Weeds

[vlangel]

OK, here we go!

As I said before, this will be an aquarium showcasing Nature, and run by Nature. The substrate will be the foundation of that. Most of all, I want it to be a good home, for both seagrasses and a wide variety of micro and macro life. Rather than a pretty, sterile decoration, I want a 'workhorse' that plays a huge role in the overall ecosystem.

I hope to grow seagrass as the major structuring element of the community. Since seagrasses are higher plants, they have roots dedicated to extracting nutrients from the substrate. In order to provide a good home for them, I need to provide a fertile substrate. So, I will incorporate dirt and mud in it, along with the sand. I've been soaking some garden soil in water for months, and I have a good source of live mud. Once the tank is up and running, fish food, fish wastes and other organic particulates will continuously settle on the substrate, where they can be processed by detrivores, etcetera, recycling them into nutrients the seagrass can use.

How will I provide a good home to detrivores? Most of the substrate will be fine and soft, so they can easily move through it and find their ideal location. Larger grain sizes will also be provided, for some refuge at the substrate surface. Most importantly, I will not be filtering out particulates or attempt to keep them in suspension. There will be no mechanical filtration. Instead, detritus will be allowed to settle on the bottom, where the detrivores can get to them, just as they would in a lagoon setting. I'm hoping to introduce a diverse 'cast of thousands' through the addition of live rock, live sand and live mud. I'll also be incorporating some specific characters that can be added separately. I was able to save a good number of spaghetti worms from the old tank. They are currently flourishing in my holding tank. I'll be adding mixed pods, serpent stars and a sea cucumber as well. All of these creatures will be a vital part of the food web.

With a heavily planted tank, bacteria's role is reduced. But I do want to provide habitat for a variety of them. Some need a lot of oxygen, some need a little, some need none. Substrate depth, as well as grain size, can provide diverse levels of oxygen to accommodate diverse species of bacteria. Larger grain sizes at the top will allow higher oxygen levels in the pore water. Medium grain sizes at the mid level will provide lower oxygen levels. Very small grain sizes and mud at the bottom will provide habitat for bacteria needing no oxygen.

So the theme of my substrate is diversity. The more diversity, the more stable the ecosystem. Fostering diversity in the confines of a box is challenging, but all the more important, given the limits of space available.

The space limitation also calls for some limits on diversity. Obviously, we wouldn't add a large predator that eats all our fish. Accordingly, I don't plan to add any creatures that would prey on the ones that help maintain the food web. For example, wrasses. These fish are smart, hunting machines. They can devastate populations of pods and other tiny creatures that are needed to keep the system functioning. So we have to prioritize our choices to optimize the overall function of the ecosystem. No one species is more important than the the whole.

I hope you find this interesting! I think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby. Any questions?

Thank you Michael. I actually think I understood most of that in terms as to how you are going to do it and also why.

I am guessing any sandsifting fish as well as wrasses are out. What sort of cucumber and what part of the puzzle does it play? The cucumber I had was a sandsifting detritivour and I would think that would be out. Is it one of those little yellow types that stay above the surface?

So do you lay all the layers at once, or do you allow life to colonize each layer first? I guess anything anaerobic must have an enviroment that is without oxygen if its going to colonize so some areas will have to be deep right from the get go.

I can see that some of your limitations are...well, too limiting for my tastes but I still want to learn as much as possible to possibly craft a hybrid between what your tank embodies and other macro tanks.

 

[Chasmodes]

That's a great post Michael! I love this plan and can't wait to see the next version of your implementation. In my tanks, I enjoy the micro life, worms, pods, and invertebrates as much as the fish...almost. Yours will have a plethora of life, so very interesting.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Dawn!

Not all sand sifters are bad. Sea cucumbers, like spaghetti worms, are good because they process detritus down the chain to eventually feed the plants. Wrasses, sand-sifting fish and sand-sifting sea stars are predators of detrivores, so for me, they are bad. Make sense?

The sand bed will be built up all at once, more or less. Since I'm still ordering some of it, some might get added before I get it all, but there won't be any layer by layer colonization. Generally, it will be layered with the finest stuff on the bottom and the coarsest at the top.

I'm curious where you see limitations. What do you mean?

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Kevin!

Yeah, the micro life is fun stuff! I'm no expert but I'm learning. Maybe that's what makes it so fun. With a little luck, this tank will have lots more to teach me!

 

[vlangel]

Thanks Dawn!

Not all sand sifters are bad. Sea cucumbers, like spaghetti worms, are good because they process detritus down the chain to eventually feed the plants. Wrasses, sand-sifting fish and sand-sifting sea stars are predators of detrivores, so for me, they are bad. Make sense?

The sand bed will be built up all at once, more or less. Since I'm still ordering some of it, some might get added before I get it all, but there won't be any layer by layer colonization. Generally, it will be layered with the finest stuff on the bottom and the coarsest at the top.

I'm curious where you see limitations. What do you mean?

Yes, thank you for clarifying about the detrivores. It does make sense.

When I said it was too limiting, I did not mean that what you are building has limitations. What I meant was that my vision for my future tank is almost certainly going to include a wrasse. I love natural ecosystems but they are in place to showcase my fish. Your fish will be in place to showcase the ecosystem, so our focuses are somewhat different even though I greatly admire and appreciate what you are doing.

 

[Subsea]

“I think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby.”

Michael,
Your point about detrivore predators is right on target. Due to Red Planaria infestation, I introduced a Melanurus Wrasse to my 25 year old 6” deep sand-bed, it caused a major upset that required me to remove > 80% of sandbed.

In adding substrate with differrent grain sizes, eventually, the finer substrate will migrate to the bottom no matter where it is placed.

With respect to getting dirt from back yard, I take great pleasure in shocking the bare bottom group that promotes sterile conditions in their tanks. PaulB has promoted this concept for 47 years.

Keep the good news coming.


Dawn,
Anaerobic conditions do not necessarily have to be a deep sandbed. Fine silt or mud can promote anaerobic activity with 0.5” substrate.

 

[McPuff]

Hi Michael, terrific plan and I think it will work quite well, though I do think you will have to interfere on occassion to keep the system in balance. Consider yourself the Ma'at of your system. :0)

What I mean is this (and you've probably thought of it too) - despite the well planned system and players within, you're still likely to end up with an overabundance of waste/nutrients/etc. at some point. Probably not often but if you consider in nature there is a constant churn and waste products do not all settle in to the substrate on a macro bed. In your tank, however, it will. I really don't know how you can combat this effectively other than vacuuming the very top of the substrate every so often. But it may be something to consider. Don't mean to pick nits, and this is a pretty small nit. :0) You have me thinking though... when I see plans laid out by other people I think of it from my own perspective. "How would I approach this?" This really seems like a "watch and enjoy" system... easily 99% hands-off. That is going to be very enjoyable for you! Looking forward to seeing this wet.

 

[Jijlo]

This is awesome, I can't wait to see it progress further!

Ever since I started on this hobby when I was 12 the appeal to me was always to play fish god and create the most complete ecosystem possible within such a limited physical space.

There's just something humbling to try and replicate billions of years of natural process, using nature itself as your teacher. And once you find success the satisfaction of beholding what you've accomplished is unequal to anything I've ever experienced in the hobby.

Currently my saltwater tank is quite underwhelming, it's made to be as simple as possible. It's a 21 gallon with a single Orchid Dottyback, a massive colony of flower leather coral and a forest of caulerpa and ulva with dozens of different critters living in it.

The tank is so stable I have only done 3 water changes in five years, and they have all been when I moved house. The Dottyback spends all day hunting amongst the algae so I do not need to feed him at all.

0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, 0 maintenance.

Sorry for rambling, I just realised I haven't spoken about this hobby in years and seeing this thread lit a spark inside me that I forgot was there.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

OK Dawn, thanks for clarifying. I don't really see it as a limitation. Don't we all choose to avoid certain fish? Certainly we all have different philosophies and methods, and I realize mine are pretty out there!

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Patrick! You make some good points. Melanurus Wrasses, like a lot of the wrasses, are gorgeous, but maybe too good at what they do, for some setups. If I had to choose a wrasse for this tank, I think I'd choose the Flasher Wrasse. They are more of a water column plankton picker, and less of a benthic hunter.

Thanks for chiming in!

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks McPuff! I had to google Ma'at. I agree. Like the rest of us, I'll still have to step in and make adjustments. In my experience with the last tank, even with a wriggling, wall-to-wall detrivore filled sand bed, detritus still built up. This is normal for a seagrass bed in the wild, but it just wasn't pretty enough for display, for my taste. So, on a few occasions, I vacuumed. I don't expect that to change, this time around.

One thing I do hope to change this time is pruning. I had several fast growing macros that required weekly pruning. This time I'm going to be very particular which macros I introduce. If I do it right, pruning will be greatly reduced. Probably the biggest difference between v1 and v2 is that seagrass coverage will be increased, and macro coverage decreased.

 

[vlangel]

"œI think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby."

Michael,
Your point about detrivore predators is right on target. Due to Red Planaria infestation, I introduced a Melanurus Wrasse to my 25 year old 6" deep sand-bed, it caused a major upset that required me to remove > 80% of sandbed.

In adding substrate with differrent grain sizes, eventually, the finer substrate will migrate to the bottom no matter where it is placed.

With respect to getting dirt from back yard, I take great pleasure in shocking the bare bottom group that promotes sterile conditions in their tanks. PaulB has promoted this concept for 47 years.

Keep the good news coming.


Dawn,
Anaerobic conditions do not necessarily have to be a deep sandbed. Fine silt or mud can promote anaerobic activity with 0.5" substrate.

O I hadn't thought of that but its so dense I guess that oxygen doesn't permeate it. So much to digest.

 

[vlangel]

OK Dawn, thanks for clarifying. I don't really see it as a limitation. Don't we all choose to avoid certain fish? Certainly we all have different philosophies and methods, and I realize mine are pretty out there!

You are right Michael, limitation was the wrong word. We each will set our own parameters to get our desired effect. And I think yours is super cool, and who knows...I may change mine before I redo my tank, LOL.

 

[Chasmodes]

At some point, we do need to step in and solve problems now and then, to stabilize our box to mimic the vastness of nature. But, it sure is nice if you have to keep it to a minimum!

Currently my saltwater tank is quite underwhelming, it's made to be as simple as possible. It's a 21 gallon with a single Orchid Dottyback, a massive colony of flower leather coral and a forest of caulerpa and ulva with dozens of different critters living in it.

That sounds awesome! I don't find that underwhelming at all. You should start a tank thread of your own, post vids and pics

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Jijlo, and welcome!

It's a pleasure to hear from you! You appear to have accomplished an ideal I aspire to - the self sustaining aquarium. Congratulations! I had imagined it would probably need to be somewhat underwhelming to make it work, like a single, herbivorous fish and lots of plants. But you've done it with a carnivorous fish, critters and plants. So cool! I agree with Kevin. It doesn't sound underwhelming! That you can maintain a sustainable population of food for your dottyback in that small a tank is astounding!

It feels like I'm finally gaining momentum on my tank progress. I'm thrilled you've been inspired. Please feel free to question what I'm doing and ramble on any time!

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Dawn! No worries. It sounds like you're happy with your tried and true methods, and want to learn more about mine. But you don't want to abandon yours. I wouldn't either! You've been doing this for a long time and you know what works for you. Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion! So I have another question for you: Is there a specific thing I do that you think is just nuts or just too different than what you do?

Wrasses are beautiful fish. Do you have any in particular you're interested in?

 

[lapin]

You can safely eat popcorn and not break the rules of your carb diet. :0)

hahhaha I just got back from calif. 6 loaves of bread in my suitcase.

Good to get caught up and the progress here. Michael you have done a bang up job. Im interested to see how long it will take for the substraight to balance out.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Sourdough? Man I love bread! Sorry Kevin.

Thanks lapin! Nice to hear from you. On the substrate balancing out, what did you mean? Like how long will it take to get out of the ugly algae phase? Or something else?

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks to everyone who chimed in today. I really appreciate it! I hope I addressed everyone's comments. Please feel free to question and challenge what I'm doing. I love the discussion!

A quick update: I am still getting together all the sand, dirt and mud. So far, I have about 80 pounds of very fine oolithic sand, 20 pounds of garden soil, 50 pounds of silica sand, and 20 pounds of coarse, crushed coral gravel. I'm guessing I'll need close to double that much. I'll get the live mud and sand last, once I know the seagrasses are en route. SaltySully, who has posted here, is collecting seagrass for me. He's a licensed collector and knows his stuff. I'm so fortunate to have his help. Without him, I have no seagrass.

My attempts to bleach the new fake wall to match the old one has not been successful. Oh well. I still need to buff out the scratches in the tank. It looks like I'll be doing it before the tank is filled. I need to get it done!

 

[vlangel]

Thanks Dawn! No worries. It sounds like you're happy with your tried and true methods, and want to learn more about mine. But you don't want to abandon yours. I wouldn't either! You've been doing this for a long time and you know what works for you. Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion! So I have another question for you: Is there a specific thing I do that you think is just nuts or just too different than what you do?

Wrasses are beautiful fish. Do you have any in particular you're interested in?

I definitely do not think you are nuts. What draws me to your tank is your attention to details of the substrate. I love your methodology and I love the idea of cultivating and nurturing the microbial life to make the substrate so alive. You in fact influenced me when I recieved my macros yesterday. My supplier collects them from the keys so I not only added them but all the sand that came with them in hopes of divesifying my own substrate.

As far as a wrasse is concerned, I am limited to ones that can live in a tank under 60 gallons. I checked out live aquaria and there are a few. That is down the road however, there are other fish I want before a wrasse.

I have been thinking that when I no longer have the seahorses of using their 30g tank for a display fuge. I may apply your principles of how you do your substrate to that fuge where there will be no predators. It would be very easy to add between my drain to the sump and the sump since its a tall tank with a small footprint.