Who Doesn't Do Water Changes

I do Wc's maybe every 3 months or so if needed... 45gl mixed reef..I just top up with trace elements 10ml a week
Edit: I forgot.. I also vodka dose
 
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This is always the hot topic really.. well, not the "if" but the "how often". I use tap water, many many people in my city, use tap with Prime. Calgary is well known for its pristine water conditions. I still see a difference between tap and RO/DI. But there is no chance of me hooking up a system in my bathroom of my apartment. If I get a house in the near future like I plan, and can set up a larger more set system, RO/DI for sure. For now I do very well with bi-weekly water changes, and top up with a premade tub of Primed tap water. Fish are healthy, coral is very healthy and grows like weeds. Slight cyano problem that is kept in check with little work.

The larger the system, the more stable, the more stable it is, the less you have to do water changes. Even then keep in mind the bioload, the more fish you have, and the lower quantity and less diverse a CUC you have, the more likely you should do water changes more often. Everything is compounded by each own persons system. Do what works and if it aint broke, dont touch it, cause you will likely screw it up.
 
I hope I'm not derailing any discussion or violating any rules, so tell me if I am. :)

I am shortly going to setup a 25g QT tank. I haven't done a water change for almost 6 weeks. Maybe more.

My plan is to siphon water from my DT into 5g buckets. Dump the water and some sand from the DT into the QT tank. Grab some rock pieces and some PVC pipe fittings I've placed in the sump, put them in the QT. Pull the rest of the rock out into tubs with some more DT water. Then go fishing with nowhere for them to hide. Transfer more water from the DT and fish to the QT. Then refill the DT with remaining water, put Rocks back in DT. And then refill the DT with 25g of new Salt water.

So, my simple question, is changing too much water detrimental to corals? I would be doing almost 25g water change on a 55g tank with 14g sump.

The QT will eventually go hypo over a period of 48 hours, but, initially to destress the fish, I want exact parameters in the QT as the DT. The only way to do that is to ensure I fill 100% with the same water initially. Then change it out with fresh water over a couple days. It'd almost be a 50% (well given displacement probably closer to 60% water change.)

What will this really cause problems for the DT?
 
outy said:
for those that are talking tank crashing thats absurd, you will just see a slow decline in your tanks health when it needs love, you will have mystery deaths of your less then hardy inhabitants though and algea and bacteria blooms yes your buddy cyano
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What is your definition of a crash? What causes a crash? In my case, my tank started to decline, and I lost a very large frogspawn... this caused a small ammonia spike which in turn killed my 5 purple Queen Anthias. Then I lost my cucumber from this second spike, and it was all downhill from there. The high Nitrates and Phosphates, and continued poor maintenance caused a huge HA explosion after that. If I had done my maintenance and taken care of the first small spike faster, it may not have happened. I think it is absurd to think that it is ok to lose your less than hardy inhabitants, and that it is ok to have a small slow decline in your tanks health. I would rather nip it in the bud, and do what I can to not have this decline.

Outy, I am not trying to attack you here at all, but there are a great deal of new people that read this forum, and I think that it is our duty to get them on the right track with good habits. With experience, they can adjust their routine over time, and what works for an experienced person with a well established tank will not work for everyone. There is much more to reef keeping than water changes, but it is one of the easiest things to learn, and has proven to lead to success.

In Paul B's case, he is very experienced, has a large skimmer, uses RO water and knows the WC schedule that works for him and his tank. In regards to the original poster, he was told that his system with no skimmer would never need water changes by an LFS. That is what we need to address here. All systems are different and will require different habits, but it is not a bad idea to teach new people the suggested routine, and let them adjust over time as they need to. Properly executed water changes will not hurt any system, and can only benefit the tank life.
 
Paul B said:
Outy, nice to see you.
There is way more to this hobby than water changes.
I am not saying to never change your water, we of course need to change water but remember how your animals looked when the tank was all new water.
Not too good I bet.
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Agreed. However, when I transferred tanks last year, I used 100% new water and things went nuts. My snails spawned and the corals had unprecedented PE. Either they were way unhappy in my old water or the new water was like a breath of fresh air. Ever since, I've been a religious water changer....
 
Paul B said:
Outy, nice to see you.
There is way more to this hobby than water changes.
I am not saying to never change your water, we of course need to change water but remember how your animals looked when the tank was all new water.
Not too good I bet.
Click to expand...

"animals looked when the tank was all new water"

Do you mean putting fish in a tank that is not cycled?? I don't think any one here would encourage anybody do that.

Another reason I like to do a water change is to clean up my sump.
 
Jason S said:
What is your definition of a crash? What causes a crash? In my case, my tank started to decline, and I lost a very large frogspawn... this caused a small ammonia spike which in turn killed my 5 purple Queen Anthias. Then I lost my cucumber from this second spike, and it was all downhill from there. The high Nitrates and Phosphates, and continued poor maintenance caused a huge HA explosion after that. If I had done my maintenance and taken care of the first small spike faster, it may not have happened. I think it is absurd to think that it is ok to lose your less than hardy inhabitants, and that it is ok to have a small slow decline in your tanks health. I would rather nip it in the bud, and do what I can to not have this decline.

Outy, I am not trying to attack you here at all, but there are a great deal of new people that read this forum, and I think that it is our duty to get them on the right track with good habits. With experience, they can adjust their routine over time, and what works for an experienced person with a well established tank will not work for everyone. There is much more to reef keeping than water changes, but it is one of the easiest things to learn, and has proven to lead to success.

In Paul B's case, he is very experienced, has a large skimmer, uses RO water and knows the WC schedule that works for him and his tank. In regards to the original poster, he was told that his system with no skimmer would never need water changes by an LFS. That is what we need to address here. All systems are different and will require different habits, but it is not a bad idea to teach new people the suggested routine, and let them adjust over time as they need to. Properly executed water changes will not hurt any system, and can only benefit the tank life.
Click to expand...

First of all if you read through this whole thread you will realize im on the "do water change" side of things, I have done less water changes then Paul and my tank is overgrown to where I "have to" not want sell frags my tank has been very successful yet I still say its not a matter of IF you will do water changes but how often. For OP yes I stated that in the beginning he will have to stay on top of it and do his work. I also stated but you missed that I wont be doing it again.

If you dont pull dead or dieing material out of your tank YES it will crash, thats not a water change issue. If you want to try and save sick coral you start a hospital tank, you dont leave it in your display tank. Many people here do water changes for 2 reasons, #1 to pull out po3 and po4 and the second reason is lack of skill because they dont have alk and ca and mag down so they have to change water to keep there water in check chemicaly so they dont loose everything that way.

what it comes down to is frequency of water changes is a equipment thing and a skill thing,,,,, and sometimes its lifestyle changes where you only hope your tank comes out well on the other side. I have done all 3 and im speaking from my mistakes not success
 
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Remember I did not say to never change water, I think I said something like Obviousely we need to change water but that will not "cure" everything. It may help but people are talking about changing water every two weeks to replace trace elements and IMO it is not necessary to replace trace elements that often.
A new tank needs a lot more water changes than an established tank and there is really no such thing as a cycled tank, it is an ongoing process that changes as livestock dies or is added.
Just as important as water changes is food. Too much, too little, wrong type etc, this is what causes a tank to foul and the wrong type of food severly lowers the immune system of a fish to where it is suseptable to paracites and all sorts of diseases.
Unlike us humans who can get away with eating potato chips and beer for years, fish can not. As soon as a fish loses it's ability to spawn, it is suseptable to everything.
How many people on here put a fish in their tank and a few days later everything has ich?
That would not happen if the fish were in spawning condition.
So, yes, change your water if you like but don't do that and ignore the other things that you also need to be concerned about.
Hey guys, have a great day
Paul

I'd love to see this tank, any photos?
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Dream machine, my tank has been on here to death, here is a very long thread spanning years if you have a spare month to read.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711320
 
outy said:
First of all if you read through this whole thread you will realize im on the "do water change" side of things, I have done less water changes then Paul and my tank is overgrown to where I "have to" not want sell frags my tank has been very successful yet I still say its not a matter of IF you will do water changes but how often. For OP yes I stated that in the beginning he will have to stay on top of it and do his work. I also stated but you missed that I wont be doing it again.

If you dont pull dead or dieing material out of your tank YES it will crash, thats not a water change issue. If you want to try and save sick coral you start a hospital tank, you dont leave it in your display tank. Many people here do water changes for 2 reasons, #1 to pull out po3 and po4 and the second reason is lack of skill because they dont have alk and ca and mag down so they have to change water to keep there water in check chemicaly so they dont loose everything that way.

what it comes down to is frequency of water changes is a equipment thing and a skill thing,,,,, and sometimes its lifestyle changes where you only hope your tank comes out well on the other side. I have done all 3 and im speaking from my mistakes not success
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We are saying the same thing about doing water changes...

My point was that my neglegent WC schedule is what caused the first death, and my thoughts that it would all cycle out only further led to the demise. You stated that it was absurd to think that lack of water changes would cause a crash, and I was simply pointing out the contrary. If you see the part that I quoted, you will realize that. There is no reason for you to get on the defensive, and start trying to point out how great your tank is with few water changes. Lets not try to preach to me about the importance of removing something dead from a tank... that was many many years ago, and I sort of get it. The fact remains that you do them... period, and that is the message that we need to get out. We agreed on that. I was simply arguing the "absurd" comment that I quoted earlier.

I am now laughing at your comment about lack of skill being a main cause of water changes. I do them regularly... does that mean I am inexperienced? Does that mean I lack skill? With an SPS dominant tank, I am not going to take any chances... plain and simple. Lack of "skill" has nothing to do with it.

Lets try to keep this civil... after all, we are here for enjoyment, right?
 
just a thought...............

just a thought...............

bear in mind that as far as the hobby - and available test kits - have come...
we STILL cannot test for everything in our water. Good or bad stuff. The basics - sure, but not ALL of the chemicals that accumulate, or all of those that deplete.

The basic principle of water changes is the same as sound nutritional advice that we all have seen: drink more water ( to help flush/clean out the toxins and hydrate properly) and take your vitamins ( to help insure your get the nutrients needed for good health)

And, yes - there are a few of us that have been in the hobby long enough to have the "feel" - which goes way beyond test kits - for when and how much water to change. It comes with experience. it cannot be easily surmized by formulas.
And - one commonality among long term no/little water change systems is the stability of the tank inhabitants. This is not an approach which lends itself to continuing to add livestock of any consequence.

It is the difference in being able to read a cookbook - and being a great cook- that probably never needs a cookbook anymore.


Paul - if you read this, could you chime in as to your tank inhabitants, and how long you have had each? (Thanks in advance)

T
 
Paul - if you read this, could you chime in as to your tank inhabitants, and how long you have had each? (Thanks in advance
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There have been long lived animals in the tank but of coures if we keep a tank long enough we will have accidents. In the 40 years since my tank was set up I have killed the corals twice, both times it was from zinc orthophosphate that my town adds to the water to control corrosion in the pipes. Even with my RO/Di enough zinc got through in my water change water to instantly kill most of the corals. Because of this none of my corals are over 10 years old. Now I have installed resins specifically made for zinc and I have these hanging on my tank in a canister, the water goes through that after the RO/DI. In those years I also had two accidents that killed most, but not all of the fish. I was away on a family emergency (My Mother ended up dying a while after) which happened right in the middle of some tank maintenance where I had a bunch of fish, including a 5 year old moorish Idol a 5 year old mandarin, a 12 year old hippo tang and an 18 year old cusk eel or brutlyd in a 15 gallon tank with no filtration.
Something must have died and killed all those fish.
I still have living a 16 (or 17) year old fireclown a 10 year old hippo tang and a pair of about 13 year old hermit crabs and a 10 or 12 year old urchin.
The hermit crabs, fire clowns, bluestriped pipefish and two pairs of old watchman gobies are all spawning.
Some of my first fish in the 70s were blue devils (the only fish available at the time) they lived 7 years and spawned almost every two months.
A pair of coral banded shrimp also spawned for 7 years.
I don't think I have lost a fish to a disease in over 20 years, I can't remember the last one. I do not have to quarantine or hardly change water but as was said, don't do what I do, I keep the fish in breeding condition by making sure they get plenty of foods that are loaded with fish oil. I feel that this is the most important thing that you can do but that is for another thread as I have posted it numerous times.
But if your fish are not spawning, they are very prone to paracites and disease so you will need to quarantine and probably change water way more than I do.
I think my fish would live forever if I didn't kill them from some stupid mistake. All we can do is learn from our mistakes and try to make sure they don't happen again.
Power goes out, kids put soap in the water, cats jump in, heaters stick, all sorts of things happen. Thank God I don't have any cats. :beachbum:
 
Jason S said:
We are saying the same thing about doing water changes...

My point was that my neglegent WC schedule is what caused the first death, and my thoughts that it would all cycle out only further led to the demise. You stated that it was absurd to think that lack of water changes would cause a crash, and I was simply pointing out the contrary. If you see the part that I quoted, you will realize that. There is no reason for you to get on the defensive, and start trying to point out how great your tank is with few water changes. Lets not try to preach to me about the importance of removing something dead from a tank... that was many many years ago, and I sort of get it. The fact remains that you do them... period, and that is the message that we need to get out. We agreed on that. I was simply arguing the "absurd" comment that I quoted earlier.

I am now laughing at your comment about lack of skill being a main cause of water changes. I do them regularly... does that mean I am inexperienced? Does that mean I lack skill? With an SPS dominant tank, I am not going to take any chances... plain and simple. Lack of "skill" has nothing to do with it.

Lets try to keep this civil... after all, we are here for enjoyment, right?
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its all good bud your just missunderstanding what im trying to say. Im fine and friendly lol theres more then one positive way to run a successful reef.

"skill" means you understand your bioload and if your low level test reads 0 for po3 and po4 and you know exactly what your alk, ca and mag levels are and if there in check and you havnt done a water change in a month then your doing something right "skill" you can change water that doesnt make you less skilled.

If my corals even hint at a slide in health im changing water AND testing to find out whats going on out of the ordinary.

I still stand behind lack of water changes will not crash a tank, if you let it go beyond stupid yes but that is another story. Any tank will die under neglect but theres a big difference between neglect and water change frequency. when you get cyano and GHA it was allready past time for a water change, let it go past that and its neglect.

You cant get to keeping SPS alive over a year without skill and part of that is maintaining water quality, I know a few proffesionals that dont change water much at all in there SPS tanks because they have seen changes in salt batches and wont chance that, plus if there DI resin is getting old sometimes you dont pick that up until you see diatoms arg lol. If your doing SPS my hats off to you after 14 years im still having trouble balancing alk and ca without a reactor to make the jump. I will probably be getting a ca reactor soon and move on to SPS but now LPS is still allot of easy and cheap fun.
 
Paul - that is an amazing group of lengevity numbers for your animals! Accidents aside - some of your animals are probably as old as some hobbyists on this forum!:celeb2:!!!

outy: - You do make mention of something else to consider in all of the minutia of details about water changes....and that is - what kind of tank inhabitants one chooses to keep.

SPS tanks do require a more stringent watch over the water quality perameters.

LPS - less so

Soft corals, even less.

So, this may be at the heart of some mis-understandings, even dis-agreements about the frequency, size and - even the need for water changes.

T
 
teesquare said:
Paul - that is an amazing group of lengevity numbers for your animals! Accidents aside - some of your animals are probably as old as some hobbyists on this forum!:celeb2:!!!

outy: - You do make mention of something else to consider in all of the minutia of details about water changes....and that is - what kind of tank inhabitants one chooses to keep.

SPS tanks do require a more stringent watch over the water quality perameters.

LPS - less so

Soft corals, even less.

So, this may be at the heart of some mis-understandings, even dis-agreements about the frequency, size and - even the need for water changes.T
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exactly.

Example: let some green star polyps or Xenia or Sinularia or Kenya Tree grow in a reef aquarium for a year or two with minimal water changes. The stuff can do great!

Now... try introducing an Acropora frag into that same toxic soup aquarium and see what happens to it ;)
 
If you examine where various corals we keep are actually collected, you might be amazed at how nasty the water is where mushrooms, and many of the zooanthids come from.
On the contrary, the SPS corals are most often found in pristine waters with much more flow.

Not to open the "flow" debate...oh God! I said the "F" word.....please ignore that word:worried:
T
 
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