When do you treat for ich?

[ThRoewer]

I think that the treatment of an ich outbreak should be the exception and something you shouldn't have to do in the first place - it shows you have done something wrong.

With the proper selection of fish (healthy and compatible) and adequate preventive measures (TTM & quarantine) ich shouldn't become a problem or even make it into your display tank in the first place.

 

[snorvich]

I think that the treatment of an ich outbreak should be the exception and something you shouldn't have to do in the first place - it shows you have done something wrong.

With the proper selection of fish (healthy and compatible) and adequate preventive measures (TTM & quarantine) ich shouldn't become a problem or even make it into your display tank in the first place.

Exactly. Over the years I have been working in this forum, one of the things I have noticed is the high frequency of velvet that is described as ich. Velvet kills quickly as does brook and uronema. Ich may eventually overwhelm fish but it does not happen quickly.

 

[Johnseye]

It is starting to sound like this was intended to cause "emotional responses". Many people ask questions or start polls around emotional issues with the intention of causing controversy or to validate what they do. That usually does not end well.

I will say to you what you said to me. Stop trying to infer the intent as you would be incorrect. I would not waste my time or others in order to generate an emotional response. I am not trying to cause controversy, nor validate what I do as I have not stated what I do.

Truth be told I am looking to understand when people begin to treat for ich when introducing new fish. Just as my question states. I would like to ask again that you do not derail this topic. The fact that you have posted several times, but not voted, makes me question why you are even posting unless your intent is to generate an emotional response. But that would be an inference and I wouldn't want to be wrong a third time.

It might in fact be best if no one replies, but only votes. That way there is no possibility for opinions to be voiced.

 

[ThRoewer]

There is a difference in treatment and prevention.

Treatment requires an outbreak or at least confirmation that a fish is infected with ich.
I would start treatment only if fish are really sick and the infection is escalating. If it's just a little flare up that the fish get under control by themselves (which to my experience is often the case - at least with the fish I tend to have) I leave them alone.
If I have to treat, my treatment of choice is hyposalinity, now in combination with TTM to speed things up.

Prevention is done even without any indication a fish is infected - it is done to ensure a fish does not harbor any ich stages before being introduced to a known clean population. The only sure way for this is TTM.
I combine it with hyposalinity to reduce stress and to add another layer of safety. And while on it I also do formalin baths to clean the fish of eventual Brooklynella, Uronema, Trichodina or Amyloodinium infections.

Now, treatment and prevention may use the same measures but are inherently not the same.
So you may want to specify your question.

 

[Johnseye]

There is a difference in treatment and prevention.

So you may want to specify your question.

You can treat a fish without knowing it has ich which would be a prevention measure. It is still a treatment. TTM is still a treatment.

Definition of "Treat" - To subject to a process, action, or change, especially to a chemical or physical process or application.

Definition of "Prevent" - To stop (something) from happening or existing.

Again, we are getting into semantics which is unnecessary for this poll.

 

[Deinonych]

I think that the treatment of an ich outbreak should be the exception and something you shouldn't have to do in the first place - it shows you have done something wrong.

With the proper selection of fish (healthy and compatible) and adequate preventive measures (TTM & quarantine) ich shouldn't become a problem or even make it into your display tank in the first place.

+1

The challenge is convincing people to QT in the first place.

 

[Spar]

This poll is not about WHETHER or not to QT or treat or eliminate. It is asking WHEN people begin to treat for ich.

right, but my response was prior to the poll being added.

with TTM, technically the treatment starts immediately. with copper, i'd wait until they start eating.

 

[snorvich]

I will say to you what you said to me. Stop trying to infer the intent as you would be incorrect. I would not waste my time or others in order to generate an emotional response. I am not trying to cause controversy, nor validate what I do as I have not stated what I do.

One of the aspects of the job description of Team RC is to help folks in areas where we have expertise; however we also try to keep things orderly and not have ad hominem or other "disagreements".

 

[Dmorty217]

If you really want to learn something why don't you read a few books on the subject?? Your trying to argue with Steve about this for some reason and I can assure you of one thing and thats he is much smarter and versed in this than you will ever be so you should just listen to his advice instead of trying to tear it apart and validate whatever it is your trying to prove.

 

[Johnseye]

If you really want to learn something why don't you read a few books on the subject?? Your trying to argue with Steve about this for some reason and I can assure you of one thing and thats he is much smarter and versed in this than you will ever be so you should just listen to his advice instead of trying to tear it apart and validate whatever it is your trying to prove.

Thanks for your input.

 

[gone fishin]

+1

The challenge is convincing people to QT in the first place.

and this is what separates most long term aquarist from a craigs list posting.

I suppose to answer the OP's question my fish go directly into TT. I assume the fish have ich.

 

[Johnseye]

The voting has stopped for a couple days. Looking at the results there were 14 votes total. 8 people treat after the new fish start eating, 2 after a predetermined period of time, 2 when the fish show symptoms and 2 never treat.

The reason for me starting the poll was that I wanted to know what others were doing without getting into a long discussion, which as we saw with some responses to the poll there is a tendency to get emotional. There are already plenty of other threads discussing what people's "opinions" are of what should or shouldn't be be done. I wanted for people to be able to say what they were doing in anonymity, to avoid these emotional charges and subjective responses. Which is why I chose to use an anonymous poll.

I'm no stranger to keeping fish. I've been doing it for 40+ years. I am new to reefing and keeping coral/inverts. Treating sick fish is different with livestock that can be harmed by certain methods. I have also come across more symptomatic fish in the marine vs freshwater varieties. Maybe I've been unlucky with the fish I've received but either way it's my experience.

Because of this I wanted to know what to do when putting new fish in QT. My method to date had been to wait until I saw symptoms. My logic was that there is always a chance the fish would not be carrying anything and I didn't want to subject the fish to treatment unnecessarily. Perhaps this logic was faulty. What I've been finding is that after about 2-3 weeks a symptom will appear, then I begin treating based on the symptom. What I'm leaning towards doing now is beginning treatment after a couple days, which is usually when the fish start eating well and not just nibbling.

Considering some people's actual comments about using the TTM I'm surprised there were no votes for "As soon as you put the new fish in QT" which is what that method would be doing. Unless of course people don't begin the TTM until after the fish start eating.

I'm also surprise there were 2 "never" votes. Either those people have never experienced ich, let the fish fight it off on their own, or they just let their fish die when they get it. Hope not.

I apologize to anyone if my responses to their posts sounded rude. I was merely trying to keep the responses focused on the actual question. I didn't want to lead anyone into making a decision one way or the other. I spelled that all out in my first post. Even so I had people probing my intent, wanting to talk about problems other than ich, talking about whether to QT or not. None of which I wanted to discuss or had anything to do with my poll or first post.

I appreciate everyone's input. The poll will remain open so others can provide input anytime.

 

[Deinonych]

I have also come across more symptomatic fish in the marine vs freshwater varieties. Maybe I've been unlucky with the fish I've received but either way it's my experience.

I suspect this is because most freshwater fish are aquacultured these days, whereas most marine fish are collected from the wild. It is for this reason that I always assume a new acquisition has Cryptocaryon (ich) and prophylactically treat with TTM. Same goes for flukes and Prazipro.

 

[Spar]

With TTM the treatment technically starts at the first transfer rather than right when added. That's why i didnt select 'right away'. If something didnt look right with the fish id likely not do a 100% water change until things got better.

 

[Johnseye]

I started this thread a while back when after a few fish in my QT developed ich again. I was looking for input so that I may go about fish introduction.

For my latest fish introduction I opted not to treat unless I saw signs. I have a Centropyge multicolor, Centropyge loricula and Pterapogon kauderni in my QT now. It's been 3 weeks and no sign of any parasite or other problems. I did not TTM, or use copper, nor have I used Prazipro.

My thought is to wait another week and if I see nothing, introduce them into the DT. Question is, should I treat with Prazi without seeing a need or let it ride?

 

[Spar]

i personally always use prazi regardless. fish tolerate it so well that there really aren't any side effects, yet the consequences of guessing wrong are pretty bad.

 

[Johnseye]

i personally always use prazi regardless. fish tolerate it so well that there really aren't any side effects, yet the consequences of guessing wrong are pretty bad.

I've had a different experience with prazi. Perhaps it's been in times when the fish had been treated for ich and they were already stressed, then the prazi took them over the edge. This was actually my last experience and I lost a Centropyge loricula because of it a day before I was going to put him in the DT. That was a couple weeks after the ich treatment and over a month in QT. I did have another angel make it through so it's hard to tell.

If the fish haven't shown any symptoms requiring prazi, can they still carry flukes or worms?

 

[Deinonych]

4 weeks of observation-only QT is not long enough. You need at least 8-10 weeks if you aren't going to medicate, and even then you might miss some subtle signs of parasites.

 

[Johnseye]

4 weeks of observation-only QT is not long enough. You need at least 8-10 weeks if you aren't going to medicate, and even then you might miss some subtle signs of parasites.

Really? 8-10? Everything I've read has said 4 weeks is sufficient. So much conflicting information regarding QT.

 

[ca1ore]

Not sure how to answer the poll because the options are not all mutually exclusive. For example, I QT all new fish in NGP for 2 weeks to give them a chance to get acclimated and eating, and then prophylactically treat with CP; unless, the fish shows symptoms, then I treat with CP immediately.