firebirdude
User and Abuser
EXACTLY! Seems to happen the most with zoanthids. Infuriates me! :furious:
What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore?
- Thread starter doctorgori
- Start date
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I've gotten to where I can even appreciate the algae, as well. It certainly doesn't bother me like it used to and it serves as a home/food source to a great many organisms. Something I didn't see before because I was trying so hard to annihilate it.
A topic unto itself for sure, but as a tangent, the above is instant gold. Using this as my next LE coral moniker, how can I lose?
usefulidiot213
Bryan H.
As long as people continue to pay poop tons of money for
"Nuclear Green Titmouse Nipples"
People will continue to jack up the prices.
"Nuclear Green Titmouse Nipples"
People will continue to jack up the prices.
doctorgori
New member
I wonder if the "green bay packers" zoos and the "nuclear green titmouse" zoos are popular along a generational slant...I mean some of the names seem a lil "pimply faced" to me...
I noticed a similar phenom in the killifish & cichlid areas: I called it "aquatic pokemon cards" and p*ssed a lot of people off with the analogy, but yet it is all too accurate
...and I also saw this happening back in the early 90's when the testosterone levels on the NG's got a bit much...when things get "Cliquish" and people start measuring whos got the biggest skimmer, I'm guessing a few teens are on the other side of the KB (nothing wrong with kids in the hobby, we need it but it is what it is)
...just guessing none of the phD types that drop in RC came up with those names
I noticed a similar phenom in the killifish & cichlid areas: I called it "aquatic pokemon cards" and p*ssed a lot of people off with the analogy, but yet it is all too accurate
...and I also saw this happening back in the early 90's when the testosterone levels on the NG's got a bit much...when things get "Cliquish" and people start measuring whos got the biggest skimmer, I'm guessing a few teens are on the other side of the KB (nothing wrong with kids in the hobby, we need it but it is what it is)
...just guessing none of the phD types that drop in RC came up with those names
jimmyj7090
aka John K
Great discussion.
To me "reef tank" has come to mean anything that is saltwater, and more complex than just fish.
From there, there are all sorts of ways to specialize or become more specific. Examples might include;
-Recreating particular locations (Figi reef crest)
-systems planned/stocked around specific types of fish or other creatures (ritteri anemone tank)
-systems designed around shiny bling corals (pokeman card reef)
-non-photosynthetic reef (non-photosynthetic reef)
-Cold water reef (cold water reef)
-or endless other areas of focus....
I'm thinking in terms of;
Hobbies>Pets>fishtank>Reeftank>figi reef crest
To me "reef tank" has come to mean anything that is saltwater, and more complex than just fish.
From there, there are all sorts of ways to specialize or become more specific. Examples might include;
-Recreating particular locations (Figi reef crest)
-systems planned/stocked around specific types of fish or other creatures (ritteri anemone tank)
-systems designed around shiny bling corals (pokeman card reef)
-non-photosynthetic reef (non-photosynthetic reef)
-Cold water reef (cold water reef)
-or endless other areas of focus....
I'm thinking in terms of;
Hobbies>Pets>fishtank>Reeftank>figi reef crest
rayn
New member
This has me wondering after reading through...doesn't this make every tank a reef tank? Even the lowest stocked fowlr would have the tiny organisms and pods growing in the tank. The longer it is set up the more diversity there is.
This thread has also made me consider a total different approach to the upgrade...fishless!
This thread has also made me consider a total different approach to the upgrade...fishless!
firebirdude
User and Abuser
Like I said. A reef tank requires coral, rock and water. The barren desolate ocean isn't called a reef, fish or not. And rocks close to shore are not called a reef. Corals are what make it a reef.
And I'm going fish-less in the tank I'm setting up now. I travel too much to worry about feeding the fish every day. And the vacation feeder dealie is a pita.
doctorgori
New member
heck drilling down further, the definition of what constitutes a "reef tank" has simply come to symbolize anything that holds water and eventually has "something" sumberged but covered in coraline algae....
shoot, G.A.R.F in thier noble efforts to relieve pressure on natural reefs started the dead rock movement with thier moss & cement incarnations posing as "live rock" (and some looked dang good)...and this trend has since expanded to include coraline covered dead rock...with the resultant artifical framework stocked with designer zoos, bright acros, ultra donuts...and then w/o so much a sniff of any other lower life forms or unwanted algaes whatsoever (all with the goal of mitigating troublesome hitchhickers)
...and again, the snarky tone isn't exactly bashing, but the concern as to where the bulk of the hobbyist are headed could be one... sure some of us ole skoolers and younger geeks will appreciate diverse & smaller invert centric tanks, but I'm wondering if the bulk of the videogamer-ish generation "z" teens will prefer more "bling" centric tanks involving as much tech centric equipment and as little effort and bothersome "bugs" as possible?
...and is this a good thing when one considers the eco-educational aspects that are a side benefit of this hobby?
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doctorgori
New member
....soapbox continues.....
this trend sorta reminds me of the "housewives" around N.Ohio panacking because they sighted the 1st bobcat in 100yrs around here ....
point being these so labeled "ecological pest" are removed from the system at our own peril...they become "pest" because our attempts to alter or duplicate a enviorment fall short somewhere
I figure the closer I come to duplicating a true slice of the "System" the less these pest will become a issue (they aren't problems in the wild) .... and of course this has its limits as one cannot simply account for every "managing" link in within the limits of a aquariums limited food chain
this trend sorta reminds me of the "housewives" around N.Ohio panacking because they sighted the 1st bobcat in 100yrs around here ....
point being these so labeled "ecological pest" are removed from the system at our own peril...they become "pest" because our attempts to alter or duplicate a enviorment fall short somewhere
I figure the closer I come to duplicating a true slice of the "System" the less these pest will become a issue (they aren't problems in the wild) .... and of course this has its limits as one cannot simply account for every "managing" link in within the limits of a aquariums limited food chain
Jon_Hewett_85
Member
I think the cutoff for a "reef tank" vs. a "saltwater fish tank" is when the focus of the tank is on the inverts.
I completely agree with drgori. I am not on board with the "sterile" tanks that seem to be so prevelent these days. I still subscribe to the maximum biodiversity way of doing things. I see so many threads that state: "I'm going with all dry rock so that I don't have to deal with any pests". Most of the pests that you are going to encounter really aren't a big deal IMO. I think a few flatworms or aiptasia is a small price to pay for the ASTOUNDING amount of life that you find on quality live rock, most of it being benign or beneficial. I'm continually amazed at all of the critters that pop up on the live rock. I've been at this a long time and still see stuff in/on my rock that makes me go whoaaa...thats wild!.
Besides, once a tank is setup, use the cycling/stabilizeing time to deal with any of this. In the future if you add anything to the tank....QUARANTINE!!
I completely agree with drgori. I am not on board with the "sterile" tanks that seem to be so prevelent these days. I still subscribe to the maximum biodiversity way of doing things. I see so many threads that state: "I'm going with all dry rock so that I don't have to deal with any pests". Most of the pests that you are going to encounter really aren't a big deal IMO. I think a few flatworms or aiptasia is a small price to pay for the ASTOUNDING amount of life that you find on quality live rock, most of it being benign or beneficial. I'm continually amazed at all of the critters that pop up on the live rock. I've been at this a long time and still see stuff in/on my rock that makes me go whoaaa...thats wild!.
Besides, once a tank is setup, use the cycling/stabilizeing time to deal with any of this. In the future if you add anything to the tank....QUARANTINE!!
Good analogy
BTW I found another way to get that crowd upset, point out they paying hundreds (and even thousands during the acan craze) for frag of a colony that the seller brought wholesale for somewhere between $10 and $50...and the high end of that range didn't come along till the wholesalers clued in on the trend. I got told I was a "hater" for pointing out they were being taking to the cleaners :lol:Actually, when you get away from the hobby, any hard underwater structure is often called a reef. Clusters of granite rock in the North East, large oyester beds and mussel beds are all called reefs. Just not coral reefs
mussel and hate
New member
I think a "reef tank" is any aquarium primarily dedicated to maintaining corals and associated life.
The question gets tougher when you try to determine what level of success is required to fulfill the mandate. Some people throw a bunch of coral and fish in a freshly mixed box of water, all doomed. Is that a "reef tank"? If you change out all the dead stock daily your tank will have the appearance of a reef but the tenure of the inmates may be brief, still it technically qualifies. Just because a thing is done poorly doesn't change what sort of a thing it is.
While I personally enjoy studying the little things, the ugly bugs slimes and crusts as much as or perhaps more than oohing an awwing at the pretty colorful discs I can't say that my way is best or right. I like to limit the required human intervention and become an observer; a voyeur spying on the private lives of tropical sea-creature inmates going about their daily routine. If some prefer to continually have a hand-in(literally) maintaining natures balance who am I to draw the line? It's all cycles of life and death after all, the only variable is duration.
Edit: /begin rant
I'm glad so many people enjoy this hobby but I'm not sure I like where the hobby as a collective whole is headed. I frequently read ridiculously bad recommendations here such as "throw out all your liverock and start fresh" and my reaction is ***? someone with 5000 posts really thinks the appropriate move is to $hitcan a chunk of the ocean and buy the fresh? This in the same forum where it's taboo to keep a yellow tang in a 55! Morality is oh-so subjective. Reefkeeping has a whole industry now, like car tires or cigars. We have fans, advocates, shills and apologists they come along with the big money. Why should anyone feel passion for disposable commodities anyway?
In our visual stimulus overload centric culture a hopelessly overstocked coral smorgasboard is much more appealing than a sparsely populated yet environmentally stable box of rocks. Certainly the WWW is partially if not wholly to blame with it's instant gratification emphasis on pictoral/video content. In the heyday of rec.aquaria.reefs prior to AOL you only had internet access if you were a university student/faculty/staff or military/govt. The tight circle of reefing nerds weren't impressed so much by shiny things. In our global eternal September the slack jawed mouth breathers drive markets and media with their lust for shiny. That's why we have designer corals. That's why Acan frags are out of fashion and cheap just now. Style isn't predicated on reason, it has naught to do with biology, chemistry or physics and style is the master that compels seemingly rational, clever people to kill a box of exotic sea life out of plain ignorance and malaise just because it all looked so beautiful in the TOTM photos.
Even the nerds' devotion to technology has been perverted with a never ending product cycle of obscenely priced components that yield no measurable benefit over existing equipment in the hands of the average reefer. But hey, it's good for the economy if not for the reefs right?
/endrant
The question gets tougher when you try to determine what level of success is required to fulfill the mandate. Some people throw a bunch of coral and fish in a freshly mixed box of water, all doomed. Is that a "reef tank"? If you change out all the dead stock daily your tank will have the appearance of a reef but the tenure of the inmates may be brief, still it technically qualifies. Just because a thing is done poorly doesn't change what sort of a thing it is.
While I personally enjoy studying the little things, the ugly bugs slimes and crusts as much as or perhaps more than oohing an awwing at the pretty colorful discs I can't say that my way is best or right. I like to limit the required human intervention and become an observer; a voyeur spying on the private lives of tropical sea-creature inmates going about their daily routine. If some prefer to continually have a hand-in(literally) maintaining natures balance who am I to draw the line? It's all cycles of life and death after all, the only variable is duration.
Edit: /begin rant
I'm glad so many people enjoy this hobby but I'm not sure I like where the hobby as a collective whole is headed. I frequently read ridiculously bad recommendations here such as "throw out all your liverock and start fresh" and my reaction is ***? someone with 5000 posts really thinks the appropriate move is to $hitcan a chunk of the ocean and buy the fresh? This in the same forum where it's taboo to keep a yellow tang in a 55! Morality is oh-so subjective. Reefkeeping has a whole industry now, like car tires or cigars. We have fans, advocates, shills and apologists they come along with the big money. Why should anyone feel passion for disposable commodities anyway?
In our visual stimulus overload centric culture a hopelessly overstocked coral smorgasboard is much more appealing than a sparsely populated yet environmentally stable box of rocks. Certainly the WWW is partially if not wholly to blame with it's instant gratification emphasis on pictoral/video content. In the heyday of rec.aquaria.reefs prior to AOL you only had internet access if you were a university student/faculty/staff or military/govt. The tight circle of reefing nerds weren't impressed so much by shiny things. In our global eternal September the slack jawed mouth breathers drive markets and media with their lust for shiny. That's why we have designer corals. That's why Acan frags are out of fashion and cheap just now. Style isn't predicated on reason, it has naught to do with biology, chemistry or physics and style is the master that compels seemingly rational, clever people to kill a box of exotic sea life out of plain ignorance and malaise just because it all looked so beautiful in the TOTM photos.
Even the nerds' devotion to technology has been perverted with a never ending product cycle of obscenely priced components that yield no measurable benefit over existing equipment in the hands of the average reefer. But hey, it's good for the economy if not for the reefs right?
/endrant
doctorgori
New member
^^ Well said.... but there are MANY who will steer clear of this discussion outta either guilt or condemnation and they ought not....
...^this is in a similar vein to my "Fur vs leather" analogy: its all a matter of perspective vs. awarness (nobody throws paint on peoples shoes yet somehow a fox is more "worthy" of our affection than a cow)
So I think the crusade against Tang cruelty is noble but slightly off the mark....the more subjective and larger issue is keeping something "captive" regardless and the motive behind it, same goes for subjecting a damsel to cycling vs. tossing in a dead fish (my guess is the dead fish would love to trade places) ...I'm not taking shots at noble "causes", just adding another broader perspective
..eitherway, if you live long enough you will notice most "causes" can be a flavor of the month thing no different than clothes, but hopefully (in the case of Tang cruelty, civil rights, or whatever), the difference being you hope the "cause" looses intrest due to education ...
you mention alt.rec NG's....spammers and un-moderated cliquishish "Cyber punks" killed off that arena simultaneously as www forums displaced them ... and I see a similar dynamic here: "reef tanks" as we know them seem to be "displaced" by what I term to be "menageries": tanks with more tech than art in the maintenece and more "Art" than realism in the appearance
(just taking trends, and not preaching pers se...heck see my list of toys below in the sig line)
...^this is in a similar vein to my "Fur vs leather" analogy: its all a matter of perspective vs. awarness (nobody throws paint on peoples shoes yet somehow a fox is more "worthy" of our affection than a cow)
So I think the crusade against Tang cruelty is noble but slightly off the mark....the more subjective and larger issue is keeping something "captive" regardless and the motive behind it, same goes for subjecting a damsel to cycling vs. tossing in a dead fish (my guess is the dead fish would love to trade places) ...I'm not taking shots at noble "causes", just adding another broader perspective
..eitherway, if you live long enough you will notice most "causes" can be a flavor of the month thing no different than clothes, but hopefully (in the case of Tang cruelty, civil rights, or whatever), the difference being you hope the "cause" looses intrest due to education ...
you mention alt.rec NG's....spammers and un-moderated cliquishish "Cyber punks" killed off that arena simultaneously as www forums displaced them ... and I see a similar dynamic here: "reef tanks" as we know them seem to be "displaced" by what I term to be "menageries": tanks with more tech than art in the maintenece and more "Art" than realism in the appearance
(just taking trends, and not preaching pers se...heck see my list of toys below in the sig line)
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sucker_fish
Member
what constitutes a reef tank to me is biodiversity. Live rock, corals, fish, micro and macro organisms. Basically I try to replicate a natural coral reef area, hitch hikers included. I stay away from "ultra", "LE", or "rare" anything. Out of the croals in my tank I couldn't tell you if I have "bubble gum boobies" or "speckled monkey eyes on fire". If I see a coral that I like I buy it, if I want to buy a frag and someone tells me they want $500 for a 1/2 inch piece I wont buy it. IMO there are too many people trying to run sterile tanks with high dollar bling corals, too much of a status symbol for me, just give me the "dirty" water and no name corals and I'm happy as pie.
mussel and hate
New member
At the risk of wandering OT I'd like to explore this notion a bit further.
I'm preaching
It was actually the AOLers that initially caused this hence the pejorative use of the term and why I describe our current situation as an global eternal September http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September. Commercially available internet access changed the nature of usenet use by changing the participants.
The same sort of thing has happened with reefkeeping. Commercial interests have exploited a previously nerdy fringe hobby for financial gain. It's only logical that the expression of the participants would morph from natural to shiny, after all shiny is beautiful and beauty sells.
Along with this comes conformity born of supply chain streamlining and eventually depletion of supply.
While I'm ranting I'd like to point out that sigs ruin searches. Any time I search for one the terms in your sig(or someone elses) I'll get back a whack of irrelevant hits to parse. All that noise obscures the signal.
So how is any of this relevent to "What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore? I guess it goes to which culture defines the terms. Some emerging trends include Aberrations like designer clownfish(move over grotesquely mutated Oranda) and with recombinant DNA processes maturing we're seeing patented designer organisms(glofish anyone?). If eventually none of the creatures in your tank are indigenous to coral reefs then can you still call it a reef tank just because some of their chromosome originated there? Well the culture that defines reefkeeping today exists primarily on the web and the web is after all a commercial construct unlike it's usenet predecessor. I say the retailers and websites determine what a reeftank is: Predominantly blue LEDs over a low iron cube with a cone skimmer and an mp10/20/40.
I hope I haven't strayed to far from the path with my cynical rants.
I'm preaching
It was actually the AOLers that initially caused this hence the pejorative use of the term
and why I describe our current situation as an global eternal September http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September. Commercially available internet access changed the nature of usenet use by changing the participants. The same sort of thing has happened with reefkeeping. Commercial interests have exploited a previously nerdy fringe hobby for financial gain. It's only logical that the expression of the participants would morph from natural to shiny, after all shiny is beautiful and beauty sells.
Along with this comes conformity born of supply chain streamlining and eventually depletion of supply. While I'm ranting I'd like to point out that sigs ruin searches. Any time I search for one the terms in your sig(or someone elses) I'll get back a whack of irrelevant hits to parse. All that noise obscures the signal.
So how is any of this relevent to "What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore? I guess it goes to which culture defines the terms. Some emerging trends include Aberrations like designer clownfish(move over grotesquely mutated Oranda) and with recombinant DNA processes maturing we're seeing patented designer organisms(glofish anyone?). If eventually none of the creatures in your tank are indigenous to coral reefs then can you still call it a reef tank just because some of their chromosome originated there? Well the culture that defines reefkeeping today exists primarily on the web and the web is after all a commercial construct unlike it's usenet predecessor. I say the retailers and websites determine what a reeftank is: Predominantly blue LEDs over a low iron cube with a cone skimmer and an mp10/20/40.
I hope I haven't strayed to far from the path with my cynical rants.
Paul B
Premium Member
To me a Hobbiests reef tank is what he or she wants it to look like.
I don't know what to call my tank, I have bottles, cans, chains, local New York animals and rocks so is it a reef? I don't know and I don't care to know because it is what I want it to be. It will never be TOTM and it should not be. To me it is not a contest or a test to see how much I can spend because I spend very little. Probably less than $200.00 a year. I also don't have wall to wall corals for the reason that I don't want them.
I know what a reef is supposed to look like as I have about 300 dives on them but they are all different. I have seen Oldsmobiles, airplanes and trains on reefs. Tool boxes, lawn tractors and patio tables.
That is the reason my tank has what some would call garbage. Even on the most remotest reefs in Tahiti you find man made materials and I find it interesting so I guess my reef is a garbage biotope.
Not to many people's liking but at least it is not like everyone elses tank and that is what I go for.:smokin:
I don't know what to call my tank, I have bottles, cans, chains, local New York animals and rocks so is it a reef? I don't know and I don't care to know because it is what I want it to be. It will never be TOTM and it should not be. To me it is not a contest or a test to see how much I can spend because I spend very little. Probably less than $200.00 a year. I also don't have wall to wall corals for the reason that I don't want them.
I know what a reef is supposed to look like as I have about 300 dives on them but they are all different. I have seen Oldsmobiles, airplanes and trains on reefs. Tool boxes, lawn tractors and patio tables.
That is the reason my tank has what some would call garbage. Even on the most remotest reefs in Tahiti you find man made materials and I find it interesting so I guess my reef is a garbage biotope.
Not to many people's liking but at least it is not like everyone elses tank and that is what I go for.:smokin:
doctorgori
New member
Indeed, and let no one incl myself "Define" what a hobbyist decides thier tank to be (cynical rants not withstanding)
but the theorem that commercial interest are driving some demand and hence altering what a hobbyist individual goals are is indeed real.... I'm not talking about linear improvements in lighting and water quality gadgets, I'm thinking there are secondary forces at workhere shaping equipment design and demand in a broader sense
^^^ thats the verbose explaination of this >>>
whipsaw
New member
you and I share the same goals it seems.
Having snorkeled and dived on a fair number of reefs I like my tanks to look like what I see in nature. My main structural decoration is concrete rip-rap. I have some live rock, a sand bed, and a pile of trash and shells and wood I've collected from various oceans over the years. I don't have any good chain or rebar yet, but I'll get some all sealed up in time. I'd stick a dead outboard motor in there if I could get one clean enough.
In time I'll probably buy a coral or two. I'm not going to get more than one or two though because most near-shore places like I'm trying to recreate don't have a ton of corals. I let my green hair algae grow in with the macro and coralline, it's pretty common most places I swim.
I actually like reefs in nature. I find it interesting how they're used accidentally or purposefully as garbage dumps, and how in time our garbage is overgrown and perhaps entombed in the reef. I realize it's not what most people want in their living room, but I'm perfectly happy with it. Nice to hear others are as well.
Big E
Premium Member
It's always been about the fish & corals for me since I started 20+ years ago...........never cared about the bugs & worms cause they weren't necessary for a successful tank.
My practices are the same for me, Berlin syle with a skimmer & water changes. It's always worked, so I"ve never been swayed by a lot of the short cuts. Technology obviously has made things easier.
The designer corals & overpriced clown morphs are nauseating to me, because it's the businsss part of the hobby taking advantage of people.
To me the hobby is about long lived fish & large colonies in a reef tank that were tiny frags................that's what impresses me. Vary few hobbyists get to this point because they are too caught up with getting the latest hot coral or trying the newest gimmik.
Patience doesn't exist...............everything has to be instant gratification.
I agree with others that the biotope or species tanks are what interests me most right now. It's not the popular way with the fast crowd that wants one of every hot fish & coral.
My practices are the same for me, Berlin syle with a skimmer & water changes. It's always worked, so I"ve never been swayed by a lot of the short cuts. Technology obviously has made things easier.
The designer corals & overpriced clown morphs are nauseating to me, because it's the businsss part of the hobby taking advantage of people.
To me the hobby is about long lived fish & large colonies in a reef tank that were tiny frags................that's what impresses me. Vary few hobbyists get to this point because they are too caught up with getting the latest hot coral or trying the newest gimmik.
Patience doesn't exist...............everything has to be instant gratification.
I agree with others that the biotope or species tanks are what interests me most right now. It's not the popular way with the fast crowd that wants one of every hot fish & coral.
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