Who got the rusty/flame hybrid from DD?
- Thread starter Rare Angels
- Start date
Nice, but a bit pricey IMO. Anyway, for you hybrid lovers, go for it..
Actually, I'm finding it kind of interesting that different species can interbreed freely. Is this due to spawning vs internal fertilization ( I don't believe anyone has seen hybrid sharks, could be mistaken though.)???
Matthew
Actually, I'm finding it kind of interesting that different species can interbreed freely. Is this due to spawning vs internal fertilization ( I don't believe anyone has seen hybrid sharks, could be mistaken though.)???
Matthew
Hybridization is not uncommon in the development of new species of any sort. I'm an evolutionary biologist, though my training is in plant genetics and evolution. I'm with copps, I love the story, too.
Though, personally the fish that do it for me are ones that many people find ugly or weird - I like rare puffers, odd scorps, other venomous fish, anglers, small boxfish, seahorses, wolf eel blennies...
Some would say these fish were overpriced, but they are worth every penny to me. I can certainly respect the passion the hybrid angel buffs feel for their dream fish.
Though, personally the fish that do it for me are ones that many people find ugly or weird - I like rare puffers, odd scorps, other venomous fish, anglers, small boxfish, seahorses, wolf eel blennies...
Some would say these fish were overpriced, but they are worth every penny to me. I can certainly respect the passion the hybrid angel buffs feel for their dream fish.
melanotaenia
New member
nothing demeaning about my post; I just don't see the wow factor in the fish, for those that do, that's great, but I don't regard this with the same fascination as some of the other hybrids we have seen on these boards. I have followed numerous posts of yours regarding your acquisitions, and respect the fish you do keep, but there are some hybrids, like this one, that just don't bring the same excitement for me, regardless of the story behind it.
I can appreciate a new species as much as the next guy, but this one just is not one of them; it basically looks like a flame with less black striping. But hey, that small percentage of the hobby that follows these fish and get a kick out of it is cool. Just not my cup of tea. And just my two cents. And just my opinion.
This is why I don't post on these boards very much anymore.
I don't think "this" is a reason not to post. But a few reasons to post would be to help someone out, to give some information you might know, if you like a fish, if you have experience with a fish, or if you have a question just to name a few. Not to say oh this fish is too expensive, hey that looks like a flame angel, I wouldn't pay that.... blah blah
I don't know why this thread got so much negative response. Usually the threads about the Diver's Den fish that sell quickly are just to get a pic and see who got the fish. And usually those who post on the subject are interested.
Everyone likes different fish and everyone can afford different fish.
I don't know how many flame rusty hybrids you guys have seen but I have only seen pics and none in real life. BUT I have seen more expensive angels and fish. These don't come around that often and I think it should be appreciated for what it is. Whether or not you like angels or think it is over priced or not, I think you should applaud liveaquaria for bringing a fish like this so we can see it even if that is all we plan on doing.
HomeSlizzice
Angelfish/Wrasse Nut!
I don't understand why? Maybe its because of some flack you might get from some hater, but the people (like me) who love to gaze at pictures of these amazing fish get short handed. If I got some super crazy expensive rare fish, or any fish for that matter, I would be posting pics of them. Sure I might get that one person who thinks I'm ridiculous and stupid for spending money on such a fish, but they are some random person over the Internet and I wouldn't let some random person over the Internet affect me. The ones who appreciate the pics will give compliments and thank you for sharing.
And back to the fish this thread is about. I think it is an awesome fish and would love to own it (I like the idea of pairing it up with a true flame) and I think the story behind it is also cool. I would love to see more pics of it from the person who bought it, and I also would like to commend LiveAquaria for bring in such a fish. Yes I find a regular Hawaiian, or most other Flame Angels for the matter, more beautiful. BUT that is my HUMBLE opinion. AND YOU should not let anybodys opinion change YOUR mind on what fish YOU like. Like copps says "buy fish that excite you."
And to whoever bought this I would LOVE for you to post some picss of your BEAUTIFUL fish.
AquaKnight
Active member
I think a lot of the blame has to go towards me. I had the first reply and posted the pic. My comments should have definitely been more positive/respective towards the fish, and to set the tone of the thread. My brief, sharp comments didn't help anything.
It was just that I had been checking emails since the first time they including it in the sneak peek, then took it off, then relisted it. I obviously had not see the fish itself, nor the price. I was pounding the refresh key for 30mins, I was pretty interested in purchasing. Just once he did pop up, it didn't look like I expected, nor priced what I thought.
I certainly get the "importance" of this fish however. If there's any thought of more fish like this hybrid, there has to be a positive consumer base. So if I don't like this fish, maybe I'll like the next one.
It was just that I had been checking emails since the first time they including it in the sneak peek, then took it off, then relisted it. I obviously had not see the fish itself, nor the price. I was pounding the refresh key for 30mins, I was pretty interested in purchasing. Just once he did pop up, it didn't look like I expected, nor priced what I thought.
I certainly get the "importance" of this fish however. If there's any thought of more fish like this hybrid, there has to be a positive consumer base. So if I don't like this fish, maybe I'll like the next one.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15745911#post15745911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HomeSlizzice
I don't understand why? Maybe its because of some flack you might get from some hater, but the people (like me) who love to gaze at pictures of these amazing fish get short handed. If I got some super crazy expensive rare fish, or any fish for that matter, I would be posting pics of them. Sure I might get that one person who thinks I'm ridiculous and stupid for spending money on such a fish, but they are some random person over the Internet and I wouldn't let some random person over the Internet affect me. The ones who appreciate the pics will give compliments and thank you for sharing.
And back to the fish this thread is about. I think it is an awesome fish and would love to own it (I like the idea of pairing it up with a true flame) and I think the story behind it is also cool. I would love to see more pics of it from the person who bought it, and I also would like to commend LiveAquaria for bring in such a fish. Yes I find a regular Hawaiian, or most other Flame Angels for the matter, more beautiful. BUT that is my HUMBLE opinion. AND YOU should not let anybodys opinion change YOUR mind on what fish YOU like. Like copps says "buy fish that excite you."
And to whoever bought this I would LOVE for you to post some picss of your BEAUTIFUL fish.
I personally own a lot of expensive fish, but Im not sure that I will ever post pictures, or a stock list ever again, because of the amount of effort I have to put into "defending" myself. People saying "why didnt you just buy a .... for a fraction the price", or "I wish I had your disposable income" is insulting and demeaning, to say the least. And it certainly isnt constructive. It almost as if these people they have the right to give me an audit of sorts. It serves no positive benefit, and grows tiring, because it is never only one or two people or comments. If you look at nearly every single thread about rare and/or expensive fish in this forum, there is ALWAYS numerous comments exactly along these lines.
I buy fish for me, and choose to share them with people who have a common interest, which I assumed was here on RC. However, if I wanted criticism of *how* to spend my money, I will instead show pictures to my mother. At least she has the right to be critical of it.
aww, just let the ones that don't get why you'd spend all that money run off you like water off a duck's back. there are enough of us here that are enablers and cheerleaders of spending $$$s on the fish you like to give you props. I couldn't give ANYONE outside of you guys an idea of what I spend on fish in a year.
I couldn't give ANYONE outside of you guys an idea of what I spend on fish in a year.melanotaenia
New member
These hybrid species threads are starting to get a little old, I miss the good old threads about a beautiful Emperor, Blue Face, or other Angel. When was the last time stuff like that was posted? Hybridization of fish in the wild is certainly nothing novel.
But again, for those that like the fish for the story behind it, that's cool. And for whoever bought this fish, I hope i brings you years of enjoyment in your reef of fish only aquarium.
But again, for those that like the fish for the story behind it, that's cool. And for whoever bought this fish, I hope i brings you years of enjoyment in your reef of fish only aquarium.
copps
Premium Member
If it's not your cup of tea that's fine... but when you say it is only the cup of tea of one in 100 million people (or whatever 0.0000001% is), that's different... let other hobbyists decide for themselves what they like to read...
Okay, let us know when we're good to post again without you taking issue...
this is a forum on reef fishes... there are alot of hybrid reef fishes... if you do not like these find another thread or forum...
These fish have trickled in for years as C. shepardi... they are not... this is the first specimen retailed for what it is... that is the definition of novel...
Here you go... there are actually two emperors... and the last post was three days ago...
When you continually post in a thread that you don't have interest, no one should have interest, and other comments you have, don't get upset when people take issue with it... as I said before there are many threads I have no interest in, but I don't continually post in them derailing them...
copps
Premium Member
Back on topic, one of the interesting things is that flame angels are coming out of Cebu in more than onesies and twosies... rusties are of course much more common though... and of course central Pacific locations send out exponentially more, but it's an interesting note... The APB is out with the people bringing these fish in and each fish is being scrutinized... I'm trying to get more info from the collectors, as this is news to everyone including ichthyologists... pretty neat what's going on...
Is anyone doing any confirmatory testing with genetic markers? I don't even know if there are good markers for differentiating angelfish species, but it's not uncommon to use DNA kits to identify food fish species. It's also been done for seahorse taxonomic studies.
copps
Premium Member
I'm not aware of any genetic testing on these particular hybrids, but in Centropyge it is well known that color based taxonomy and genetic structure don't always match up... for instance, Centropyge argi (the cherubfish) and Centropyge aurantonota (Brazilian flamebacks), are indistinguishable looking at their mtDNA... basically, color can evolve much faster than DNA can diverge... especially in Centropyge... there is an Atlantic Halichoeres wrasse found in the Caribbean and Bermuda that show vast color differences between populations... yet they've found the Bermudan population to be less than 15,000 years old... so when it comes to color and genetics... read my signature... Fascinating stuff! (At least for a small percentage of us!) 
Fascinating stuff! (At least for a small percentage of us!)
I've always been leery of taxonomy where morphological/color traits that can respond quickly to selection are used to distinguish species. Changes in color and pattern can occur through segregation of existing alleles, and can respond quickly to selection or be fixed by genetic drift or founder effect. Without more information, it's hard to say whether speciation has occurred or not - but it also depends on how you define a species...
I also believe mtDNA is also not the best tool for distinguishing closely related species that have diverged fairly recently in evolutionary time. In general, mtDNA is highly conserved and changes very slowly. So while mtDNA differences reflect mutations and can be useful for building phylogenetic trees, I don't think mtDNA is going to be much good for the speciation and hybridization we are discussing here.
I've been out of cutting edge molecular evolution and genetics for a while - my current job doesn't require that I stay current with the technology. But I think there are some decent "intermediate" genetic markers that have more use for distinguishing species OR for assessing population genetic structure.
It's always a matter of finding the "just right" markers to look at populations or putative new species.
One of the problems of discussing speciation is that it is a somewhat artificial category, and different disciplines have different definitions of what a species really is. Even the taxonomists can't agree, having both lumper and splitter schools.
I also believe mtDNA is also not the best tool for distinguishing closely related species that have diverged fairly recently in evolutionary time. In general, mtDNA is highly conserved and changes very slowly. So while mtDNA differences reflect mutations and can be useful for building phylogenetic trees, I don't think mtDNA is going to be much good for the speciation and hybridization we are discussing here.
I've been out of cutting edge molecular evolution and genetics for a while - my current job doesn't require that I stay current with the technology. But I think there are some decent "intermediate" genetic markers that have more use for distinguishing species OR for assessing population genetic structure.
It's always a matter of finding the "just right" markers to look at populations or putative new species.
One of the problems of discussing speciation is that it is a somewhat artificial category, and different disciplines have different definitions of what a species really is. Even the taxonomists can't agree, having both lumper and splitter schools.
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Toddrtrex
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747558#post15747558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
I'm not aware of any genetic testing on these particular hybrids, but in Centropyge it is well known that color based taxonomy and genetic structure don't always match up... for instance, Centropyge argi (the cherubfish) and Centropyge aurantonota (Brazilian flamebacks), are indistinguishable looking at their mtDNA... basically, color can evolve much faster than DNA can diverge... especially in Centropyge... there is an Atlantic Halichoeres wrasse found in the Caribbean and Bermuda that show vast color differences between populations... yet they've found the Bermudan population to be less than 15,000 years old... so when it comes to color and genetics... read my signature...
Even though it is getting a bit over my head, I find it fascinating too. Been a long time since I had a Bio class. Is there a big difference b/t mtDNA and plain DNA?
