Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

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Megalodon,

Nice post. I was gonna quote it, but for the sake of saving a few electrons, I decided not to.

As for the ethics of wild caught and the environmental impact, my perspective is that we have a greater responsibility to these animals if not for anything than those facts. Warming, pollution issues - all that - are making these "expensive sticks" harder and harder to come by, and I see a day - probably within 20 years - that we won't be able to buy anything that was wild caught.

I often chuckle at my daughter (8 years old), in that she says "oh, that (insert type of animal here) is SOO cute; how could anyone hurt them?!". Then she says pass the Turkey... Or the bacon (I note often that pigs are very intelligent). I'm not gonna start oiling up the portobela burgers just yet, but the way livestock is treated before slaughter is definitely a concern for me. There's not a lot I can DO about it (sans boycotting any animal product, which AIN'T gonna happen!), however I at least want to keep it in mind when going about my daily life.

I'm a firm believer in euthanasia (for animals as well as humans). I even own some of that stuff that knocks out the fish for you (euthanese?). I recently put a cat down that was about 20 years old; even though he was alert, I could tell that he was in pain. I could also see his dignity slide as the years grew on. Putting him down was very painful for me - I miss him terribly - but it wasn't about me; it was about him.

One thing that I'll mention is that although we are "the most intelligent animal" (IMO the jury is still out on that), one thing that continually surprises AND disappoints me is the depths of cruelty we humans can reach. Not only towards animals, but towards each other.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12475336#post12475336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
you are rather short minded if can say so. i was never comparing animals to humans. show how little you can process to begin with.

lets put it in terms of peoples rights. say that there is somebody trying to help a group of people. lets say group A and group B are both lacking in rights. they live in the same country. sh!t lets get as specific as the same city. if equal rights activist R protests only for group A but continues to put down group B then that person should stop trying to help group A if they continue to put down group B. why? well lets look at it a bit closer. this activist R is supposed to be for human rights but mistreats group B so then we are left with a contradiction. how then can R fight for one side and hate the other just stop it.

are you now understanding what i'm saying? and plus lets look at the phras "Animal Cruelty" it refers to all animals not just the retty ones, not just the smart ones, not just the mammals it refers to ALL animals and yes that includes insects even though we hate them.

so the message for today is "if you are trying to protest dolphins dying in fish nets then don't eat tuna." don't be on both sides of the arguement at once. or is it that you people don't see that all animals are entitled to equal treatment. so this arguement of animal cruelty is rather a person to person issue. where one might think that harvesting honey from bee's is cruel while another might think not and then you are arguing because there are no truely set standards of "animal treatment. can any of you process beyond your own view point to try and understand what others are saying?

oh just to let you know kid i know my grammer is bad so shove off.
What does short minded mean? Anyway, the problem I have with your aggressive attitude is that there isn't any supporter of animal 'A' in this thread that also put down animal 'B'. You simply came out of nowhere and told everyone to shut up. Regardless, you seem to see the world in black and white instead of shades of gray, and that makes it difficult to communicate.
 
WOW....some very good points here (and some not so good...) I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know that for myself, my horse was my best friend growing up, my rabbits were in my room when it was cold outside, our turkeys all had names, our 'family pig' had the cosiest stall in the barn when she had her piglets and my fish are getting a brand new 240g tank because the are out growing their current digs....
I believe every living thing should be entitled to a great life, no matter their purpose or how short or long it's on this Earth....

Don’t bash me for my opinion…remember, everyone should be entitled to one.
 
Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12386458#post12386458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ClownReef®
I was doing some browsing and cant help but notice

So, where is the animal cruelty line reached?

Thanks!

Maybe you should start by analyzing your self, your tangs call for a minimum of 70gal tank, you have two in a 58, what’s up with that :confused: ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12475336#post12475336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
you are rather short minded if can say so. i was never comparing animals to humans. show how little you can process to begin with.

lets put it in terms of peoples rights. say that there is somebody trying to help a group of people. lets say group A and group B are both lacking in rights. they live in the same country. sh!t lets get as specific as the same city. if equal rights activist R protests only for group A but continues to put down group B then that person should stop trying to help group A if they continue to put down group B. why? well lets look at it a bit closer. this activist R is supposed to be for human rights but mistreats group B so then we are left with a contradiction. how then can R fight for one side and hate the other just stop it.

are you now understanding what i'm saying? and plus lets look at the phras "Animal Cruelty" it refers to all animals not just the retty ones, not just the smart ones, not just the mammals it refers to ALL animals and yes that includes insects even though we hate them.

so the message for today is "if you are trying to protest dolphins dying in fish nets then don't eat tuna." don't be on both sides of the arguement at once. or is it that you people don't see that all animals are entitled to equal treatment. so this arguement of animal cruelty is rather a person to person issue. where one might think that harvesting honey from bee's is cruel while another might think not and then you are arguing because there are no truely set standards of "animal treatment. can any of you process beyond your own view point to try and understand what others are saying?

oh just to let you know kid i know my grammer is bad so shove off.


They have a college for people like you...
 
Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12484733#post12484733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by olemos
Maybe you should start by analyzing your self, your tangs call for a minimum of 70gal tank, you have two in a 58, what’s up with that :confused: ;)
Oh snap!
 
[flamealert]


When I requested iron coral to step away, it does no good for everyone to continue fueling the flames. Let's move on from here so this thread doesn't have to be closed.
 
Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

Hey guys,

Sorry i haven't replied since i posted this. I was busy apologizing to the world and trying to explain that not all of us college people behave like IRON CORAL. It would be a shame being in college and not having close to perfect "grammer".. I'd probably shoot myself in embarrassment.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12484733#post12484733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by olemos
Maybe you should start by analyzing your self, your tangs call for a minimum of 70gal tank, you have two in a 58, what’s up with that :confused: ;)

Hmmm.. two tangs.. inch/ inch and a half...TOPS! (They really don't thrive in big tanks where they have to compete with bigger fish.. I suggest you do some research about it). Well fed...immaculate parameters.. Nori at their disposal 24/7.. fed twice a day.. It does sound like torture to me.. Thanks to your comment OLEMOS i realized GITO sounds like paradise compared to the cruel cruel life i was giving these fish

.. Care to explain how those rather small tangs fall into the "animal cruelty" bin?? Id LOVE to hear it.. (I promise not to laugh)..
 
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Re: Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

Re: Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12523626#post12523626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ClownReef®
Hmmm.. two tangs.. inch/ inch and a half...TOPS! (They really don't thrive in big tanks where they have to compete with bigger fish.. I suggest you do some research about it). Well fed...immaculate parameters.. Nori at their disposal 24/7.. fed twice a day.. It does sound like torture to me.. Thanks to your comment OLEMOS i realized GITO sounds like paradise compared to the cruel cruel life i was giving these fish

.. Care to explain how those rather small tangs fall into the "animal cruelty" bin?? Id LOVE to hear it.. (I promise not to laugh)..
Um, you know they grow bigger than that, right?
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12523802#post12523802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Megalodon
Um, you know they grow bigger than that, right?

Yeah, but in all fairness, since they're still small is it really an issue?

I have a Blond Naso that I know is gonna get huge, but he's totally fine in my 210 for now.

There's a shark (Nurse? Forgot which species) in a 6 foot tub at one of my LFS. The shark has to be at LEAST 4 feet long. It's been in there so long it's spine is curved. I mean, CURVED. I refuse to go in there in part because he refuses to find him a decent home. I've been told many people have called the cops on him but since there aren't any laws that cover that, there the shark stays, just swimming in the same circle day in, day out, year after year.

THAT, to me, is cruel... Having a couple of teeny tangs in a small tank doesn't come close to that line IMO...

I mean, come on. If we're gonna have a conversation, let's be realistic, eh?
 
OF COURSE I KNOW THEY GET BIGGER!

I'm a VERY responsible fish keeper. I always look for my fish's health and well being first. I always try to accommodate them as best as i can. I try to provide them with the best equipment and best food i can get... like CAPTAIN QUIRK said...keep it realistic. Its not like i'm jamming 3 dolphins in a betta bowl.
 
From a philosophical point, I think it's kinda messed up how people only love the pretty/cute/cuddly animals, yet smash anything ugly.

That being said, I spend about the same amount of money trying to keep my fish and corals alive at home as I spend trying to catch and eat the fish in the lake... Not saying that it's bad to kill some stuff and defend others, but I do think that we're all pretty hypocritical when it comes to animal rights.
 
My main argument is the conditions SOME people keep their tanks for their fish to live in. I wish i could post pictures..LOL
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12524088#post12524088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Captain Quirk
Yeah, but in all fairness, since they're still small is it really an issue?
It is. They'll spend a majority of their lives in a tank that's too small. I'd consider that cruel. Not as cruel as keeping dolpins in a betta bowl, but cruel.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12524238#post12524238 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hamdogg08
That being said, I spend about the same amount of money trying to keep my fish and corals alive at home as I spend trying to catch and eat the fish in the lake... Not saying that it's bad to kill some stuff and defend others, but I do think that we're all pretty hypocritical when it comes to animal rights.
Do you needlessy torture the fish you're about to eat? If not, then no, it's not the same. Also, are these fish you eat just as rare as some of the fish we keep in our tanks? If not, then still no, it's not the same. What about the pollution and environmental damage required to get these fish to our doorstep as opposed to the fish you catch yourself, is it about the same? No, it's probably not. Do you need to keep fish in your tank in order to feed yourself. No, I'd like to think not. The fish you catch is for food, which is justifiable as long as you do it humanely and it's sustainable.

Apples and oranges.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12524485#post12524485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ClownReef®
Finding fish a more suitable home when they outgrow a tank is a given. Not doing so, definitely cruel.

A given for you and I, perhaps, but some people won't ever bother to find a more suitable home for their animals...

A few weeks ago I drove a damsel (yes, I said DAMSEL!) all the way to Las Vegas so he could find a better home. One of the public aquariums there took him and dropped him in a MUCH larger tank than the "penitentiary" tank I had him in (he became too aggressive so I isolated him from the other tank until I could find him another home).

I think I understand why you (Megalodon) said that most fish will spend most of their lives in tanks that are too small. I pretty much agree (unfortunately - that so many animals live in inappropriate conditions). However, just because so many others don't bother to find better homes when the fish outgrow their current tanks doesn't mean EVERYONE won't. I'm pretty sure those participating in this thread WILL make the effort to find a more appropriate home when the need arises. A blanket approach to dropping a fish into the size tank they might need as full grown adults isn't quite necessary IMO.
 
Pic from your tank

DSC03546.jpg


Sorry my bad .
Can you tell me were you got those 3/4" power heads in back?
I say 3/4 because they look smaller then the fish:D
 
Do you happen to have pics of my prom? Cant seem to find them.. maybe they are in the old picture box where you found that one..

Those fish were given BIGGER homes due to their size (i paid $120 for both fish.. i gave them away for FREE!.. Im not hungry enough to charge to give these fish a better home..). They look soooo tortured and scared.. skinny and slowly fading.. Oh the horror!

As you all can see from the picture that OLEMOS posted, my tank is a mix between Auschwitz and GITMO..

Please save them OLEMOS..PLEAAAAAAAAASE! Be the hero of the movie..
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12525986#post12525986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ClownReef®
Do you happen to have pics of my prom? Cant seem to find them.. maybe they are in the old picture box where you found that one..

Those fish were given BIGGER homes due to their size (i paid $120 for both fish.. i gave them away for FREE!.. Im not hungry enough to charge to give these fish a better home..). They look soooo tortured and scared.. skinny and slowly fading.. Oh the horror!

As you all can see from the picture that OLEMOS posted, my tank is a mix between Auschwitz and GITMO..

Please save them OLEMOS..PLEAAAAAAAAASE! Be the hero of the movie..

Ask Bean, he knows everything!
 
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