When you buy fish -- a discussion

[snorvich]

When you buy fish, there are various types of vendor. If a vendor offers no guarantee but has very inexpensive fish, are you more likely to buy than if a vendor offers a 14 day money back guarantee but is more expensive? Is a 14 day guarantee with exclusions equivalent to a 14 day guarantee with NO exclusions? If so, does it justify additional pricing? Is a 14 day guarantee for a credit equal to a 14 day guarantee with money refunded? Is free shipping (with costs probably embedded in the pricing) worth paying more? Would you rather shop at a vendor that brings in rare fish at a commensurate price or only common fish?

I bring up these points as I see them embedded in a variety of posts.

:fish1:

 

[Kahuna Tuna]

Great topic. I will buy from a pricier vendor everytime to get quality fish, I have been getting most of my livestock from Dr F & S and their divers den and their quality and customer service is outstanding. I like the fact they say where the specemin hails from and I will absolutely pay more for a fish that is going to last, and has been properly handled. Their guarantee is also a factor for me, nobody who sells inferior livestock would sustain a guarantee like that long term.

I would rather shop at a walk in facility and pick the fish myself but I often use online vendors that I trust since a lot of the shops in my area don't have quality fish.

 

[kawicivic]

guarantees do nothing for me as I am one of those people that hate dealing with them. With that being said I am not 100% price driven either. Online I tend to be more price driven as I cannot see the fish, but in person I weigh the facility and whether or not I think the fish is healthy for its price. Money back is always better than credit and shipping costs always need to be considered whether embedded or not. Embedded costs look better if they are still comparable as I hate buying a fish for 30 dollars and paying the same or more for shipping. I like looking at rare fish, however if I am not going to buy them, it does not sway my purchasing decision.

 

[Dtronic]

One of my LFS knew I wanted a pair of Rhomboidalis and they got them in, called me and I went in the next day. The male wasn't the healthiest looking so they wouldn't sell them to me, even though I wanted them too.

He died the next day and they took the loss. While I commend them for not selling sick, now they won't order me another pair. They also have no guarantee.

I would not buy without a unconditional 14 day guarantee online. Credit is not as good as money back.

 

[argi]

When you buy fish, there are various types of vendor. If a vendor offers no guarantee but has very inexpensive fish, are you more likely to buy than if a vendor offers a 14 day money back guarantee but is more expensive?

I guess it will depend on the cost difference. If you are talking a couple of dollars, then yes I will buy from the one with the guarantee, but if you are talking half the cost (paying 20 for a fish instead of say 35-40), then I will go with the cheaper 9 times out of 10. The guarantee does help, but if that price is made up for in the cost of the fish (i.e. twice the cost) then I will probably risk with the cheaper fish.

Is a 14 day guarantee with exclusions equivalent to a 14 day guarantee with NO exclusions? If so, does it justify additional pricing?

Again IMO it will depend on the price difference. A couple of dollars I will probably go with the no exclusions, tens of dollars I would probably go with the cheaper.

Is a 14 day guarantee for a credit equal to a 14 day guarantee with money refunded?

No...especially if you aren't planning on ordering from them any time soon. A credit would have to be used to buy more livestock and having to pay shipping again which isn't a big deal if you are planning on buying more. But if you are done stocking your tank that credit won't do you any good. A refund would be better.

Is free shipping (with costs probably embedded in the pricing) worth paying more?

I guess it does at least for me, but it also depends on where that free shipping starts. I just took advantage of Blue Zoo's free shipping over $99. My order was for $103. I was holding off buying when the free shipping was at $140, but when I saw that I ordered almost right away.

Would you rather shop at a vendor that brings in rare fish at a commensurate price or only common fish?

I want the best of both worlds so I want the vendor to have both, LOL. I tend to be a "cheap reefer". I don't own any LE corals or "rare" fish/corals. I like lots of the common stuff, but I would also like to see the rare stuff come in to see what I am missing by being a cheap reefer.

Having said that, I personally don't associate cheap prices with unhealthy fish but do understand they sometimes can go hand in hand. I try to see what others have said about the quality of livestock from a vendor along with the customer service they offer. I am willing to pay more for quality and customer service to a certain point, otherwise I will just pass if the cost is too high. I am also willing to pay more for captive breed over wild caught and would prefer to shop where captive breed fish are available.

Keith

 

[snorvich]

One of my LFS knew I wanted a pair of Rhomboidalis and they got them in, called me and I went in the next day. The male wasn't the healthiest looking so they wouldn't sell them to me, even though I wanted them too.

He died the next day and they took the loss. While I commend them for not selling sick, now they won't order me another pair. They also have no guarantee.

I would not buy without a unconditional 14 day guarantee online. Credit is not as good as money back.

So this particular LFS learned the hard way that pricey fish, especially those with limited market, are probably not in their best interest. So they have no incentive in the future to bring in specialty fish.

I also agree that credit is NOT as good as a refund for a guarantee, especially for me, who buys fish rarely; I would have little desire for a credit which I might never be able to use. So then the question also becomes, what happens to the fish bought with this credit? Are they still subject to the guarantee? Or is that not valid on the replacement fish?

 

[snorvich]

But Kahuna Tuna reminds me of one of my problems. I cannot find an LFS that has an unconditional guarantee and there is no LFS in my area that will bring in special/pricier fish. And there are certainly none who will guaranty them for any number of days let alone 14 days. Sure I see lots of firefish, but rarely if ever, Helfrichi firefish. And certainly there are tangs available such as the yellow tangs, but virtually never Chevron tangs. I do see clown tangs, but we all know their story.

 

[argi]

I also agree that credit is NOT as good as a refund for a guarantee, especially for me, who buys fish rarely; I would have little desire for a credit which I might never be able to use. So then the question also becomes, what happens to the fish bought with this credit? Are they still subject to the guarantee? Or is that not valid on the replacement fish?

IMO "replacement" fish should be guranteed, but many places do not which is understandable. Replace a fish once and they have probably broken even or made a slight profit, replace it twice and they are now losing money on the sale (but are keeping the customer happy which may then lead to more sales from them).

But Kahuna Tuna reminds me of one of my problems. I cannot find an LFS that has an unconditional guarantee and there is no LFS in my area that will bring in special/pricier fish. And there are certainly none who will guaranty them for any number of days let alone 14 days. Sure I see lots of firefish, but rarely if ever, Helfrichi firefish. And certainly there are tangs available such as the yellow tangs, but virtually never Chevron tangs. I do see clown tangs, but we all know their story.

Most LFS's know their market fairly well and will only bring in fish that will sell. Sitting on an expensive fish with the risk of a) it dying or b) having to drop the price to where they don't make money can be hard to do plus it will be taking up space that the common fish would go in that could have been sold 1, 2, 3 times over. It certainly is a hard balancing act for any LFS to have to deal with.

Keith

 

[flameangel88]

Few years ago I started out with inexpensive fish so it didn't matter much where I got them from but as the shift toward deepwater and sensitive fish it make a big den in my wallet as to which vendor.

Few cases from the past 12 months:
Dec 2008 I got a Griffis at a great price (no guarantee whatsoever) but the headache and heartache of watching it die within 3 weeks was difficult to deal with.
Summer 2009 got a BL under $200 (no guarantee) died in QT vs a $400 BL from DD still alive. It cost another $330 to replace the dead one I ended up spending more than if I got another from DD.

If it's a readily available fish free shipping will entice me to go with that vendor but sensitive fish such as Bandit, Venustus, Colin's, Multibarred, and Golden angels I will rather pay the premium and go with a reputable vendor.

Store credit is okay with vendors I buy frequently. I still have $100 credit with a sponsor here that was issued a year ago that I haven't used. That was my first purchase with them and they make it like it was my fault the fish was dead and just wasn't worth the aggravation to deal with them again. I rather cut my loss then to pay another $45 shipping charge.

 

[agreeive?fish]

its 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of another when it comes to buyingn common stock fish online/lfs with or without the 14 day i have had ggod results and bad results both ways

when it comes to the more expensive and harder to keep fish i would say i would pay a higher price for the extra 14 days of "security"

credit vs refund.. store credit is fine with me if its a vendor i use regulary especially if they also sell the foods and other dry goods i regularly order as long as there is no min order amount to use the credit

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I have a rather somewhat connected issue/concern with this too. First and foremost, I will say that I will ALWAYS pay the premium for a conditioned animal, when possible. To do otherwise is foolhardy. There is only a return on investment (whether it be personal enjoyment, fecundity, or resale) if the animl survives. If you can get 3 gem tangs from "shady joe" for the price of 1 from DD, how much money did you save if after 1 month you have 1 from DD and 0 from shady joe, due to death? Im not saying all fish from cheap places will die, Im saying it is FAR more likely.

But to my concern- is an unconditional guranatee alwasy a good think- in an ethical view? Whats to stop that noob from buying that one of a kind hybrid, putting it in their goldfish bowl with their betta, killing it, and getting their money back, no questions asked? The customer MUST bear some burden of responsibility. Otherwise they will never learn, and animals lives will be the only casualty.

 

[snorvich]

I have a rather somewhat connected issue/concern with this too. First and foremost, I will say that I will ALWAYS pay the premium for a conditioned animal, when possible. To do otherwise is foolhardy. There is only a return on investment (whether it be personal enjoyment, fecundity, or resale) if the animl survives. If you can get 3 gem tangs from "shady joe" for the price of 1 from DD, how much money did you save if after 1 month you have 1 from DD and 0 from shady joe, due to death? Im not saying all fish from cheap places will die, Im saying it is FAR more likely.

I personally agree, for a variety of reasons, but not everyone shares this philosophy

But to my concern- is an unconditional guranatee alwasy a good think- in an ethical view? Whats to stop that noob from buying that one of a kind hybrid, putting it in their goldfish bowl with their betta, killing it, and getting their money back, no questions asked? The customer MUST bear some burden of responsibility. Otherwise they will never learn, and animals lives will be the only casualty.

This is a very valid point, but I have no concept of how to implement. I assume the noob will shop around for the cheapest animal and will not choose to pay the premium for conditioned and guaranteed animals.

 

[snorvich]

credit vs refund.. store credit is fine with me if its a vendor i use regulary especially if they also sell the foods and other dry goods i regularly order as long as there is no min order amount to use the credit

Personally, I prefer the option of a refund OR store credit. When I buy from DD, I always would opt for credit since I know I will use it on something. For ANY other vendor, I would prefer a refund, but I don't think many will give one. Their giving a store credit means they will likely break even on the second animal. But what happens if the second animal also does not make it?

 

[Kieth71]

I have several stores i can buy from locally.The problem is they can either not get sensative or rarer fish(or dont want to try to hard) or if they will get it they want me to pick it up in the bag and not have to even aclimate it let alone make sure its eating.To me this is a case where i am better off buying off the internet from a vendor like DD.I honestly wish there was a fish store that you could order a fish they would qt and get it eating and then i pick it up.Their is one store that does qt but thats only for fish they order not special orders.If i had my dream store it would be run the way DD runs their outfit although i am not sure how tough that would be in a limited market.The guarantee is nice but it would be alot better if it did cover shipping as that is part of the cost of the fish to me.I have actually not ordered from another vendor on the forums because almost all items i would order have a restriction on the guarantee.

 

[Ralph ATL]

I agree with Jeremy in that generally speaking, you "get what you pay for". I would rather pay higher prices on something that I trust is being taking great care for, and that as a company they know if it dies, they will have to reimburse the customer. This puts an added incentive to make sure the livestock goes out as healthy as possible.

Of course, there will be idiots that buy & handle fish carelessly that cause deaths, and as in any business, that's the "cost of doing business".

My picks:
1. DD
2. Live aquaria
3. Blue zoo (only bought 1 fish)

 

[jmaneyapanda]

This is a very valid point, but I have no concept of how to implement. I assume the noob will shop around for the cheapest animal and will not choose to pay the premium for conditioned and guaranteed animals.

I would agree, but that 14 day unconditional guarantee screams "Have your cake and eat it too!"

My noob comment was a bit extreme, but a more realistic and likely effect is- when a fish becomes available, and a "no question asked" guarantee is broadcast far and wide, will the average aquarist stop to think "Am I capable of caring for this fish? Is my tank and water appropriate?" I hope so, but I fear not. I think it may foster a feeling of "I'll give it a shot. Ive got nothing to lose. If it dies, I'll get my money back". That concerns me.

 

[tcmfish]

I agree with Jeremy.

One thing I don't understand, and both the LFS I have worked at were run this way, is if a store brings in something nice why do they make it so expensive? Yeah they paid a lot for it, but is it that much harder to take care of? If they want to move it price it cheaper!

 

[joejoe1055]

i agree if i was a lfs i would make my money on the cheap stuff and slide by on the other
cheap fish cost $7 sell $18, over double the cost= profit
rare cost $50 sell $70

 

[jerryz]

In my case I go with the expensive fish with no guaranty. Here there are cheap places that drop fish out of bag while they're still doped up and one place that has a a full quarantine system. They make sure that wild caught fish get the anti-biotics they need. The whole nine yards. Now their fish are more expensive and come with no guaranties. But everyone in the city knows if you want an expensive fish get it fro these guys as the quality will be high and the risk minimized. At least in this case you get what you pay for and it doesn't involve a guaranty.

 

[Big E]

I have a rather somewhat connected issue/concern with this too. First and foremost, I will say that I will ALWAYS pay the premium for a conditioned animal, when possible. To do otherwise is foolhardy. There is only a return on investment (whether it be personal enjoyment, fecundity, or resale) if the animl survives. If you can get 3 gem tangs from "shady joe" for the price of 1 from DD, how much money did you save if after 1 month you have 1 from DD and 0 from shady joe, due to death? Im not saying all fish from cheap places will die, Im saying it is FAR more likely.

When it comes to delicate species I agree, but I see no reason to pay a premium for a hardy fish species. I'm experienced enough to deal with those type of fish on my own. For example I'd pay a premium for a Regal Angel but not a Passer.

With expensive fish I'm more likely willing to pay a premium because of the investment risk on my part.