Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[tmz]

I should have noted acetic acid is hydrophilic ; it's attracted stongly to the water not the GAC like hydrophobic molecules are. Using it or not using it doesn't affect the dosing level I need to maintain the same level of PO4 and NO3 with or without GAC in use. So while it's helpping to control the total organic content of the water and clearing out some organics including many that have no more useful energy ( refractory types) it's not shorting the heterotrophic bacteria that consume the acetate.

 

[kissman]

Thanks

 

[007Bond]

I should have noted acetic acid is hydrophilic ; it's attracted stongly to the water not the GAC like hydrophobic molecules are. Using it or not using it doesn't affect the dosing level I need to maintain the same level of PO4 and NO3 with or without GAC in use. So while it's helpping to control the total organic content of the water and clearing out some organics including many that have no more useful energy ( refractory types) it's not shorting the heterotrophic bacteria that consume the acetate.

Very good info. Thanks Tom!

 

[tmz]

You are welcome.

BTW, vodka/ethanol is also hydrophilic.Many brands are charcoal filtered.

Sometimes, the benthic bacteria colonize the surface of GAC . This activity when it occurs may limit the GAC surface area in direct contact with th water ;thus, limiting the exposure of binding sites to organics in the water. So, more frequent changes of GAC in smaller amounts than usual may be necessary in systems dosed with organic carbon to keep a steady flow through it an dmaximize the GAC's effectiveness. Mine did that for a period of time;not much any longer. I ran the carbon through an old fluval filter box . When I added a sponge filter, the bacteria grew there and left the carbon relatively free of bacterial mass. In the BRS reactor I run there is only scant evidence of bacteria colonizing the GAC. My system includes several refugia with rocks and sand though which I suspect gives them plenty of other places to grow.

 

[b7fig]

Ok, from my posts on page 23, I went ahead and added a 2nd 55 gal drum to make a mixing station. I have 165 gallons of actual water in my system. I've been dosing NOPOX for almost 2 months now following Tom's dosage amounts and have done 3 - 55 gallon water changes in the last 4 days and my nitrates have barely dropped from 50, maybe 40 to 45! When is either the nopox or the water changes going to get my numbers to drop???

My back is killing me from carrying all these jugs.

 

[tmz]

My response to your post on pg 23.

20ml of NOPOx equals about 15 ml of vodka as estimated based on calculations on another thread in the chemistry forum.
My combined dose of vodka and vinegar equals about 46ml of vodka for 650 gallons . You have about .25 ot the water volume which would be about 11.5 ml of vodka or roughly 15 ml NOPOX for an equivalent dose to mine. If I go higher than the 46( actually 36 vodka and 80 vinegar) I get some snotty material which I like to avoid. Each tank is different. It can tanke months to drop 50 ppm nitrate . Getting it down to a more manageable level via a series of water changes or a sulfur dentirator can speed it all up and the organic carbon will then maintain it ,keeping up with inputs.

I'd save my back and wait it out . It can take months for the nitrates to fall when you start with them high. I've read cases where it took over 6 months . Water changes can adjust the baseline but may not be worth the effort. I used a diy sufur dentirator when I started. The good news is the bacteria are taking out the ammonia cutting nitrate production as evident by the visible growth . Given the appearance of the slime I'd consider cutting back on the dose a bit. Cleaning out any detritus accumulations can help O3 levels too if your back is up to it.

 

[b7fig]

Thanks Tom, when you responded a few weeks ago, I dropped my dose down to the 15 ml you recommended. The slime in my sump went away, just a little in by GAC reactor.

I was just hoping with the large water changes and having already been dosing for almost 2 months i would see a bigger drop. Nothing like busting your *** with these jugs just to see your test kit glowing as soon as you add the solution, not to mention giving it the 3 minutes for the true results.

I've got some more salt coming in a day or two and I'll do a couple more large ones and hope, if not any real change, I may just wait it out. Frustrating.

 

[tmz]

What's your skimmer doing?

 

[b7fig]

Skimmer is cranking out some nasty stuff!

However, today is a glorious day!!! Can't believe it happened over night, but I tested Sunday after doing the water change and I was still around 45 or so. Last night I tested again and it had dropped to maybe 20 to 25. Had to check it twice and have my wife look at the color chart to verify.

So I hoping I'm on a positive swing and it will keep dropping.

 

[tmz]

It seems to happen like that for many.When I started NO3 hung in the 5 to 10 ppm range for months and then one day it was down to almost zero.

 

[TT01]

Tom,
If I dose vodka using a peristaltic pump (i.e. Bubble Magus) storing the vodka in the containers the pump comes with, is it a concern that alcohol gets evaporated and lose the effectivenes of the dosing?

Thanks

 

[AZRippster]

Hoping to get some advice.

I've been dosing vodka for 10 weeks based off of the reefkeeping.com article, "Vodka Dosing...Distilled!" Over the past 2-3 weeks I have really seen a considerable amount cyano developing. I vacuum it off, but it continues to come back. It's a 450 mixed reef sitting now at 5ppm Nitrate and undetectable Phosphates per Salifert. Since this weekend I decided I would go to vinegar for my daytime dosing using peristaltic pump and vodka for the night. I know that the vinegar (5%) is 8X weaker than the 80 proof vodka I'm using, so I split my 10 week vodka dosing amount 50/50. Fifty percent remained vodka and the other 50% I multiplied by 8 to get my vinegar amount. That amount is dosed at 4 intervals during the peak of the tank's daylight hours. The vodka gets dosed in 3 intervals throughout the night.

As of yesterday I noticed several of my corals that are normally very open and happy were withdrawn. I got up this morning very early to feed and found many were still unhappy that normally have their feeder tentacles out ready for chow.

My questions are:

1. Is there a known good ration for dosing vodka and vinegar?
2. Should I have done a slow "break-in" period when introducing the vinegar?
3. If a break-in should have been done, how should I go about addressing that?

Any advice and/or insight will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[tmz]

No proven mix of ethanol and acetic acid of which I am aware . This thread about NOPOX and my own levels may be of interest, in terms of commonality but doesn't really prove what might be optimal; for any given tank:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&highlight=nopox

FWIW I've been bolus dosing a mix of 36 ml 80 proof vodka and 80 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar ; that's about 75% ethanol to acetic acid.I had some cyano at start up. I think it's a transitional thing from fall off in the usual competition that gives cyano a tempoary edge and have seen it with either vodka or vinegar early on.
Anecdotally ,fwiw, I started with just vodka;saw cyano; swithced 25% to vinegar;cyano reduced ,perhaps coincidentally; went another 25% acetic acid in lieu of ethanol; cyano seemed to increaese; went back to 25% and it eventually went away ,perhaps coincidentally.

 

[tmz]

Tom,
If I dose vodka using a peristaltic pump (i.e. Bubble Magus) storing the vodka in the containers the pump comes with, is it a concern that alcohol gets evaporated and lose the effectivenes of the dosing?

Thanks

Not if they are sealed to the like vodka in a bottle is. I bolus dose the vodka btw. Spreading it out may or may not be a better option.

 

[TT01]

Thanks Tom!

 

[tmz]

You are welcome.

 

[Aquarist007]

You are welcome.

BTW, vodka/ethanol is also hydrophilic.Many brands are charcoal filtered.

Sometimes, the benthic bacteria colonize the surface of GAC . This activity when it occurs may limit the GAC surface area in direct contact with th water ;thus, limiting the exposure of binding sites to organics in the water. So, more frequent changes of GAC in smaller amounts than usual may be necessary in systems dosed with organic carbon to keep a steady flow through it an dmaximize the GAC's effectiveness. Mine did that for a period of time;not much any longer. I ran the carbon through an old fluval filter box . When I added a sponge filter, the bacteria grew there and left the carbon relatively free of bacterial mass. In the BRS reactor I run there is only scant evidence of bacteria colonizing the GAC. My system includes several refugia with rocks and sand though which I suspect gives them plenty of other places to grow.

Being hydrophilic can the level of ethanol be comprimised or lowered by skimming?

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm still trying to get a handle on carbon dosing and possible effects it might have on red bubble tips. I run pellets and also dose vodka which I have been for the last 10'months.
I just can't keep red bubble tips in my own system. I have a green carpet anemone that is doing well.
I've lost a total of 8 Rbt's.
I maintain 20 other systems loaded with Rbt's which are doing great however i run pellets in them but don't liquid carbon dose
I keep nitrates at 2 and phosphates at .03

Any thoughts?

 

[tmz]

Skimmers are effective at removing amphipathic organic molecules,those with one end being hydrophillic( strongly attracted to water) and another end that is hydrophobic( repelled by water) .These bi polar molecules get trapped in the air water interface between the bubbles and are skimmed out. Skimmers also push out some hyrophobic molecules and some precipitants. So, skimming will have little if any effect on ethanol levels as the water pulls it like it does other miscible molecules, like sodium and chloride. Some will of course come out with the water taken out by the skimmer. Skimming will ,however. take out the bacteria that consume the acetate.

 

[tmz]

I don't know why you are having difficulty with entmacea quadricolor anemones.. Mine do well and have for years in the system dosed with vodka and vinegar; without bio pellets though.