding a little extra calcium hydroxide powder is ok as it will settle out but to keep the ph high(12.4) and maximize the calcium and alkalinity dose at least 2.09 tsps should be added when 12 ml of vinegar are added on up to 2.72 tsps with a little extra when 48ml are added. Beyond 48ml extra vinegar will not raise saturation levels further.

Adding vodka to limewater will not increase saturation levels nor will it interact with vinegar if both are added.
 
Excellent writing Tom.

One of the thoughts on my mind lately is nutrients and the effect on how "good" corals appear in our aquariums. Reflecting on the last few years I'm starting to believe that having sufficient nutrients in a system is vital for corals to flourish - on the other hand i struggle with numerous articles which talk about coral reefs being low nutrient environments. Even more intriguing is that these high bio-load glass cage systems (like yours) maintain low nitrates and phosphates in what I suspect is a nutrient rich environment. In part this is appears to be the result of carbon dosing.

When i see SPS tanks with excellent coloration and growth there always seems to be a medium to large bio-load in the tank (fish). I have seen less tanks that look this good without a significant bio load.

I'm curious as to
(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)
(2) if these are actually in abundance in coral reefs, however are not visible due to the exchanges occurring with symbiotic relationships?
(3) how we can evaluate our level of "nutrient richness" be it direct, or indirect?
(4) how the nitrogen cycle plays into this
(5) is it possible for us [or should we even] consider introducing N and P in low bio-load systems?

sorry if these questions are naive :)

One of the thoughts on my mind lately is nutrients and the effect on how "good" corals appear in our aquariums. Reflecting on the last few years I'm starting to believe that having sufficient nutrients in a system is vital for corals to flourish - on the other hand i struggle with numerous articles which talk about coral reefs being low nutrient environments. Even more intriguing is that these high bio-load glass cage systems (like yours) maintain low nitrates and phosphates in what I suspect is a nutrient rich environment. In part this is appears to be the result of carbon dosing.

When i see SPS tanks with excellent coloration and growth there always seems to be a medium to large bio-load in the tank (fish). I have seen less tanks that look this good without a significant bio load.

While upper reefs have very low nutrients( .005ppm PO4 ,.2ppm NO3) they are constant as upwelling thorugh the reef brings up nutrients via advective flow . They never get too high but they are always there in forms useful to the organisms living there. That wouldn't happen in a tank where the nurtients were stripped to 0 .Thus some systems rely on a plethora of supplements. Take it all out and then dose some back as aminos and other supplements. Some folks actually dose nitrate m usually as K NO3( potassium nitrate).
All corals require N an P an some organic C. An acro might meet 98% of it's need for organic C via photosynthesis by it's symbiont zooxanthelae while a cataphyllia ( elegance) or scolymia or blastomssa from deeper more turbid water might need much more than 2%. But they all need some either from feeding or absorbtion. Coral foods can meet these needs for corals that have a feeding response;not all of them do( xenia, anthelia, and zoanthus for example).
Fish waste from feces, urine and respired ammonia provides C,N and P in particulate and dissolved forms.. The trick is to keep the nutrients coming and going without letting them get too high thus fueling nuisance algae and cyano bacteria or causing coral stress by interference with calcification or over driving zooxanthelae..
This can be accomplished,ime, with measured organic carbon dosing combined with organic export methods,such as skimming and GAC suited to the specific needs of a specific aquarium. I feed a ton about 2.5 ounces of frozen food per day plus a little flake and nori. No mechanical filtration is in use ; particulates move round and round until they are consumed by fish microfauna, corals or other organisms or skimmed out.
The organic carbon dosing not only adds useful oragnic C and acetate it also keeps a healthy number of heterotrophic bacteria going to consume excess C, N and P. It's a balancing act between import and export of C,N and P in bio available forms.My target is to maintain an environment with the nutrient levels matching the consumption and export rates with some degree of constancy.
I'm confident there is always something to eat or absorb around even though daily testing of PO4 has consistently come in at .03 to .05ppm and weekly tests of NO3 show about .2ppm.

(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)

N enters the organic food web as cyanobacteria and related diazotrophs uniquely produce and enzyme called nitrogenase which breaks the bond between two bonded N atoms(N2 nitrogen gas) Once the bond is broken in the presence of water some of the N bonds with H and you have the organic. Without cyano and it's relatives( thetrue prinmordial slime) there would be no life. Fortunately, there are thousands of species of cyano and it is is everywhere ,even polar bear coats, there is a trace of moisture, CO2 even and for most species light although a few are chemoautorophic. Once N is fixed in the food chain it goes through the nitrogen cycle( ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and back to N2) to get back out ,contributing the energy it holds in it's bonds to life along the way, as bacteria strip the energry via catalized elctron transfers at the various steps. There are other processes of N reduction like ammanox but they go beyond this thread and likely don't occur in a reef tank,imo.

More on your other question a little later Pascal.
 
Man To you are such a wealth of knowledge. I just need google to come up with a tmz translator chemistry is a foreign language to me
 
Thanks, JFL. Gald to stop and translate along the way .If something is or confusing let me know.
 
Back to Pascal's(Blurry's) queries:

I'm curious as to
(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)
(2) if these are actually in abundance in coral reefs, however are not visible due to the exchanges occurring with symbiotic relationships?
(3) how we can evaluate our level of "nutrient richness" be it direct, or indirect?
(4) how the nitrogen cycle plays into this
(5) is it possible for us [or should we even] consider introducing N and P in low bio-load systems?

I think (1) re the N part ,(2) , (4) and (5) have been responded to in post #25.

So:

(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)

Inorganic phospahte( aka PO4 species, Pi or orthophosphate) enters the aquarium as an organic, primarily as food. It degrades to inorganic phospahte. There is also some in supplements,some in non di source water and some from dissolving aragonite, particulary if a calcium reactor is used. While organisms use it ;they don't use very much and expel most of it that they consume in foods,so wether the food is eaten or not most of the PO4 winds up in the water.

(3) how we can evaluate our level of "nutrient richness" be it direct, or indirect?

Testing for N as ammonia nitrite or nitrate. Testing for PO4 . Monitoring the aquarium for nusisnce alge growth and overall coral health.
 
Tom-

So, looking at your stats...

You have ~300G of waste-producing elements in your system, with around 300G of "Sump" space.

I also realize you have a TON of Biology you're supporting in that 300G. But, for those of us interested, can you tell us what amount of Vodka you dose daily/weekly? (I know with my 120G, and a lot less Bioload, I'll be far smaller amounts, and each tank will vary in it's exact composition, etc.)

I'm just trying to get a gauge as to where to start, and if it's something I'm comfy trying.

-Andy


PS: If bad things happen to my tank, can I drink the Vodka instead?

There are 300gallons of display tanks . 185 gallons of the reamining 300gallons are frag g tanks packed with corals .They also have fed fish, Ther are also about 60 gallons of the remaining 115 gallons containing refugia which produce algaes ,pods, sponges ,filter feeders, etc. Details are here:November Tank of the Month

I dose 26 ml of vodka and 64 ml of vinegar per day.That's equivalent in carbon centent to 34ml of vodka or 272 ml of vinegar for the 600 gallons of water volume , roghly .45ml of vinegar equivalents per gallon of water volume. Istarte at about 25% of that and worked up over the intial months. If I go higher I see bacterial strings in the water . If I go lower I ee a bit of microalge . I like bolus dosing split into 2 daily doses ( about 75% of it in the am and the remainder in the pm). Tanks are different in many ways including: bioload, inputs of nutrients, surface area ,and many more variables; so a one size fits all dosing amount is not reliable;though several accounts I've read settle in around the .5ml per gallon vinegar equivalent level..

IMO, it's useful to reduce nitrates and phosphates before starting to dose organic carbon so the top dose established accounts for inputs and not left overs.

This article "Vodka Distilled" is geared to vodka dosing. It offers a safe amp up method. The vodka doses suggested can be used for vinegar by simply multiplying them by 8:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php
 
No mechanical filtration is in use ; particulates move round and round until they are consumed by fish microfauna, corals or other organisms or skimmed out.
The organic carbon dosing not only adds useful oragnic C and acetate it also keeps a healthy number of heterotrophic bacteria going to consume excess C, N and P. It's a balancing act between import and export of C,N and P in bio available forms.My target is to maintain an environment with the nutrient levels matching the consumption and export rates with some degree of constancy.
I'm confident there is always something to eat or absorb around even though daily testing of PO4 has consistently come in at .03 to .05ppm and weekly tests of NO3 show about .2ppm.

Hi Tom, Thanks for all your input, I like some others have trouble grasping the technical information, but your explanations help, and the more I read the better. You say that you don't use mechanical filtration? Like filter socks? My tank is in my family room, which gets lot of sun light through out the day. I had a very bad algae problem on the tank glass and I can say I have it in a 100% remission from two things. I have been dose vinegar about 2 months now, in a dose amount of approximately 3/4 ml. of vinegar @ gallon of tank water(seems to be the sweet spot). Also after reading the long Algaefix thread, I have been using it also @ the directions of dosing every 3rd day. You have me thinking of pulling my filter socks, as they plug up almost daily from the vinegar bacteria(slime) that grows on them. The only other thing is I have a large amount of particles suspended in my water column that I think is the end results of the algae die off. I hope this clears soon. I'm going to start cutting back the vinegar and Algaefix to a lower dose and watch and see. Hay sorry for the long post, the no mechanical filtration thing caught my eye.---Rick
 
Hi Rick,

I don't know much about the algae fix,I've readmost of the thread on it. I'm generally skeptical about it. Getting phosphate down and keeping it down is a sure way to kill off green microalgae. Some gfo could help. It might take some time( weeksto months) if the rock and substrate have some stickingto it from previous exposure. FWIW my display tanks get lots of sunlight from windows and a sky light. I don't hink it has much if anything to do with nuisance algae growth and sunlight is beneficial ,imo.

I just prefer not to mess with the socks or other mechanical filtrrtion unless I'm cleaning out a tank or otherwise suspend an inordinate amount of particulates . Good skimming, gac and organic carbon dosing deal with it all quite nicely in my system. Good luck.
 
Again Tom thanks for the input. In my tank I currently have all my rock out and in the basement cooking in the dark, as I know it was leaching a lot of PO4. The back of my tank was covered in green algae that was so tuff I could not even scrape it off. I only have a few fish right now so they get fed once a day. The algae on the glass is gone completely, so my plan is to lower my vinegar dose and stop the Algaefix. I have to say I think the Algaefix was the contributing factor as I am on my 6th dose and the algae is gone. I could see it deteriorating on a daily basis. I'm going to keep adjusting my vinegar and try to keep the algae from coming back with vinegar only. I have GFO, but not on line now.
 
Tom,
Just checking this. You are using a little over a cup of vinegar for your 600 gallon set up? Also, I use algeafix in my 2500 gallon koi pond. Works great to kill algea on the waterfall. That stuff is real strong. Just 6 oz of that will do my whole pond. Would be nervous in a much smaller environment with corals. Thanks for all the helpful information.
 
So if I am reading correctly vodka and vinegar are the carbon dosing methods you are in favor of but one should shy away from sugar. I have been dosing a mostly SPS with a few lps and a couple of softies only vodka for the past couple of years. This is a 29 gallon biocube with 2 clowns, 2 damsels, 1 sixline and a bali tiger jawfish. I feed once per day and alternate between the standard frozen foods, pellets, and flakes. My dosing is 1ml of vodka in the morning and 1ml at night. I have no algae and my sps are growing. I am running an AquaIlluminations SOL super blue LED. My N and P are for the most part undetectable. I am wondering here if the addition of vinegar would do anything to really help the color of the SPS pop some more. They do have color but nothing like I have seen in some tanks using a dosing regime. My other question would be am I limiting the bacteria to a dominant strain and would the addition of vinegar help to increase another strain helping again to increase color?
 
Paul I use 26 ml of 80proof vodka vodka which is equivalent to 208 ml of vinegar and 64 ml of vinegar .So ,yes the equivalent of 272 ml of vinegar for teh 600 gallons daliy. Vinegar is 95% water ,so it's only 13.6 ml of acetic acid for th 272 ml of vinegar.
 
So if I am reading correctly vodka and vinegar are the carbon dosing methods you are in favor of but one should shy away from sugar. I have been dosing a mostly SPS with a few lps and a couple of softies only vodka for the past couple of years. This is a 29 gallon biocube with 2 clowns, 2 damsels, 1 sixline and a bali tiger jawfish. I feed once per day and alternate between the standard frozen foods, pellets, and flakes. My dosing is 1ml of vodka in the morning and 1ml at night. I have no algae and my sps are growing. I am running an AquaIlluminations SOL super blue LED. My N and P are for the most part undetectable. I am wondering here if the addition of vinegar would do anything to really help the color of the SPS pop some more. They do have color but nothing like I have seen in some tanks using a dosing regime. My other question would be am I limiting the bacteria to a dominant strain and would the addition of vinegar help to increase another strain helping again to increase color?

I started with just vodka. Switched to part vinegar to abate some cyano as a number of folks observed less cyano with vinegar. I have none now. I've been using it in that mix for 3 years now. Don't know if it vinegar would help color more or less than vodka.. The vodka oxidizes to acetic acid( vinegar) anyway but vinegar may provide more soluble acetate faster and that may be useful. I just don't know about vinegar enhancing color but I suspect not.
 
Back to Pascal's(Blurry's) queries:

I'm curious as to
(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)
(2) if these are actually in abundance in coral reefs, however are not visible due to the exchanges occurring with symbiotic relationships?
(3) how we can evaluate our level of "nutrient richness" be it direct, or indirect?
(4) how the nitrogen cycle plays into this
(5) is it possible for us [or should we even] consider introducing N and P in low bio-load systems?

I think (1) re the N part ,(2) , (4) and (5) have been responded to in post #25.

So:

(1) the source of N & P (inorganic)

Inorganic phospahte( aka PO4 species, Pi or orthophosphate) enters the aquarium as an organic, primarily as food. It degrades to inorganic phospahte. There is also some in supplements,some in non di source water and some from dissolving aragonite, particulary if a calcium reactor is used. While organisms use it ;they don't use very much and expel most of it that they consume in foods,so wether the food is eaten or not most of the PO4 winds up in the water.

(3) how we can evaluate our level of "nutrient richness" be it direct, or indirect?

Testing for N as ammonia nitrite or nitrate. Testing for PO4 . Monitoring the aquarium for nusisnce alge growth and overall coral health.

thanks for the great thread & answers to questions. I will be moving to carbon dosing along with increased feedings, hopefully with the end result of better colors with SPS. Threads like this are a great asset to the community.

thank you for your help.
 
thanks for the great thread & answers to questions. I will be moving to carbon dosing along with increased feedings, hopefully with the end result of better colors with SPS. Threads like this are a great asset to the community.

thank you for your help.

+10 Thanks Tom.
 
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