Which Anemone Should I Get?

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859150#post12859150 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Do your own research for a change.

But you're right, I've never kept one so obviously nothing that I've read about them could possibly be right. Everyone should just buy whatever they want. I've got a 5 gallon bucket out in the garage, I think I'll just fill it up with saltwater, throw a few Magnifica's in there, maybe a vlamingii or two. I've got a spare desk lamp somewhere, I'm sure that would be fine.

I have done the research. But there are no scientific papers that discuss host anemone care. Most of the documents are hobby papers that are questionable in there method.

I said nothing about a bucket...lol. I did however say that his system can support BTAs, and I stick with that claim.

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859201#post12859201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by E.J. Coral
I did however say that his system can support BTAs, and I stick with that claim.

"Can" and "should" are two very different things.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859194#post12859194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
35 seconds in google turns up this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/blueplanet/factfiles/jellies/sea_anemone_bg.shtml

"Like other Cnidarians, they do not age, meaning they have the potential to live indefinitely."

Documentation of an anemone that lived in captivity for 75 years before it was killed due to its tank being drained, as well as plenty of other information is readily available for those willing to take the time to look rather than blindly accuse another person of making things up.

Firstly, the reference that you provided is not scientific. The authors themselves call the claim anecdotal.... read carefully. Secondly, there is not one reference to any peer-reviewed articles.... Where I come from, making claims based on documents like that is useless.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859194#post12859194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
35 seconds in google turns up this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/blueplanet/factfiles/jellies/sea_anemone_bg.shtml

"Like other Cnidarians, they do not age, meaning they have the potential to live indefinitely."

Documentation of an anemone that lived in captivity for 75 years before it was killed due to its tank being drained, as well as plenty of other information is readily available for those willing to take the time to look rather than blindly accuse another person of making things up.

I never accused you of making it up. I accused you of taking anecdotal evidence and proclaiming it as fact.

 

[Slakker]

Yeah, you're right...Los Angeles is known for presenting accurate information at all times, no matter what.

That was the first thing I came upon in google. Had I taken more time, I could probably find you several more credible references discussing the fact that Cnidarian's don't age. The textbook from my Invert Zoology course comes to mind, but alas, I go to a university with rental books, so I don't have it on hand.

 

[davocean]

I too have read they can live 50-100yrs, or maybe even indefinitely.
I personally look at those pics and cringe at the site of tentacles going into overflow, but you have sustained them in a minmal atmosphere, I just wouldn't advocate that myself.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859245#post12859245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Yeah, you're right...Los Angeles is known for presenting accurate information at all times, no matter what.

That was the first thing I came upon in google. Had I taken more time, I could probably find you several more credible references discussing the fact that Cnidarian's don't age. The textbook from my Invert Zoology course comes to mind, but alas, I go to a university with rental books, so I don't have it on hand.

How does my location have anything to do with anything .... I mean come on. You are no fun to debate with....lol.

What text did you use in undergrad. One of my colleagues may have it on hand, and I can share the reference with everyone.... we can all be enlightened....everyone wins.

 

[Slakker]

Had the class two or three semesters ago...trying to dig up a syllabus.

 

[E.J. Coral]

oops

 

[Slakker]

Can't seem to find the syllabus, but the book was titled "Invertebrate Zoology," I believe it was published by the Oxford University Press. I don't recall that it had a primary author.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12859489#post12859489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Can't seem to find the syllabus, but the book was titled "Invertebrate Zoology," I believe it was published by the Oxford University Press. I don't recall that it had a primary author.

Yeah I did a quick search of the primary litt. via scifinder and "web of science" and didn't find any good data. When you find your reference, let me know, I would love to see this claim finally substantiated.

 

[Slakker]

Short of purchasing the text I'm left with little more than google search results. I did find this journal article that can be purchased, which I don't plan to do, but the abstract includes the following:

Aging (senescence) is apparent in animals that possess long-lived postmitotic cells but is negligible in primitive species, such as hydras and other Cnidarians, all of whose cells are constantly renewed by cell division. This repetitive mitotic activity precludes the progressive intracellular accumulation of damaged biomolecules and organelles, which are obvious concomitants of aging in neurons and other long-lived cells of higher animals.

It can be found here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8667k567686h96q/

Pretty much on par with what I remember. The primitive nature of cnidarian systems is such that there is very little damage to cells during the division process. It is this type of cell damage that causes aging in higher organisms.
While, of course, we have not observed first hand these animals living for hundreds of years, we can certainly hypothesize that it would be the case, and I'm sure there are viable ways to test such a hypothesis.

It seems to be a fairly commonly accepted theory in the scientific community that cnidarians in general have very little in their makeup that would be cause for a definite lifespan. As with just about everything else in science, it's a theory, but so is gravity.

Edit:
Here's another sad fact for you, can be found in Joyce Wilkerson's book: 95% of aquarists with 2-5 years of experience can't keep an anemone alive longer than 2 years. 1 in 32 anemones doesn't live past 5 in the captive system.

For a creature that doesn't age, those numbers are depressing.

 

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Now, kids....

Taken from the Rosenstiel School of Marine & Atmospheric Science Library website:

"Sea anemones have often been reported to have long life spans, but most of these reports have been undocumented or from older literature. In The World of the Sea, translated and enlarged by H.M. Hart (Cassell, Petter and Galpin, London, 1873), it was reported that Dalyell kept a specimen of Actinia mesembryanthemun alive for 20 years and, in The Biology of the Seashore (Sidgwick & Jackson, Ltd., London, 1922), Flattely and Walton report that Dalyell kept this anemone for 60 years....In The Invertebrates, Vol. 1 (McGraw-Hill Book Company, New York, 1940) Hyman states that some anemones live at least 50 years and probably even longer, and this seems to be a reasonable estimate."

 

[Der_Iron_Chef]

But back to the original question: I don't particularly advocate keeping any of these anemones. And I know that wasn't even your question. But why don't you just stick with your BTA?

 

[lilalove]

I don't think 20 gallons is stable enough for an anemone. If you "fit" in a closet, that doesn't mean you're comfortable.

 

[davocean]

Der Iron Chef, you're quoting how long someone kept one in captivity?
And those dates, is that when this experiment was done?
I think most of us agree aside from predation most species live longer in the wild than even our best systems.
From what I've read from current studies, I have seen statements that they can live 50- 100yrs, and maybe even indefinitely.
There's still alot to learn about them.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12862120#post12862120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davocean
Der Iron Chef, you're quoting how long someone kept one in captivity?
And those dates, is that when this experiment was done?
I think most of us agree aside from predation most species live longer in the wild than even our best systems.
From what I've read from current studies, I have seen statements that they can live 50- 100yrs, and maybe even indefinitely.
There's still alot to learn about them.

Please provide references. I have not seen this in the primary litt..

 

[E.J. Coral]

So in the end, the claim of immortal anemones remains unsubstantiated i guess.

So slakker, what about other cnidarians. Should we not keep SPS or lps.....? Where should we draw the line? I have never seen a 30 year old SPS coral in someones tank. Does that mean that we shouldn't keep them?

IMO the real issue isn't the potential lifespan, but the ecological impact of the trade and this applies to ALL of the animals that we harvest for ornamental purposes.

If it weren't for people attempting to keep SPS a few years ago, we would be able to keep them now. The same goes for anemones. If we don't try, we will never be able to keep them.

Our hobby is a cruel, selfish, and destructive one and there is nothing that you or I can do about it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12861502#post12861502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Short of purchasing the text I'm left with little more than google search results. I did find this journal article that can be purchased, which I don't plan to do, but the abstract includes the following:



It can be found here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8667k567686h96q/

Pretty much on par with what I remember. The primitive nature of cnidarian systems is such that there is very little damage to cells during the division process. It is this type of cell damage that causes aging in higher organisms.
While, of course, we have not observed first hand these animals living for hundreds of years, we can certainly hypothesize that it would be the case, and I'm sure there are viable ways to test such a hypothesis.

It seems to be a fairly commonly accepted theory in the scientific community that cnidarians in general have very little in their makeup that would be cause for a definite lifespan. As with just about everything else in science, it's a theory, but so is gravity.

Edit:
Here's another sad fact for you, can be found in Joyce Wilkerson's book: 95% of aquarists with 2-5 years of experience can't keep an anemone alive longer than 2 years. 1 in 32 anemones doesn't live past 5 in the captive system.

For a creature that doesn't age, those numbers are depressing.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12861502#post12861502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Short of purchasing the text I'm left with little more than google search results. I did find this journal article that can be purchased, which I don't plan to do, but the abstract includes the following:



It can be found here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8667k567686h96q/

Pretty much on par with what I remember. The primitive nature of cnidarian systems is such that there is very little damage to cells during the division process. It is this type of cell damage that causes aging in higher organisms.
While, of course, we have not observed first hand these animals living for hundreds of years, we can certainly hypothesize that it would be the case, and I'm sure there are viable ways to test such a hypothesis.

It seems to be a fairly commonly accepted theory in the scientific community that cnidarians in general have very little in their makeup that would be cause for a definite lifespan. As with just about everything else in science, it's a theory, but so is gravity.

Edit:
Here's another sad fact for you, can be found in Joyce Wilkerson's book: 95% of aquarists with 2-5 years of experience can't keep an anemone alive longer than 2 years. 1 in 32 anemones doesn't live past 5 in the captive system.

For a creature that doesn't age, those numbers are depressing.

I would love to see a study similiar to wilkinsons study on SPS or other corals.

 

[E.J. Coral]

Actually what the article is saying is that the mitotic events replenish cells at a faster rate than they undergo aging. In laymans terms, new cells are being born faster than they can get sick (old). I don't think that it has anything to do with damage during mitosis. You are probably thinking of telomeres and thier relation to immortal cancer cells, but that is a different issue all together.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12861502#post12861502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Short of purchasing the text I'm left with little more than google search results. I did find this journal article that can be purchased, which I don't plan to do, but the abstract includes the following:



It can be found here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8667k567686h96q/

Pretty much on par with what I remember. The primitive nature of cnidarian systems is such that there is very little damage to cells during the division process. It is this type of cell damage that causes aging in higher organisms.
While, of course, we have not observed first hand these animals living for hundreds of years, we can certainly hypothesize that it would be the case, and I'm sure there are viable ways to test such a hypothesis.

It seems to be a fairly commonly accepted theory in the scientific community that cnidarians in general have very little in their makeup that would be cause for a definite lifespan. As with just about everything else in science, it's a theory, but so is gravity.

Edit:
Here's another sad fact for you, can be found in Joyce Wilkerson's book: 95% of aquarists with 2-5 years of experience can't keep an anemone alive longer than 2 years. 1 in 32 anemones doesn't live past 5 in the captive system.

For a creature that doesn't age, those numbers are depressing.