Weeds

Let's discuss dosing-for planted tanks. It's really just a fancy word for feeding. Like reef tanks, planted tanks require food. Plants consume a number of nutrients, and will strip them from a closed system in short order. Unlike reef tanks, where aquarists struggle to keep nutrients low, planted tanks require their keepers to maintain higher nutrients. It's rather a huge difference and calls for a huge change of mindset. We don't want to starve our systems, we want to fatten them up!

Plants can get all the nutrients they need from fish food alone. The only problem is the ratio of nutrients from fish food is not ideal for plants (or closed systems). Dosing addresses this problem.

So what do we dose? Mostly, it's the macro nutrients-the ones plants use a lot of. These are Carbon, Nitrogen and Phosphorus. The ratio of these is important. The average C-N-P ratio for seagrasses and macro algae is about 550-30-1.

With phosphorus being 1, we don't need to dose it. We get more than enough, just by feeding the fish. The exception would be a tank with no fish to feed. Then you would need to dose it.

Nitrogen is 30. That's thirty times MORE than Phosphorus. Big dif! New tanks naturally generate a lot of nitrogen during the Nitrogen Cycle. As the biological filter matures, bacteria consumes nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. So, biological (bacterial) filtration competes with plants for nitrogen. Nothing we can do about that, except we can deemphasize it by not adding anything specifically to 'help' it. So bio balls or other biological media are not needed. Nitrogen, in some form, will need to be dosed. One of the safest forms for aquariums (closed systems) is Potassium Nitrate, sold as stump remover at hardware stores. One of the riskiest forms is Ammonia. Why would anyone willingly dose Ammonia? Because it is plants' preferred form of Nitrogen. Plants have to work harder to use Nitrate. The danger is that Ammonia is also micro algae's favorite form of Nitrogen, so you run the risk of algae blooms, especially in smaller tanks or tanks with fewer plants. So stump remover is recommended, and ammonia is use at your own risk, and best left to larger, more heavily planted tanks.

At 550, Carbon is the big one. Plants need it more than ANY other nutrient. In nature and in aquariums, it is most often the limiting nutrient for plants. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is plants' preferred form of Carbon. Many fresh water planted tank keepers dose CO2, to get luxurious plant growth. It is just as helpful for marine plant keepers. A simple way to dose CO2, is to rent a 5 lb CO2 tank, top it with a regulator, and run airline tubing to the intake of a pump or a canister filter or reactor. If you already have a calcium reactor setup, you're good to go. For some reason, people seem to shy away from CO2. I don't know if it's the perceived complexity or the fear of exploding CO2 tanks. So the number one most important plant nutrient is often ignored! If I was told I could only dose one thing, it would be CO2.

The micro nutrients are ones that plants need in much smaller quantities. But, in our closed systems they get depleted too. Water changes alone can replace them, but the beauty of planted tanks is that they don't need frequent water changes, and dosing is easier. The one that gets used up the fastest is Iron. I use an iron supplement made for fresh water planted tanks. Calcium is also needed by plants. I add calcium media to my (CO2 injected) canister filter, to get a quasi-calcium reactor. For everything else, I use a trace element supplement, fish food and occasional water changes.

That's pretty much it, for the plants. I dose a few other things for other organisms. We'll discuss that next.
 
Great post! I bookmarked it for future reference. As far as refining your tank, I'd imagine it is fun for you, but more than that, you have a vision of your tank that you are aiming for, and doing this gets you there faster than had you kept your older version going.
 
Thanks Kevin! You're right. I'm still chasing that vision. I learned a lot from the previous system. I hope to apply it and improve on the original. Getting there a little faster would be good too.
 
Thanks taricha. Yes, I would expect the mud to have abundant organic material, as well as all kinds of fauna, adding biodiversity. I have read that seagrass likes soft, muddy sand to root in. In the previous setup, I added some of this mud, then covered it with sand, so it's not exposed to light or the bulk water. The grasses responded well.

I got it from Florida Pets. It is actual, black, stinky mud. So you don't need a lot.

Rather than planting in clean sand, I want to give the grasses a fertile home right from the start, rather than waiting for nutrients to build up. And since they are true, rooted plants, they take up a lot of nutrients from the soil.

So hopefully, my dirty sand bed will provide a good home to both the grasses and micro fauna, adding nutrients and diversity to the foundation of the ecosystem.

While we're on the subject, I wanted to elaborate on the reasoning for using multiple sand grain sizes. Layers of different grain sizes are conducive to different pore water oxygen levels and thus different kinds of bacteria. By layering with coarse at the top, medium in the middle and fine on the bottom, I should get a gradient from aerobic to anaerobic to anoxic conditions. This should foster diversity in bacteria, which is a good thing. Also, the coarse top layer provides habitat (and refuge) for pods and other tiny creatures to feed on accumulating detritus.


I have some of the florida pets mud in a little HOB fuge on my 24G aquapod reef tank. It really is black stinky mud haha. My reef tank seems to love it, but since adding it I can't seem to keep macro alive anymore. I get layers of bacteria growth on the top layer of the mud then as it puts off gas it literally raises the entire mat to the top of the water which then floats out into my sponge. The process repeats every day. It seems like the bacteria are actually outcompeting my ulva for nutrients.

My coral however, has never looked better and I get no cyano or anything in my main tank. I do however need to seed it with more micro life. Pods don't seem to care for it as much and while I do have some burrowing brittle stars (also from florida pets) they don't seem to eat or affect it much.

I really would like to find more things to properly seed it with, but living in AZ gives me limited choices and places like ISPF are just way to damn expensive.
 
Welcome mndfreeze!

In my experience, ulva seems to need to be driven hard, with high light and high nutrients. Your reef tank may be too clean to support good growth. Great to hear your corals are happy! For reef tanks, choosing a macro that can grow in lower nutrients is a challenge. You may want to try a slower growing red macro.

I don't think the mud alone is a great home for a lot of life. It is likely mostly anoxic (no oxygen). I haven't really experimented with it much. In my limited experience, it seems to be best as a small component of a deep sand bed.

For seeding your mud, consider GCE's live sand. It's the best, most alive I've found, and pretty reasonable. Also, adding a bag of pods could help.

Good luck!
 
Sorry wasn't meaning to thread jack there, I mostly just wanted to comment on the florida pets mud. :D I buy bags of pods from them too. Helped to keep a stubborn possum wrasse alive until I got it to finally start eating dried food.

I've added pods back there. It's just a little finnex breeder box with a divider. One side is the mud, with some burrowing brittle stars in it, other side of just ulva. Light goes across both sides. I had zero problems with macros until the mud came into the picture. Just thought it was strange. I'm torn on removing the mud because it's definitely not a DSB setup or anything, maybe 2 inches deep. Bacteria seems to love it though and keeps it out of my display. What company is GCE? Does their live sand have actual organisms beyond just bacteria? That's really what I want. Worms n bugs n stuff.

Great build btw, I've been tagging along for a while. Can't wait to see more!
 
I don't consider it a hijack at all. I love discussing this stuff! You're the only other person I know who's used that mud, so it's good to compare notes. As you said, maybe the bacteria associated with the mud is outcompeting your macros. Or it could have just coincided with your tank maturing, and system nutrient levels dropped below what the macros need.

GCE is Gulf Coast Ecosystems, live-plantsdotcom. Their live sand is the real deal, with actual worms 'n stuff.

Thanks for tagging along, mndfreeze!
 
Let's discuss dosing-for planted tanks. It's really just a fancy word for feeding. Like reef tanks, planted tanks require food. Plants consume a number of nutrients, and will strip them from a closed system in short order. Unlike reef tanks, where aquarists struggle to keep nutrients low, planted tanks require their keepers to maintain higher nutrients. It's rather a huge difference and calls for a huge change of mindset. We don't want to starve our systems, we want to fatten them up!

Plants can get all the nutrients they need from fish food alone. The only problem is the ratio of nutrients from fish food is not ideal for plants (or closed systems). Dosing addresses this problem.

So what do we dose? Mostly, it's the macro nutrients-the ones plants use a lot of. These are Carbon, Nitrogen and Phosphorus. The ratio of these is important. The average C-N-P ratio for seagrasses and macro algae is about 550-30-1.

With phosphorus being 1, we don't need to dose it. We get more than enough, just by feeding the fish. The exception would be a tank with no fish to feed. Then you would need to dose it.

Nitrogen is 30. That's thirty times MORE than Phosphorus. Big dif! New tanks naturally generate a lot of nitrogen during the Nitrogen Cycle. As the biological filter matures, bacteria consumes nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. So, biological (bacterial) filtration competes with plants for nitrogen. Nothing we can do about that, except we can deemphasize it by not adding anything specifically to 'help' it. So bio balls or other biological media are not needed. Nitrogen, in some form, will need to be dosed. One of the safest forms for aquariums (closed systems) is Potassium Nitrate, sold as stump remover at hardware stores. One of the riskiest forms is Ammonia. Why would anyone willingly dose Ammonia? Because it is plants' preferred form of Nitrogen. Plants have to work harder to use Nitrate. The danger is that Ammonia is also micro algae's favorite form of Nitrogen, so you run the risk of algae blooms, especially in smaller tanks or tanks with fewer plants. So stump remover is recommended, and ammonia is use at your own risk, and best left to larger, more heavily planted tanks.

At 550, Carbon is the big one. Plants need it more than ANY other nutrient. In nature and in aquariums, it is most often the limiting nutrient for plants. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is plants' preferred form of Carbon. Many fresh water planted tank keepers dose CO2, to get luxurious plant growth. It is just as helpful for marine plant keepers. A simple way to dose CO2, is to rent a 5 lb CO2 tank, top it with a regulator, and run airline tubing to the intake of a pump or a canister filter or reactor. If you already have a calcium reactor setup, you're good to go. For some reason, people seem to shy away from CO2. I don't know if it's the perceived complexity or the fear of exploding CO2 tanks. So the number one most important plant nutrient is often ignored! If I was told I could only dose one thing, it would be CO2.

The micro nutrients are ones that plants need in much smaller quantities. But, in our closed systems they get depleted too. Water changes alone can replace them, but the beauty of planted tanks is that they don't need frequent water changes, and dosing is easier. The one that gets used up the fastest is Iron. I use an iron supplement made for fresh water planted tanks. Calcium is also needed by plants. I add calcium media to my (CO2 injected) canister filter, to get a quasi-calcium reactor. For everything else, I use a trace element supplement, fish food and occasional water changes.

That's pretty much it, for the plants. I dose a few other things for other organisms. We'll discuss that next.

Is it ok to use freshwater planted tank additives for marine planted tanks, such as Seachem Flourish line, as long as it does not contain copper? If it contains very small amounts of copper, is it still ok? And since seagrass are heavy root feeders, how about root tabs? Regarding dosing CO2, I think people shy away from it because they are afraid that the CO2 will greatly lower their pH if too much is added. How does one find out the amount of CO2 needed for the marine planted tank, say how many bubbles per minute? Is it by trial and error? Also, is Seachem Flourish Excel, which is a form of liquid carbon, ok for marine planted tanks? Sorry for the large number of questions, especially if they have already been answered.
 
Yes, I think it is OK to use freshwater stuff. I've noticed some companies have started marketing their plant additives for marine applications too lately. I have used some, but generally, I prefer to use additives that are just one thing, rather than a combination of multiple things. That way you have more control over individual additions. I would think an additive with very small amounts of copper is OK. It's probably added to combat algae. Sensitive invertebrates may have a problem though.

I have tried several different root tabs. Honestly, I don't know if they helped or not. It's especially hard to know because seagrasses grow slowly, so when you add something, it takes around two weeks to see results. By then, you might think that something else has affected them. I will continue experimenting with them and report my results. I read that seagrasses prefer to get phosphorus through their roots, so the last tab I tried had a lot of phosphate. However, since fish food and fish poo already contain a lot of phosphate, and they settle on the bottom, it's probably not necessary. My strategy for this tank is to load the sand bed up with dirt and mud, so it is fertile from the start.

pH swings can be problematic so you need to be careful, but it's not rocket science. Bubble rates will vary for different tanks. It's been trial and error for me, but I bet there are some good online articles on ideal CO2 levels for fresh water planted tanks. So, you could probably find the ideal numbers to hit, and go from there.

I know some others have used Excel. I would guess it has bicarbonates, which are plants second favorite form of carbon.

Great questions, WYA123. Keep 'em coming!
 
I don't consider it a hijack at all. I love discussing this stuff! You're the only other person I know who's used that mud, so it's good to compare notes. As you said, maybe the bacteria associated with the mud is outcompeting your macros. Or it could have just coincided with your tank maturing, and system nutrient levels dropped below what the macros need.

GCE is Gulf Coast Ecosystems, live-plantsdotcom. Their live sand is the real deal, with actual worms 'n stuff.

Thanks for tagging along, mndfreeze!

Ok awesome, I'm familiar with live-plants but didn't make the connection. I was originally going to order a different macro through them when I noticed florida pets had the ulva as I was placing a pod order. I'm definitely considering removing the mud for that sand then as I don't think that little breeder turned fuge is quite right for it. My other line of thinking was to find a small bright light I could aim at JUST the side with the ulva, as it seems the bacteria doesn't really bubble and film up badly when the lights are off. The grow light it came with is a little LED bar that is designed to light the entire thing. I'd need a small directional LED bulb. I hate being so limited in space and choice with a 24G AIO tank, especially a super super old one (aquapod). I can't wait until I can start building a proper full system with a real fuge. The fuge is more fun and neat than the tank most of the time haha. More weird stuff there. :D
 
The weird stuff is the fun stuff, isn't it?

I wanted to mention a couple other things I dose. These are not for the plants, but for filter feeders and the tiny creatures at the bottom of the food chain. They are phytoplankton and sodium silicate. Sponges, feather dusters, tunicates and a wide variety of really small critters should enjoy the phytoplankton. Sodium silicate is for sponges. Silicate is the building block of sponges, and our aquariums provide very little of it. It's what calcium is to corals. If you have sponges and feed them, but they don't seem to grow, silicate is likely the missing piece of the puzzle.

So, in attempting to start up a new ecosystem, it makes sense to feed the bottom of it. It's kind a microcosm of the beginning of life on Earth.
 
This is a different product - not alive, not full of good stinky organics, but here's a snapshot of what a "mud" might contain that's different from the normal caco3 substrates we use in the hobby.
Miracle mud analysis
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/faq/miracle-mud-independent-analysis/
Things I think are interesting and good in it. Iron, manganese, a few other trace elements one would normally dose, and lots of silicon.
(I think it's weird that we obsess about matching precise NSW values in everything, except we insist zero silica is a must have.)
 
Cool! I always wondered about that stuff. Thanks taricha!

It would be interesting to see a comparison of all the 'muds' commercially available to aquarists. I'm sure that most, if not all, can be beneficial, especially for reef tank applications (refugia). Kinda pricey though. They may save some cash on dosing.

For most people, silica = diatoms, so they avoid it. If diatoms are the first algae to form in my tank, I'll take it as a good sign, that life is beginning. Like I did with the previous tank, I'll mix in some silica sand to help provide a baseline source of silicates, and dose sodium silicate to provide a surplus.
 
I wanted to elaborate a little more on some of the ideas, and methodologies for this aquarium.

First, let me say I wasn't a particularly good reef keeper. I came to the conclusion that I just wasn't up to it. It was too much like work to me. I wanted something beautiful to look at, but easier to do. So I tried something different-a fresh water planted tank. I had some success and I learned a lot about a whole, new side of aquarium keeping. I had a beautiful, planted display, and all was right in the world…

But, eventually I got the salt water itch again. This time, wouldn't it be cool to combine what I learned on both sides of the hobby? And do I really need to try to keep the most challenging creatures in the sea? How about something easier?

Algae is Mother Nature's way of telling us we need plants. Why argue? Why do we struggle against Nature? Wouldn't it be better to work WITH Nature? Using plants to balance with animals is an elegant solution to the biggest challenge of aquarium keeping-nutrient control. Algae scrubbers and refugiums are great, but why not put the plants right in the display? Why not make THEM the display? And couldn't we learn more about Nature if we used IT, rather than man-made devices?

What I wanted was just one big tank, chock full of nature, and low on external devices. I want to see if it is possible to assist nature in building an ecosystem in a box. I provide light, water movement, temperature control, food input and export. Nature does the rest. So, rather than buying a gizmo to solve a problem, I ask myself, how does Nature do it? How can I facilitate that natural process? How does one process influence another? How does Nature coordinate all these processes in functioning ecosystems?

So much to learn! I believe this naturalist approach to aquarium keeping has a lot to teach me.

What do you think? I'd love to hear from you!
 
Great stuff man, and as I've said, I love the theory and practice behind your tank. I'm sure to incorporate much into my final build. So far, with my smaller version of my system, I haven't had as much luck with the macros. My 20g long still has the black Gracilaria living, but not growing all that much. And in my 20g high, the two species of Ulva died off, except for one large leaf of Ulva lactuca that is still hanging on.

So, my plan for the future of the larger tank is to, like you, build from the ground up...get as much life into the sand bed as I can. The main difference is that I most likely won't grow seagrass, at least for now, until my tank is established. I may rethink that approach later. But, I want my local macros to thrive. Adding a dosing process of CO2 along with my fancy new light fixture should do the trick, along with some tweaking of nutrients via dosing. The heavy bioload should provide more than enough nitrogen.

In my current tanks, the lighting seems to be the missing link. I may try a simple plant grow light and see how that does.

Anyway, while here, I'll definitely be glued to this thread watching your progress. Not only is this thread of yours a resource for me, it's entertaining ;)
 
Thanks Kevin. So glad to hear this is entertaining!

I'm really looking forward to your final build! I've enjoyed following your journey. Your oyster reef is unique!

I'd like to offer some thoughts and advice.

I agree that your equipment has limited your success with macros. In the mean time, you've focused on the fish (and the rest of the ecosystem) with great success. Once you have all the tools you need, you'll have the opportunity to focus more on plants, if you like. It does require focus and priority. I think it will require somewhat of a shift in your thinking, putting plants at the top of your priorities. Luckily, you have sturdy fish and no corals to distract from the focus required to have success with plants.

I'm not suggesting you become a full-on plant nerd. I'm just saying your INITIAL focus should be to optimize conditions for the plants you want. When starting up the new build, ask yourself, "how do I optimize this tank for plant growth?" I really believe it takes this kind of mentality. And luckily, taking care of plants also helps the rest of the ecosystem.

Feel free to question this. After all, I may be wrong! I know I have much to learn.
 
I'm not suggesting you become a full-on plant nerd. I'm just saying your INITIAL focus should be to optimize conditions for the plants you want. When starting up the new build, ask yourself, "how do I optimize this tank for plant growth?" I really believe it takes this kind of mentality. And luckily, taking care of plants also helps the rest of the ecosystem.

Thank you for the advice Michael. I really appreciate it. The quote above is exactly what I'd like to do. That is why this thread is so important to me, because in just a few pages and posts, you've written the basic steps and explained it so clearly, and I thank you for that. The problem that I had with my current tank is that it was never supposed to be permanent, so pumping dollars into it isn't really an option.

My plan for my larger tank is to also build from the ground up, establish that food chain. I have the luxury of collecting my own live mud and sand right from the ecosystem that my fish are from and will take advantage of that to seed my substrate. I have the lighting that I think will be perfect for growing macros and even grasses if I go that route. The beauty of the temporary tank is that I can keep raising the fish while my ecosystem builds and matures in the other tank. I don't need the fish in it right away, so I can get the plants growing, etc. although I may need to dose ammonia unless I can get enough of an invertebrate bioload going. Plus, I'd want the tank fallow of fish anyway to reduce the chance of fish parasitism later on. I also need to make sure that I provide the trace elements needed for the macros to thrive.

I think the next piece of equipment that I might need to buy is the CO2 regulator. However, I got to thinking, since I'm on well water, it is possible that I already have high CO2 levels even after it goes through RO/DI filtration. I was reading how reefers on this forum feel the need to off gas CO2 in between the RO and DI stages. Since I want CO2, then I wouldn't have to do that, and maybe won't need the regulator? How would I know that? Is there a test for that?

And here is another question. Do you think that I should build my substrate in case I may add grasses? If I didn't add grasses, would the macros use those nutrients just as much? I guess that was my initial concern, not that I wouldn't want them, but collecting the species that I want might be difficult.
 
You are welcome! I agree, no need to spend cash on the temporary setup. Save it for the big show! As for CO2, that's up to you. You don't have to supplement it. Injecting CO2 just makes it easier to have success with plants. Without supplementation, plants grow slower, since they have to work harder to find available CO2 (or bicarbonates). I would think there is a way to test CO2 levels.

I think you are good to go, using local substrates. They probably have everything grasses and macros need. I think it gives you an edge, having a natural substrate that is already 'seasoned'. I have to buy the clean stuff, and add dirt and mud to season it.

Starting up the big tank, I'd advise you plant heavily, to outcompete algae and to see what does well for you. If you have a local grass, you might give it a try. Or maybe you have a favorite local macro. Research the needs of the plants you like and try to provide as ideal conditions as practical.

It really takes a committed effort to grow plants. So far, you have not had much luck with plants. What do you plan to do differently?

Then, the focus changes as your tank matures. First the focus is substrate, then plants, then other inverts like tunicates, then fish. Each stage supports the next, from the bottom up!
 
Rispa, I do not grow my own phytoplankton. Too lazy!

Florida Aqua Farms sells the stuff to do it:

floridaaquafarmsdotcom
 
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