Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[biom]

Thanks Tom, i found i have almost a kilo of pure sodium acetate in my lab, may be i'll do experiment with my son's nano .

 

[tmz]

I think a kilo might be a little too much for a nano.
Let us know how it works if you do use it.

 

[AugustWest]

Great thread. I'm planning on starting vinegar dosing. I'm currently running GFO and my PO4 measures 0.02 on the Hanna ULR meter. Nitrates are undetectable on my Red Sea kit.

I know there is Nitrate and Phosphate because I have a hair algae issue . My question: with Nitrate already very low can I start the vinegar dosing and use the hair algae as a reference as to when I'm getting close to the proper dose?
Also , should I take the GFO Reactor off line or leave it running when I start dosing?

 

[Aquarist007]

Great thread. I'm planning on starting vinegar dosing. I'm currently running GFO and my PO4 measures 0.02 on the Hanna ULR meter. Nitrates are undetectable on my Red Sea kit.

I know there is Nitrate and Phosphate because I have a hair algae issue . My question: with Nitrate already very low can I start the vinegar dosing and use the hair algae as a reference as to when I'm getting close to the proper dose?
Also , should I take the GFO Reactor off line or leave it running when I start dosing?

I would take the Gfo off line and start the vinegar dosing. You should see a reduction in the algae. You need to pull as much as you can out of the system esp when it starts dying to remove incorporated phosphates

 

[tmz]

Monitor the PO4 if it rises without the gfo , I'd use a little during the early stages to keep it at 0.02 to 0.04ppm.

 

[holdyourlight]

i started vinegar dosing on my 125g fish only tank about 3 and a half weeks ago. I started at 14ml total daily and added 1ml total daily. I am now at 35 ml (0.28ml/gal). There is white film (obviously bacteria) coating the glass and pumps and cloudy water

i wondered if i needed to back off even though i am still at a low dosage. I didn't have a nitrate test when i started but as of last week nitrates were around 50 (red sea pro kit)

 

[tmz]

I'd personally stay at 35ml for a week or so and observe. If it's bad I'd back off by about 25%;wait/observe and tweak it up again. 50 ppm nitrate will probably take a month or two or longer to fall. What's the PO4?

FWIW, the vodka vinegar mix I dose approximates 0.57 ml per gallon of 5% vinegar in terms of organic carbon content

 

[holdyourlight]

I'd personally stay at 35ml for a week or so and observe. If it's bad I'd back off by about 25%;wait/observe and tweak it up again. 50 ppm nitrate will probably take a month or two or longer to fall. What's the PO4?

FWIW, the vodka vinegar mix I dose approximates 0.57 ml per gallon of 5% vinegar in terms of organic carbon content

Thanks Tom. As a side note my skimmer (JNS SK-2) has been pulling much more gunk since starting carbon dosing.

I"ll hold at 35ml for a week and see if the cloudy water and white film gets any better

PO4 is @ .15 ppm (hanna 736)

Running phosguard as well to help bring that down and will switch to HC GFO when i run out of that (if the vinegar hasn't brought it down already by that time)

 

[biom]

sodium acetate dosing

sodium acetate dosing

Just to give some feedback from my sodium acetate experiment one month after. It works as expected . I've tested in 15 gallon nano (heavily neglected) nitrates in the beginning - 25 mg/l, three weeks later 5 mg/l, phosphates - 0,07 mg/l in the beginning, 0,0018 mg/l three weeks after. Feeding 3 grams frozen food daily - artemia. Inhabitants pair ocelaris clown fish (overfeeding ). Dosing- 1st week 0.5 ml 38% sodium acetate trihydrate, 2nd week 1 ml, 3rd week 1.5 ml.
Pros - no pH issues, no odor (pure sodium acetate has very light acetic smell)
Cons - solution of acetate is known to be prone of bacterial contamination but for three weeks i'v noticed only very fine whitish bacterial residue after second week. So - it works, pretty fast with no issues.

 

[tmz]

Nice report. Thanks .

 

[kissman]

Is it best to dose at night, day or does it matter? I am having some Cyano and if Cyano can live off of carbon I was thinking it might make more sense to dose at night with lights out.

 

[tmz]

It's best to dose during the photosynthetic period when CO2 is consumed and oxygen is produced via photsyntesis . The vinegar drops pH when dosed ;the bacteria also make CO2 and consume some oxygen as they consume the ethanol and/ or acetic acid. Personally I dose 85% of the dose in the am after lights on and 15% at night just to give the bacteria something until morning . I'm not sure the cyano lives off the organic carbon .It might benefit some but mostly it uses CO2 as it is photosynthetic. I suspect cyano just outcompetes diatoms and other competitors for nitrogen , phosphate and other elements during start up when nutrients become more scarce via the increased heterotrophic bacterial activity and competitors are more easily limited than cyano. Eventually it wanes. I haven't seen cyano except a rare small small bit here or there for years. (usually where two corals are touching and fighting or some dtritus has built up) and there for years.

 

[swhobbie1]

I had a tank meltdown recently and it was triggered by the failure of my skimmer. I read that you must use a skimmer with carbon dosing and I don't think I will ever carbon dose again unless I have a backup working skimmer on hand. I have been dosing 4ml vodka for about a year in my 40g which has prob 5 dozen SPS, a 3 head blasto and 2 ricordea mushrooms plus 2 fish, peppermint shrimp and a handful snails. All was going great - SPS growing, great colors. Then my skimmer broke. :-( So I went out and bought a new HOB skimmer - which refused to work and continued to over flow for 2 weeks ... so l position it to dump the water back into the tank. Toward the end of the 2 week a orange setosa started to STN. Next morning I woke up to a previously healthy ORA lime green with pink tip shortcake totally RTN over night. About 8 other SPS started STN from base or had STN tips. Most started showing little PE. So I went out and bought a new pump for my old skimmer and guess what - that one kept overflowing - even worse - like niagara falls out the top and onto the floor so I had to turn it off. So I did 5g WC ever day for 6 days. Then while searching the web I see this youtube that says just spray some olive oil in the skimmer which stops it from over flowing. I tried it and it worked. Not sure what the olive oil consequences are to the tank but I felt I had little choice to avoid loss of more SPS. Now I have a skimmer that is working ... no longer carbon dosing. SPS seem to have stopped STN but watching. PE is coming back.

Anyone have any ideas what might have gone on with this tank due toe having carbon dosing and the lack of a skimmer working properly for days ? I know there is the oxygen thing but the thing I don't understand is why didn't this affect the live stock .. does not appear to have had any affect on my two fish, two peppermints and snails. Also - there were many SPS that did not seem to be affected at all which seems weird - they had same good color, good PE throughout. Just would like to understand what happened.

 

[AhmedLFC]

Skimming dry or wet? Sounds like wet. I personally would not introduce any oils or lipids to your reef

 

[tmz]

Sorry for your troubles. I don't know why your corals declined with any certainty. I'd guess organic carbon built up without the skimming. Elevated total organic carbon has been linked to coral mortality in some studies . Other possibilities include: a drop in aeration without the skimmer; a pH variation ,a toxin, some hypoxia around the corals particulary at night, pathogens,unrelated parameter issues, and ????

I personally wouldn't add fats like olive oil to the aqaurium.

Were you using any GAC to help export organics?

 

[AugustWest]

Question about vinegar dosing. I'm on week 7 of dosing and I'm at 26 ML for 80 gallon total volume.

In the last week my Filter sock is clogging within 24 hours, sock feels slimy when I take it out. Also some stringy bacteria growth in the sump.

Nitrates are undetectable on Red Sea Pro and NYOS Nitrate tests. Phosphate tests at 0.02 on Hanna ULR. I am still running GFO ( Rowaphos 7 tbsps) due to a mild but persistent Hair Algae problem.

There is a small amount of hair algae on the back panel of the tank on top of the coralline, this appears to be turning white and dying.

Still a couple of spots of algae on the LR that is short but still looks healthy but really not growing or spreading.

My questions: Due to the bacteria build up on the filter socks and the sump should I stay at my current dose of 26 ml ? I'm due to up it to 30ml today.

Also , should I continue the use of GFO? I've never really had high Nitrate or PO4 and started the vinegar dosing to combat a stubborn hair algae problem.

 

[tmz]

Yes bacteria do colonize surface area including filter media. They are benthic[ need surface area to grow on.

Some types algae( oligotrophic) persists in low nutrients

GFO may not be needed. What's your PO4 level? Waht's the NO3?

26 ml may be enough for your system ; maybe even a little less. depending on the PO4 and nitrate levels I'd stop the GFO first, test and then consider a reduction in the vinegar

 

[AugustWest]

Yes bacteria do colonize surface area including filter media. They are benthic[ need surface area to grow on.

Some types algae( oligotrophic) persists in low nutrients

GFO may not be needed. What's your PO4 level? Waht's the NO3?

26 ml may be enough for your system ; maybe even a little less. depending on the PO4 and nitrate levels I'd stop the GFO first, test and then consider a reduction in the vinegar

PO4 tests 0.02ppm on the Hanna ULR ( 5ppb) Nitrate undetectable on Red Sea Pro and NYOS Nitrate kits.

Only reason I've continued the GFO is the presence of hair algae. Would prefer to take it off line but not sure if I should. I've always felt that my tank is Nitrate limited as I've never tested with any Nitrate on 3 different kits. Phosphate has risen before but not to real high levels, at most 0.05 ppm and it hasn't been that high in months. It's been at or below recommended levels. Yet I still have algae...

I've considered dosing nitrate, even mixed up a Potassium Nitrate solution but have never dosed it in fear of feeding the hair algae. I have been dosing amino acids ( Elos Omega ) 5 times a week so as not to starve my SPS Which appear healthy with good color for the most part, decent growth also.

 

[swhobbie1]

Skimming dry or wet? Sounds like wet. I personally would not introduce any oils or lipids to your reef

wet (new skimmer overflowing). Yeh I tried it but immediately the SPS looked like they didn't like it and the thing started overflowing again in no time.

 

[swhobbie1]

Sorry for your troubles. I don't know why your corals declined with any certainty. I'd guess organic carbon built up without the skimming. Elevated total organic carbon has been linked to coral mortality in some studies . Other possibilities include: a drop in aeration without the skimmer; a pH variation ,a toxin, some hypoxia around the corals particulary at night, pathogens,unrelated parameter issues, and ???? I personally wouldn't add fats like olive oil to the aqaurium. Were you using any GAC to help export organics?

Yeh I don't think I'll figure our what happened but I'm going to avoid carbon dosing, amino for awhile and stick to the basics, see how that goes. Other than skimmer I just have a reactor with phosban in it. Coral STN seem to have stopped and colors are looking better. The ones that have the bare patches from STN don't seem to be expanding and holding their own, color coming back. Hopefully they will be ok.