Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build

nothing will filter like the ocean....
but a skimmer and turf scrubber or refugium used together should produce almost perfect water parameters.....
...vitz....your right water changes\siphoning detritis almost always has to be done at some point but having a variety of pods and worms will help break down some of the waste and maybe let the bacterial colonies help process. Do you agree?
 
as mentioned elsewhere santa i may change my mind with this idea, great information
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13214089#post13214089 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by InlandAqua
nothing will filter like the ocean....
but a skimmer and turf scrubber or refugium used together should produce almost perfect water parameters.....
...vitz....your right water changes\siphoning detritis almost always has to be done at some point but having a variety of pods and worms will help break down some of the waste and maybe let the bacterial colonies help process. Do you agree?

do i agree that having a good biodiversity level in a system helps the system to function better overall ? of course-let's spare each other the rhetorical questions :p

an algal scrubber is not necessary to achieve pods and worms, however-and ultimately, it's not the scrubber that determines how many 'extra' pods the system will grow/support-it's the amount of FOOD in the system that determines such, and the relative amounts of growth/health inhibiting componds that the system builds up over time-my bet is that ultimately and in the long term-NO extra pod production will occur due to the installment of any scrubber-add some extra food, however, and they'll most definitely expand in number, without the least bit of algae added ;)

if anything-the logic should be that there would be a REDUCTION in pod population levels, as the scrubber (supposedly) got the water so clean so as to preclude any need to change water ever again! (per the original used car/insurance salesman type poster who started all of his thread on this and other bbs ;) )

i will put forth the proposition that on a 'home scale' size system, compared to a good regimen of water changes and skimming-that ANY 'turf scrubber' will not give an efficient benefit return for the work involved in its setup or maintenance demands when added to those systems, and may even detract from water quality for certain parameters-like the various organic wastes that algaes produce, that the original poster is completely ignorant about ;)
 
Thanks Michael, this post is then for you :)

Here is the first screen builder ("varga" from another thread) to reach the cleaning stage:

UserVargaOnRS-Days0-9.jpg



Some comments from him along the way:

"Mine has very little growth on it, its been 4 days......more light?" (Which he then did)

"The light now is right on the screen, almost touching it"

"I'll have to reach in my tank to take out HA [for seeding] which is not easy! (Which he then did)

"We've now had a burst of growth in the last 24 hours; Here it is on day 6."

"We had another major burst of growth in the last 24 hours! its a redish/brownish stuff, Im guessing this is turf?" (No, it was brown diatoms)

"This thing is a great chiller!! forgot to turn the fan off last night, woke up to a 73 degree tank!"
 
4100AS_fill_1.jpg

This was my stationary ATS. It was in my sump and recieved all the water from the tank. I had a 7 gallon reverse carlson surge (RCSD) on my 65G tank that fired about every 45 seconds. Right after the RCSD fired, the tank level dropped and water stopped flowing to the sump. As the RCSD charged back up the ATS would start to fill as water began flowing over the tank overflow. This is the fill stage.

4100AS_crop.jpg

Here is the ATS removed for harvest. You can see the drain hole and the notch for the overflow return at the back. The fill/drain was pretty basic, the hole was sized to drain slower than the ATS filled when the overflow was flowing. When the overflow stopped after the RCSD fired, the ATS drained completely. I would harvest the ATS every 1 to 2 weeks.

4100AS_scrapings.jpg

Here is a cup of ATS squeezings. Over the six years the tank was in operation, it ran best when I was running the ATS and a 4" X 4' CC air skimmer. I could just feed and feed and stubborn display algae like Ventricaria and Caulerpa peltata would not appear. After I stopped using the ATS. after I moved the tank, Ventricaria and C. peltata came back in the display. I've run other algae filters but IMO the ATS performs the best.

I like that you are just jumping in an trying stuff. Too often people go on and on about trying ATS, surge devices, etc, but never execute.
 
piercho,

When you harvested were you getting pretty close to completely bare PVC, or did you just pinch some of the algae off leaving algae growth ffairly visable?

Matt
 
I took a thick piece of scrap acrylic and scrapped off everything I could. The dominant alga was longer and stringier than typical Derbesia, really no idea what it was, but it was tough to get off of the plastic and there were always remnants. The same alga was not evident in the display tank. I also rinsed off the tray under the tap to wash away as many herbivores as possible. I think reducing grazing pressure is a fundamental parameter of a productive ATS.
 
In a classic case of "not doing research", some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they
follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"

Well. I took the time to watch it (one hour). But, I guess they did NOT. The video starts out appearing to make the point of "algae kills corals", and if you stopped watching after fifteen minutes, that's what you'd think. But the first part of that presentation is just a setup for the presenter's further explanations, and is not the point itself.

It's a similar situation to a presentation for beginners about how rock, sand, and the nitrogen cycle works: You would start by saying "If I have a fish in a bucket of water, and I pour in ammonia, the fish will die." This is true, but it's only used to set up later explanations of how rock and sand come into the picture to stop the death of the fish.

So it turns out that if you watch the whole research video, the presenter/researcher not only makes the point of pro-algae folks, and counters the point of the people who posted it (as their evidence), but it also counters the entire group of people who say no-skimmers and high-DOC's are bad. I've been saying that my focus never was skimmer or no-skimmer; instead my focus was reducing N and P cheaply, quickly, and with no risk. But since these people made this video/research available, I'll use it:

The presenter is trying to show how "algae that kills coral" would SEEM to occur, so later he can show you what they really found in their research. The crux of his presentation is basically: "We thought higher DOC's were the cause of coral death; We were wrong. Lower DOC's are" (these are my words).

So here is the video, with rough quotes of what the video says, along with the minutes and seconds into the video where you can see it for yourself:

http://www.marine.usf.edu/videos/2007-01-26.wmv

23:30 "Bulk DOC does not correlate with coral decline; higher DOC areas have healthier corals; lower DOC areas have weaker corals. The opposite of what we predicted".

24:40 "The DOC to DIN ratio's are higher on healthy reefs, and lower on less-healthy reefs".

25:45 "Microbial numbers are elevated with a lower DOC to DIN ratio" (!) (even I got that one wrong).

34:00 "Christmas Island, with the really low DOC, has the highest pathogens, while Kingman Island, with the highest DOC, has the lowest pathogens."

37:00 "On Kingman Island you have high hard-coral coverage and the lowest disease [and highest DOC]. That's weird! What you SHOULD find is that as hard-coral coverage reduces, it should be harder for the pathogens to find hosts, so you should see a pathogen decrease. But we're not seeing that, which means there is SOMETHING ELSE going on."

49:20 "The DOC definitely always goes down, in the really bad coral areas".

52:39 "You can actually put the corals where the nutrients are really high, and the corals are not dying; in some cases they tend to grow better, which is also true in our [???].

So I submit to them, using their own evidence, that not using a skimmer, with the resultant increase in DOC's (and now apparent decrease in microbes), is not in-itself a coral killer. Something else is. And this explains why some people using algal-only filtration can grow great sps.
 
I don't think you can make general statement that increasing DOC is good. Feldman & Maers just put article in Advanced Aquarist this month showing that they could induce coral mortality by increasing DOC: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part 1
They also show increased DOC near coral may be attributed to the corals, themselves. Most interesting part was that skimming did not have much effect on tank DOC levels in test study.

Matt, no claims of tank like Joe Burger or Steve Weast here! I kept lagoonal tank with mostly LPS and clams. I did have Stylos, Acros, Pocs and Birdsnest but did not achieve impressive growth rates or coloration compared to others.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13241959#post13241959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matt & pam
Please post a picture of a mature tank run with ATS without skimmer growing great sps.

i too have been waiting for a sps dominated tank solely running on an ats without skimming and little to no water changes.
 
No the point of the video research was that they were using it as their closing argument that "algae kills corals". But they didn't even watch the video.

Also, I've started compiling a list of mixed and sps keepers. Will take a while but I'll get it done. Most are not on RC.
 
Wow. There's so much to post that I don't know which should be first. Today I'll cover max inputs that's I've been able to achieve.

I've been experimenting with how much I can feed my 90g, with only my 144 square inch turf screen doing the filtering. I'd add more food for a few days, then the Salifert N test would start showing a tiny bit of pink (about a .2 reading). Then I'd cut the food in half, until the reading went clear (zero N measured). Interestingly, P never increased. Ever. Only N. So after a few tries, here's the max I've been able feed the tank while just barely getting an N increase:


Max Feeding:

Liquid Life Marine Plankton with Cyclopeeze: 3 pumps a day
Liquid Life Bio Plankton (live phyto): 2 pumps a day
Frozone mysis: 2 cubes a day, unwashed, thawed in 4 oz tap water.
Silversides: 1 per week (for the eel)


Tank:

90 Display, BB
20 Sump
150 pounds LR
60 inches fish
40 corals, all softie and lps
6000 gph circulation
Carbon now used once a month for allelpathics


I'm now settling in on a lesser amount:

1 pump phyto
1-2 pumps plankton
2 cubes mysis, unwashed, thawed in 4 oz tap water.
Silversides: 1 per week (for the eel)
 
some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"

you refer to this thread ?

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123420

the only accusation made was that YOU didn't do research-not only do you misrepresent personal non in depth anecdote as actual research-now you're misrepresenting the people who tried to initially have a cogent, coherent, logical argument with you while trying to explain to you the difference between the two ;)

i'm not aware of any of the posters on that thread CONSTANTLY accusing anyone of anything regarding turf scrubbing, as it's a subject that's hardly ever brought up there, btw ;)
 
For those that don't already know, you can do two things when Vitz posts:

1) Click "Report this post to a moderator" at the end of the post, on the right.

2) Click on the "My RC" button at the top of your screen, then click "Edit Ignore List", type Vitz in the empty box, and click Update List.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13257137#post13257137 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SantaMonica
For those that don't already know, you can do two things when Vitz posts:

1) Click "Report this post to a moderator" at the end of the post, on the right.

2) Click on the "My RC" button at the top of your screen, then click "Edit Ignore List", type Vitz in the empty box, and click Update List.

You forgot Options 3 and 4:

3) Read the thread he linked to. Make up your own mind as to who knows what about an ATF.

4) Research ATF'es (Google is your friend) and find out the alternatives to an ATF for the removal of N and P from a system and see which ways are the MOST EFFICIENT at doing it.
 
Well, I've been lurking since this this thread started. Waterfall turf is an innovative idea. Especially when you consider how fast the intensity of light drops off due to the inverse square law. It looks like the light can be positioned very close to the waterfall. Energy efficiancy and all. Evaporative cooling was mentioned, but then there's all that humidity.
Anyway, Ive seen too many, way too many, threads get shut down because of disagreements over how best this HOBBY should be managed. I've seen people throw little barbs until someone finally loses their temper and flames. I call it flame baiting. Take the bait and the thread gets closed. A clever form of censorship. I'm not accusing anyone of flame baiting, but I feel a thread closing fight brewing between SantaMonica and Vitz. IMO, algae filters are very useful, but a counterpoint is a lot better than just a cheering section. Let's not let this thread get closed.
 
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