Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
truebeliever71
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13315465#post13315465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vitz
er-wrong again-there are many more yellowing compounds at play here-of course you don't list them due to your ignorance on the subject
vitz... I'm trying to learn more about this... if you're going to make statements like this please give some references or more explanation.
BTW... I'm not here to defend SM... but you're doing what you are accusing him of doing... making vague statements with no facts to support them. Like I said... I'm here to learn more (as I'm sure there are others) about ATS and I want to know the particulars.
Thanks.
truebeliever71
Premium Member
Santa...
With all the hubbub on this thread it's hard to find the facts and experiences so please forgive me if I'm missing something.
From what I understand, the algae/turf needs an aeration period, right? Then if I'm going to build this thing... why not it right the first time? Is there something wrong with my design? Please let me know. When I do something I want to do it right.
Thanks for the help.
It seems like the actual thread is being lost on this immature gripe fest... Anyway here's a thread I started on how to aerate the scrubber if you're interested.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1466969
truebeliever71
Premium Member
Nice surge device but I think it's not going to work in my application. My tank is in my office (if you call it that) which is a 8 ft x 8 ft closet. Yes, closet. I don't have much room for equipment so I have to choose my equipment wisely and keep everything compact as well as quiet as possible. So, that's why I came up with the windmill concept which I plan on mounting to the back of my tank which is about 10 inches from the wall.
Also, I was wonder where this device should be in the filtration loop. I currently have a Fluval 305 canister and a HOB venturi skimmer. Can I just connect it to the output of the canister or should it have it's own pump?
Thanks.
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Tang Salad
Algae skeptic
Of course not...but I think you knew that.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
Matt - not that I am aware of. Adey looked at it and said it was not a problem but the bar in reefkeeping has been raised considerably since then so I'm not sure if his observations would still be relavent. I've seen algae discussed as an inhibitor of stony coral growth a few times. Personally, I have not made up my mind on the issue. Remember the video discussed earlier in this thread? Page 8ish? Here's the abstract summarizing the video's message (credit for finding this summary of the video goes to ZooKeeper - it's from a post he made on R.org).
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Especially this part
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Well since the algae scrubber is designed to grow algae and consume nutrients, it would be my thinking that it should be placed before all of your other filters. You'd want it to get as many nutrients as possible.
You would probably be fine connecting it to your existing pump. The problem is if you need to reduce the flow going to the scrubber then you wouldn't want to reduce the flow going to your tank as well... If it's on its own pump then you can alter the flow without affecting your tank... But it should work fine in your existing system as long as you don't need to alter the flow.
truebeliever71
Premium Member
If flow is the only concern the easy way around that (without another pump) would be to a splitter with a valve controlling the water to the scrubber. I'm not only trying to maximize the real estate in my office but tank as well.
Thanks again!
vitz
New member
if you really wanted to learn and do research, then google would have already answered your question-try 'yellowing compounds+skimming' for one
is it my imagination, or has this generation lost the capacity to use the least bit of initiative for their brain cells?
nothing personal, please believe me-but i've spoon fed people for too many years to continue here-the info i've reffered to has been available to the entire planet for years and years
99% of all of santa's threads would never have recieved traffic if the participants would have just done TEN MINUTES of searching the net on the subject of scrubbers, skimmers, waste compounds etc
this bb and rdo alone have so much great info that if 1/2 of the noobs would simply get out their lazy fingers and actually search for info on their own, the thread posts would drop by 75%, lol
check out the online mags' archives for a start
i won't be the replacement teacher for laziness-all i know i know from reading my butt off before i even started back in the day, + my (hands on ) experience in very diverse systems ranging from nanos to commercial breeding/rearing facilities that deal in hundreds of tons of fish/year-there are far smarter and more experienced than i that have actually published good research, hypotheses, and solid data
i challenge ANYONE who uses an algal scrubber and no water changes, carbon, etc to show me non yellowed water after one month in ANY tank-it will never happen
(unless one doesn't know how to properly color test a water sample, heh)
what color do you think fish urine is ?
Tang Salad
Algae skeptic
Some good points there, Vitz.
I think part of the problem you refer to is a result of the "Leapfrog Effect". That is, reefers who've entered the hobby in the last 10-15 years didn't go through all of the prior developments; they jumped into the hobby at its current advanced stage, missing out on all of the knowledge that came from the trial and error era of the hobby.
This is, largely, a good thing. It wouldn't help the hobby if every newbie had to start out with 4,000K HPS lamps and terrestrial limestone. The downside is that some new hobbyists don't have the logical/rational/scientific toolkit needed to recognize when old ideas are presented as new.
I think part of the problem you refer to is a result of the "Leapfrog Effect". That is, reefers who've entered the hobby in the last 10-15 years didn't go through all of the prior developments; they jumped into the hobby at its current advanced stage, missing out on all of the knowledge that came from the trial and error era of the hobby.
This is, largely, a good thing. It wouldn't help the hobby if every newbie had to start out with 4,000K HPS lamps and terrestrial limestone. The downside is that some new hobbyists don't have the logical/rational/scientific toolkit needed to recognize when old ideas are presented as new.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
It's tough to start in this hobby without being proactive about your learning curve. You've gotten to RC - great start! If you find an idea that catches your fancy though, doing unbiased research on the web will really push you over the top. Google. After that, become familiar with how to get to and browse for interesting stuff in places like these:
I might browse through RK issues for things that pop out. Not just the pictoral stuff :
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php
Here's where you when you want to dig a little deeper:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles/feature
Or simply here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles
And to find opposing or alternative views look up some of the gurus here on RC:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/author/authorindex.php
Or just browse by topic:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/index.php
I might browse through RK issues for things that pop out. Not just the pictoral stuff
:http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php
Here's where you when you want to dig a little deeper:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles/feature
Or simply here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles
And to find opposing or alternative views look up some of the gurus here on RC:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/author/authorindex.php
Or just browse by topic:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/index.php
truebeliever71
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13321818#post13321818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
It's tough to start in this hobby without being proactive about your learning curve. You've gotten to RC - great start! If you find an idea that catches your fancy though, doing unbiased research on the web will really push you over the top. Google. After that, become familiar with how to get to and browse for interesting stuff in places like these:
I might browse through RK issues for things that pop out. Not just the pictoral stuff
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php
Here's where you when you want to dig a little deeper:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles/feature
Or simply here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/articles
And to find opposing or alternative views look up some of the gurus here on RC:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/author/authorindex.php
Or just browse by topic:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/index.php
Mike,
I HAVE been doing research on it... google searches and I've ordered Walt's book from our library system. Thanks for the links you supplied. I have already read a lot of the reef keeping articles.
When someone makes a statement they could at least supply some links for information to back it up. Isn't that what SM is being accused of?
Thanks again for your help.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
If I were to start looking for an answer, this is how I might begin....
Step 1) Look for something that can give you some key words. I searched and found articles that discussed yellow water and/or granular activated carbon in marine aquariums. Like here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1
Step 2) I then took those keywords (humic acid) and plugged them into google. In this case I came up with a bunch of babble about worthless junk and fertilizer products. (It's interesting to ponder the idea that humic acids might be a component in fertilizer products though, isn't it?) So I ran a few searches including 'wiki' in the search box. And here is what I found:
From Wikipedia:
Humic acid is one of the major components of humic substances[1] which are dark brown and major constituents of soil organic matter humus that contributes to soil chemical and physical quality and are also precursors of some fossil fuels. They can also be found in peat, coal, many upland streams, dystrophic lakes and ocean water.might be on to something
Humic substances make up a large portion of the dark matter in humus and consist of heterogeneous mixtures of transformed biomolecules exhibiting a supramolecular structure (http://www.suprahumic.unina.it), that can be separated in their small molecular components by sequential chemical fractionation (Piccolo, 2002; Fiorentino et al., 2006). dark matter?
....break in page....
Formation of humic substances in the environment:
Humic substances arise by the microbial degradation of plant and animal tissues and ultimately biomolecules (lipids, proteins, carbohydrates, lignin) dispersed in the environment after the death of living cells.
Step 3? Interesting. I bet there is a portion of living matter that will be shaded and die. Maybe some of it will die from competition on the turf itself from other algae species, maybe from predation. The point is, algae will die on your screen. If this were a more serious search I would probably look for evidence to follow up on that notion. Maybe browse the Advanced Aquariust or Reefkeeping articles and authors for thoughts on this?
Alternate Step 3 or Step 4?
I might look for authors in those same magazines to find out what their thoughts are regarding carbon usage. What about that article I started with above? Maybe I need more information regarding algae and stony coral interactions. Maybe one of those trusted authors has written about that? I dunno, just an idea for another search.
Oh crap, I'm lost again. I can continue to research keywords back and forth between the various things I've just found. Sometimes that's more work than it's worth though....the list grows exponentially. Well, good thing we don't need to reinvent the wheel!!! When you get stuck, go back here for fresh ideas:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/totm.php
Or just go back to your trusted list of authors for advice you can count on to do some general studying.
-------------------------------
Do I use carbon? Yes. In as few words as I can....it's been a staple in industries like environmental remediation, wastewater treatment, drinking water supply, manufacturing, and many others since these industries began. Plus, many of my most trusted authors recommend the use of carbon. I use ROX8 from Bulk Reef Supply. IIRC, that's a favorite of Randy Holmes Farley.
Step 1) Look for something that can give you some key words. I searched and found articles that discussed yellow water and/or granular activated carbon in marine aquariums. Like here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1
Step 2) I then took those keywords (humic acid) and plugged them into google. In this case I came up with a bunch of babble about worthless junk and fertilizer products. (It's interesting to ponder the idea that humic acids might be a component in fertilizer products though, isn't it?) So I ran a few searches including 'wiki' in the search box. And here is what I found:
From Wikipedia:
Humic acid is one of the major components of humic substances[1] which are dark brown and major constituents of soil organic matter humus that contributes to soil chemical and physical quality and are also precursors of some fossil fuels. They can also be found in peat, coal, many upland streams, dystrophic lakes and ocean water.might be on to something
Humic substances make up a large portion of the dark matter in humus and consist of heterogeneous mixtures of transformed biomolecules exhibiting a supramolecular structure (http://www.suprahumic.unina.it), that can be separated in their small molecular components by sequential chemical fractionation (Piccolo, 2002; Fiorentino et al., 2006). dark matter?
....break in page....
Formation of humic substances in the environment:
Humic substances arise by the microbial degradation of plant and animal tissues and ultimately biomolecules (lipids, proteins, carbohydrates, lignin) dispersed in the environment after the death of living cells.
Step 3? Interesting. I bet there is a portion of living matter that will be shaded and die. Maybe some of it will die from competition on the turf itself from other algae species, maybe from predation. The point is, algae will die on your screen. If this were a more serious search I would probably look for evidence to follow up on that notion. Maybe browse the Advanced Aquariust or Reefkeeping articles and authors for thoughts on this?
Alternate Step 3 or Step 4?
I might look for authors in those same magazines to find out what their thoughts are regarding carbon usage. What about that article I started with above? Maybe I need more information regarding algae and stony coral interactions. Maybe one of those trusted authors has written about that? I dunno, just an idea for another search.
Oh crap, I'm lost again. I can continue to research keywords back and forth between the various things I've just found. Sometimes that's more work than it's worth though....the list grows exponentially. Well, good thing we don't need to reinvent the wheel!!! When you get stuck, go back here for fresh ideas:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/totm.php
Or just go back to your trusted list of authors for advice you can count on to do some general studying.
-------------------------------
Do I use carbon? Yes. In as few words as I can....it's been a staple in industries like environmental remediation, wastewater treatment, drinking water supply, manufacturing, and many others since these industries began. Plus, many of my most trusted authors recommend the use of carbon. I use ROX8 from Bulk Reef Supply. IIRC, that's a favorite of Randy Holmes Farley.
Tang Salad
Algae skeptic
Great breakdown there Mike!
WetWebMedia is a great general resource for people looking for background information and opinions. You can check out some good Q&A about TAS here and here. Keep in mind these pages are often many years old. And you'll need to skim a bit to find the relevant parts. Here was one response Bob Fenner had to a general question about TASs:
Edit: forgot to mention, my signature below was there long before I saw this thread! Just don't want anyone to think I'm biased.
Fair enough. I think we're now able to talk about this with less acrimony No need to have the whole thread go down in flames.
WetWebMedia is a great general resource for people looking for background information and opinions. You can check out some good Q&A about TAS here and here. Keep in mind these pages are often many years old. And you'll need to skim a bit to find the relevant parts. Here was one response Bob Fenner had to a general question about TASs:
Edit: forgot to mention, my signature below was there long before I saw this thread! Just don't want anyone to think I'm biased.
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