Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13325901#post13325901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tang Salad
We don't need to have tried it to understand the science behind it. Just as I don't need to pour coal dust into my car's gas tank to know that my car won't run on coal.
That said, many of the naysayers have tried it. If you go back a few pages you'll see their opinions.
But your car will run on coal once the refining process has taken place. I guess you've never heard of shale coal or coal oil. I don't see where any of the nay-sayers have really tried it, if so where are their photos? All I read is that it won't work.
The science behind global warming is flawed, but millions of people have bought into the idea and all it is doing is make the few very rich. Just like the Y2K/.com hoax did.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
I tried it. I adhered very closely to Adey's full blown concept....not the watered down version you've been reading about in this thread. I dare say, Adey would puke at some of the claims made in this thread. My system was described a few pages ago. Here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13316830#post13316830). If you go back to page 12 and read forward, it's actually been brought up a handful of times. Check out how SM responded to my experiences. :eek2:
Inland Aqua - Glad you chimed back in! You run both carbon and skimmers? Did you install carbon and skimmers when you initially set up your turf systems or were they add ons due to your observationss and experience? Can you tell us about your lighting systems over the turf? I'm sure you guys are pounding the crap out of your turf, right? No CF bulbs I would assume, all MH?
On the topic of running carbon - one of the users a few pages ago said he's been running a turf for many years without any yellowing. He also said he was not running carbon. It appears that was not the case. I could post the PM but would rather not. Maybe he would like to chime back in as well? If you're lurking, I would like to know more about how your carbon was applied and I'm sure others would too.
mxett - I get your point. Out of the box thinking is great. There is a difference between out of the box and just doing weak research though. It's even worse if you're simply tuning out relevant information and not using it to revise your approach. If you want to try a system like this then do so. I don't recall anyone saying not to try it if you wanted to. I recall people weighing in heavily opposed to the idea, but did they say don't do it? Maybe they did but I dunno. If you do it I would suggest that you add it to whatever filtration methods you already employ and not sell your skimmer, throw out your carbon, and trash your GFO. With all of the time, interest, effort, money, and love that you pour into this hobby, why would you ignore the collective advice of so many and switch to SM's approach? He has two years of experience (not that years of experience really means anything but that discussion is a different thread all together) and he claimed ultra success after using the turf approach for one (count that, ONE) month. IMO, you can't claim success in this hobby unless your success has been maintained for at least a year. Even then though, it's worth knocking on wood just for uttering such a phrase.
I've already posted a link to the TOTM archives twice. IIRC, not one of those tanks run turf scrubbing. In fact, I can't think of a TOTM on any site that runs turf. So why?
Inland Aqua - Glad you chimed back in! You run both carbon and skimmers? Did you install carbon and skimmers when you initially set up your turf systems or were they add ons due to your observationss and experience? Can you tell us about your lighting systems over the turf? I'm sure you guys are pounding the crap out of your turf, right? No CF bulbs I would assume, all MH?
On the topic of running carbon - one of the users a few pages ago said he's been running a turf for many years without any yellowing. He also said he was not running carbon. It appears that was not the case. I could post the PM but would rather not. Maybe he would like to chime back in as well? If you're lurking, I would like to know more about how your carbon was applied and I'm sure others would too.
mxett - I get your point. Out of the box thinking is great. There is a difference between out of the box and just doing weak research though. It's even worse if you're simply tuning out relevant information and not using it to revise your approach. If you want to try a system like this then do so. I don't recall anyone saying not to try it if you wanted to. I recall people weighing in heavily opposed to the idea, but did they say don't do it? Maybe they did but I dunno. If you do it I would suggest that you add it to whatever filtration methods you already employ and not sell your skimmer, throw out your carbon, and trash your GFO. With all of the time, interest, effort, money, and love that you pour into this hobby, why would you ignore the collective advice of so many and switch to SM's approach? He has two years of experience (not that years of experience really means anything but that discussion is a different thread all together) and he claimed ultra success after using the turf approach for one (count that, ONE) month. IMO, you can't claim success in this hobby unless your success has been maintained for at least a year. Even then though, it's worth knocking on wood just for uttering such a phrase.
I've already posted a link to the TOTM archives twice. IIRC, not one of those tanks run turf scrubbing. In fact, I can't think of a TOTM on any site that runs turf. So why?
InlandAqua
New member
we use vho on most of the commercial size ats in the warehouse but are slowly swithching to pc. ran vho for the past 10 years.
halide is overkill...the turf grows fine under pc, vho, t5.
the carbon is simply for water clarity and is ran on clients tanks (homes and offices...not in our warehosue) for the look....we hardly ever run carbon except on one of our retail systems that we sell corals from...obviously we want the coral to look as good as possible and get the best light penetration.
as far as skimmers....it just depends on the systems....some of our client tanks we use both so water quality is never an issue....these are tanks we service and dont want the client to have to worry about water changes and general water quality.
halide is overkill...the turf grows fine under pc, vho, t5.
the carbon is simply for water clarity and is ran on clients tanks (homes and offices...not in our warehosue) for the look....we hardly ever run carbon except on one of our retail systems that we sell corals from...obviously we want the coral to look as good as possible and get the best light penetration.
as far as skimmers....it just depends on the systems....some of our client tanks we use both so water quality is never an issue....these are tanks we service and dont want the client to have to worry about water changes and general water quality.
I understand your objection to generalised claims of 'super filtration'. I understand your right to oppose a view in a debate.
What I really don't understand is the 'dog at a bone pot-shotting' by you and other detractors that seems so obsessive!
I also don't understand why people are claiming SM has some financial interest in his recommended technique. Surely he is promoting a 'diy' attitude amongst fellow reefers, with cheap and creative solutions, none of which can be traced to any transaction directly.
My suggestion is if you disagree with the threads suggestions or concepts by all means let us know. That is only necessary balanced information. But DO NOT continue with obsessive negative personal and repetitive posts to get your points over. All it does is detract from any positive information this thread has to offer, and make you look more likely to have a financial interest in its closure.
Cheers
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
Are you pointing that directly at me or someone else? Did you actually read my posts or the links I provided?
I gave you great links to help you improve your lighting approach should you decide to use this system. Those links included information on how to choose the right type of CF bulb, PAR values for MH bulbs, and the best T5 thread on the entire www.
I then gave you plenty of viewpoints on time proven methods from some of most respected authors out there. Topics such as GFO, carbon usage, and skimmer usage/setup/tuning. These provide people alternatives that are more than worthy to consider. I also gave you direct links to pages such as the authors and topics indexes to ReefKeeping Magazine. Then I provided the topics summary page for the Advanced Aquarist Magazine. Did you click on any of those?
I gave you great links to help you improve your lighting approach should you decide to use this system. Those links included information on how to choose the right type of CF bulb, PAR values for MH bulbs, and the best T5 thread on the entire www.
I then gave you plenty of viewpoints on time proven methods from some of most respected authors out there. Topics such as GFO, carbon usage, and skimmer usage/setup/tuning. These provide people alternatives that are more than worthy to consider. I also gave you direct links to pages such as the authors and topics indexes to ReefKeeping Magazine. Then I provided the topics summary page for the Advanced Aquarist Magazine. Did you click on any of those?
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ALL I CAN SAY IS THIS METHOD WORKS, I gain nothing for educating people on this, I and also believe SantaMonica simply is just being nice to offer such methods for people whom wants an alternative that also works. I will no longer post on this thread, if anyone wants to try it, they can and will most likely be happy in 2 months with the results. For you stubborn people, you don't have to use this method, and just be a follower of the common ways is ok too, this is just an alternative filtration route. With that said, for whom wants to try it, they can, or just do the same old in the box thinking, however if you want to think out of the box and be open minded to try something new, it may or may not meet your expectations, depending how you implement it, as with all things, you will only find out if you try it because not all things are created equal therefore results are not equal as well.
I will no longer post about this, sometimes good things should just be kept to myself, why bother to share it with others when they don't appreciate it. (Why teach a hungry man how to fish when he don't want to be tough and not appreciating your generous info, I say just let them starve, its better that way), why waste my time, I have better things to do.
I will no longer post about this, sometimes good things should just be kept to myself, why bother to share it with others when they don't appreciate it. (Why teach a hungry man how to fish when he don't want to be tough and not appreciating your generous info, I say just let them starve, its better that way), why waste my time, I have better things to do.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
navipro - If you're claiming 'success', surely you can lead others by posting before and after photos of your tank.
Please let us know the results of your testing both before and after installation of the system (please include the brand names from the kits you're using). Also, what equipment did you remove and what equipment do you continue to run? Other information such as water changes, fish load, and revisions to your clean up crew would also be helpful. WIth this sort of information you will have a much better opportunity to gain support from the detractors. Look back at this thread. I never told people not to give it a shot. No really, look back. I'm more than willing to support your case but I'm not willing to take your word on this method any more than I'm willing to take anyone elses on any other method without proper documentation and sound logic.
Please let us know the results of your testing both before and after installation of the system (please include the brand names from the kits you're using). Also, what equipment did you remove and what equipment do you continue to run? Other information such as water changes, fish load, and revisions to your clean up crew would also be helpful. WIth this sort of information you will have a much better opportunity to gain support from the detractors. Look back at this thread. I never told people not to give it a shot. No really, look back. I'm more than willing to support your case but I'm not willing to take your word on this method any more than I'm willing to take anyone elses on any other method without proper documentation and sound logic.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
Thanks Fishdoc11 for reminding us to keep our cool. Sometimes it's easy to forget that some posts could be received with a different inflection than how they were intended. If your post was directed at me, I'm really not trying to bash the other posters. I'm not even against turf scrubbing - if people are trying this approach I am honestly interested in learning about their results.
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular miwoodar. I just came back to look at this thread and it seemed like several "non contructive" comments were made in the last couple of pages.......and of course that was after several in the few pages before that.
Chris
Chris
johnnybravo234
New member
This thread is for the discussion of cheap and easy to build turf scrubbers and that is exactly what the user who started it has been doing. From my own personal experience have found that these devices are very useful for most aquariums whether it is FOWLR, mixed, or SPS. They remove organics and also provide a food source for corals and fish. I dont really think there is one single drawback to setting one up aside from maybe the small ammount of space it will consume. I think the problem with the negative members is that they want to believe that the hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars they spent on their AA's, phosphate removers, zeo, ultralith, $1500 protien skimmers, etc.. may not have been necessary (which arent IME). This thread is also surely not helping the numerous snake oil manufacturers out there. All that is really needed is proper husbandry, a decent protein skilmmer, light, a fuge/ATS, and maybe a little sugar or vodka. After all, coral reefs do not have skimmers, phosban, or zeo. Isn't turf algae found in the ocean? Ignore the haters and thank you for the great thread!
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
Hey - I sent a handful of the folks that have participated a PM requesting that you post pics and numbers of your results. Then I realized that I should just post the message because there are probably a handful of people who feel the same way as you do but just haven't gotten involved. So here is the jist of the PM.
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If you have had good results, please let people know what approach you have used. Pics are a great help even if you don't have TOTM colors/quality. Just something to show people that last month you had an algae infested reef and this month you don't are all the proof you need at the moment.
I am sure that some people have been ticked off with some of my comments in the thread. Sorry if you fall into that category. I'm not trying to down SM or anyone else. It's all about the evidence. So far all anyone has seen...photos of algae on a screen. Nobody has posted before and after tank pics other than SM's and his tank actually looked better before IMO (there could have been many factors going on w/regards to the coralline growth...alk and Ca come to mind).
Post some pics to make people start discussing how you did it. I don't recall seeing anything regarding skimmers or carbon in hardly any of the posts. Are you using these in conjunction with SM's ideas?
BTW - I am a huge proponent of carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar, sugar). I feel your pain. People *very* often doubt that it works. However, I KNOW it does. In fact, that is what my company does. We clean up hazardous waste in ground water through carbon dosing. It works by a very similar process. Not only does it work, but we clean up spills that traditionally would have taken 30 years in only 10. In terms of reefing, many people think carbon dosing is nothing more than BS. I fight the same fight you are. Post some pics or some numbers to encourage people to start asking questions again.
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If you have had good results, please let people know what approach you have used. Pics are a great help even if you don't have TOTM colors/quality. Just something to show people that last month you had an algae infested reef and this month you don't are all the proof you need at the moment.
I am sure that some people have been ticked off with some of my comments in the thread. Sorry if you fall into that category. I'm not trying to down SM or anyone else. It's all about the evidence. So far all anyone has seen...photos of algae on a screen. Nobody has posted before and after tank pics other than SM's and his tank actually looked better before IMO (there could have been many factors going on w/regards to the coralline growth...alk and Ca come to mind).
Post some pics to make people start discussing how you did it. I don't recall seeing anything regarding skimmers or carbon in hardly any of the posts. Are you using these in conjunction with SM's ideas?
BTW - I am a huge proponent of carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar, sugar). I feel your pain. People *very* often doubt that it works. However, I KNOW it does. In fact, that is what my company does. We clean up hazardous waste in ground water through carbon dosing. It works by a very similar process. Not only does it work, but we clean up spills that traditionally would have taken 30 years in only 10. In terms of reefing, many people think carbon dosing is nothing more than BS. I fight the same fight you are. Post some pics or some numbers to encourage people to start asking questions again.
clekchau
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13325901#post13325901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tang Salad
We don't need to have tried it to understand the science behind it. Just as I don't need to pour coal dust into my car's gas tank to know that my car won't run on coal.
That said, many of the naysayers have tried it. If you go back a few pages you'll see their opinions.
and if you go back also, many people have tried it and it works, there is no tried and true method for a successful reef tank whether bb or dsb, live rock or wet dry/denitrator, refugium or ats, metal halides or t5's, calcium reactor or 2 part etc etc etc
although he could learn to take criticism better, i don't see why anyone would belittle someone who is so passionate about making the hobby better for all of us with his ideas.
i can guarantee you there are many tanks out there that look better than yours or the other naysayers, and not following your methods/husbandry, does that make you wrong? i think not.
as mentioned before we do need to hear both sides to make our own minds up, but as fishdoc has mentioned it could be in a freindly manner, its not just the doubters who have seemed rude, so lets get back to what the threads all about, my understanding is it is working but personally even though im tempted to try it out my skimmer just works for me and when i add my new sump with refugium in the next couple of weeks which is being made now im hoping my tank just keeps improving, should it not then i may give the scrubber a go
clekchau
Premium Member
i think he was banned ie his 'moved on' status
its not like he's making any money, he's promoting an idea that he thinks could revolotionize the hobby and does have some merits, whether he is right ro wrong, at least he is trying. you would think people would 'help' him with this endeaver rather than flame him into giving up , which i truly hope is not the case.
its not like he's making any money, he's promoting an idea that he thinks could revolotionize the hobby and does have some merits, whether he is right ro wrong, at least he is trying. you would think people would 'help' him with this endeaver rather than flame him into giving up , which i truly hope is not the case.
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