Who got the rusty/flame hybrid from DD?

[LisaD]

yes - nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA are very different in how they are transmitted and in the mutation rate.

for anyone interested speciation and evolutionary biology, there are some good books out there that show lots of examples.

A great read on mtDNA technology applied to fossils and to human evolution:
The Seven Daughters of Eve by Brian Sykes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

For learning about evolutionary biology and the history of science, anything by Stephen Jay Gould.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould

The theory behind the use of some genetic markers for looking at sequence and time of speciation is called the "molecular clock". If you are feeling geeky, and want to take a look, here is a good intro. When the molecular clock is calibrated to mtDNA, it runs very slow...

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/The-Molecular-Clock-and-Estimating-Species-Divergence-41971

For anyone interested, I could come up with a more extensive list.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

If my evolutionary biology from college is still valid (in my noggin), mtDNA come from the mothers side only.

 

[LisaD]

yes, it is only transmitted through the cytoplasm. in most (but not all) species, male gametes such as sperm or pollen, do not carry cytoplasm. I believe mitochondrial DNA rarely if ever recombines, unlike nuclear DNA, so it is highly conserved.

both male and female individuals carry mitochondrial DNA, but it can only be passed on by the mother.

for studying evolution through the male line, the Y chromosome (where there is an X Y sex differentiation system) can be used. the Y chromosome does not undergo recombination either.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746554#post15746554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I personally own a lot of expensive fish, but Im not sure that I will ever post pictures, or a stock list ever again, because of the amount of effort I have to put into "defending" myself. People saying "why didnt you just buy a .... for a fraction the price", or "I wish I had your disposable income" is insulting and demeaning, to say the least. And it certainly isnt constructive. It almost as if these people they have the right to give me an audit of sorts. It serves no positive benefit, and grows tiring, because it is never only one or two people or comments. If you look at nearly every single thread about rare and/or expensive fish in this forum, there is ALWAYS numerous comments exactly along these lines.

Thats true, and I understand the frustration. But what I do is what LisaD said, "just let those comments roll off your back like water on a duck" or what ever LisaD said. And it has worked so far.

What about putting the pics of your fish in your gallery?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746554#post15746554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I buy fish for me, and choose to share them with people who have a common interest, which I assumed was here on RC. However, if I wanted criticism of *how* to spend my money, I will instead show pictures to my mother. At least she has the right to be critical of it.

That is also true, I have seen many threads were that happens. It is sad when some guy posts pics of his beautiful new fish or is dream fish that he just got, and then some people give him crap because it looks similar to this certain fish which is half the cost, or whatever. It is weird, you would think that people on this forum would be more than happy to see the pics of everybody's fish and give complements, but sadly thats not how it always is. Even though it should be.


But I respect your discision to do what ever you want, and like always Beautiful fish.

David

 

[LisaD]

It is sad when some guy posts pics of his beautiful new fish or is dream fish that he just got, and then some people give him crap because it looks similar to this certain fish which is half the cost, or whatever.

Yikes! :eek2: I think I see myself in that comment. For example, when people have posted on their new conspic angel, I recall posting that I like the blue spotted angle and gray poma about as much. But I swear, I'm not knocking their fish - conspics are awesome. I'm always happy for folks that find the fish they are passionate about, and I hope my posts are perceived as positive and respectful!

Regarding the conspic example (it was probably your thread jmaneypanda) I was trying to add that there are some relatively uncommon, underappreciated, but not so expensive fish in the same genus that I find very attractive. That maybe some people that can't afford or get access to that special fish could have in their systems... For the times I've made that kind of comment in a thread, please don't take it the wrong way, it's not meant at all as a criticism of your fish or your judgment.

And thanks to everyone that didn't crucify me for buying the DD golden dalmation dogface puffer. I could have gotten just about any other color morph of dogface puffer a fraction of the price. Any of my family or friends outside of RC would never have let that purchase go without a lot of negative comment. It's a good thing my husband and I keep our discretionary money in separate accounts!

 

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747952#post15747952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
I've always been leery of taxonomy where morphological/color traits that can respond quickly to selection are used to distinguish species. Changes in color and pattern can occur through segregation of existing alleles, and can respond quickly to selection or be fixed by genetic drift or founder effect. Without more information, it's hard to say whether speciation has occurred or not - but it also depends on how you define a species...

I also believe mtDNA is also not the best tool for distinguishing closely related species that have diverged fairly recently in evolutionary time. In general, mtDNA is highly conserved and changes very slowly. So while mtDNA differences reflect mutations and can be useful for building phylogenetic trees, I don't think mtDNA is going to be much good for the speciation and hybridization we are discussing here.

I've been out of cutting edge molecular evolution and genetics for a while - my current job doesn't require that I stay current with the technology. But I think there are some decent "intermediate" genetic markers that have more use for distinguishing species OR for assessing population genetic structure.

It's always a matter of finding the "just right" markers to look at populations or putative new species.

One of the problems of discussing speciation is that it is a somewhat artificial category, and different disciplines have different definitions of what a species really is. Even the taxonomists can't agree, having both lumper and splitter schools.

For me Lisa, the taxonomy aspect in terms of defining a species is not the interesting part... to me that's simply humans trying to define shades of gray as black or white... the fascinating part for me is WHY these divergences happen... be it founder effect, speciation, genetic drift, natural selection, sexual selection, etc... you can argue over whether or not something is a different species... but you cannot argue that there are differences caused by something...

In regards to the mtDNA, that seems to be obvious for anyone who knows reef fish... so many of these "species" have diverged in an evolutionary blip in time...

 

[LisaD]

I'm with you. I don't care about taxonomy except where it is useful in describing relationships among different organisms - some folks can get a little rigid about it.

I am very interested in the mechanisms of speciation and how variation in populations is acted upon by selection.

When I used to teach undergrad and grad courses on genetics, biology, ecology, somehow, I always ended up with an evolutionary biology emphasis. And the stories were the best part.

Have you read SJ Gould's essays or his book "The Mismeasure of Man"? He was such a great scientist and writer.

 

[copps]

Evolution explains everything... plain and simple! You almost cannot speak any science for long without falling into it!

Ironically, my own interest in evolution had a direct result on my procreation, having met my wife in Ecuador and the Galapagos Islands while studying... While I studied biology and computers, biology remains my passion while computers pays the bills...

While my wife often gets frustrated with my fish fascination, I should remind her that without that fascination I never would have gone to Ecuador... met her... and thus had our two kids! Call it an example of the butterfly effect taken from chaos theory!

My pleasure readings nowadays consist of aquatic journals (and other related things) and Thomas the Train (and other related things)... but I want to add more things pertinent to this topic... shoot me a PM with recommendations please Lisa! I think I'll start with rereading "The Origin of Species"...

 

[jrobison]

The funny thing about this fish is that it "has trickled in for years as C. Shepardi" but now that there is a hype and someone actually knows what it is, the price jumps. I'm not knocking the fish, but everyone is giving kudos to LA, and even they probably wouldn't know what it was if it hadn't been for Copps, but now that they do they call it a $300 fish. Copps should get royalties for these fish.

 

[chort55]

Beautiful fish. Out of my personal budget right now but someday I would love to purchase one... + lol

 

[AuroraDrvr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15750057#post15750057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jrobison
The funny thing about this fish is that it "has trickled in for years as C. Shepardi" but now that there is a hype and someone actually knows what it is, the price jumps. I'm not knocking the fish, but everyone is giving kudos to LA, and even they probably wouldn't know what it was if it hadn't been for Copps, but now that they do they call it a $300 fish. Copps should get royalties for these fish.

Kevin is just as big a fish nut as they come.

 

[jrobison]

I'm sure he is a fish nut, I order from them a lot, and I am not putting them down at all. A good company should take advantage of an opportunity, it's just that until Copps told everyone what they were, they were cheap, now they are worth $300? They don't cost anymore to catch or ship than a few months ago. It's just funny how quickly people react to try and have something "rare", but the only thing rare about it is that this one was labeled correctly.

 

[copps]

These were never a cheap fish... the price for this specimen was very fair in my opinion... Kevin is a good friend and great guy... we speak regularly... and we'll be having a beer together in less than 24 hours! :beer: And I'll be telling a pretty wicked story in my talk at MACNA about Kevin when he was over my house...

 

[LisaD]

Evolution explains everything... plain and simple! You almost cannot speak any science for long without falling into it!

EXACTLY!

I'll send you a PM with reading ideas if you want to get back into it (but clear your inbox!) I miss research and teaching.

Give my best to Kevin. I really wanted to get to MACNA this year!

 

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15750708#post15750708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
These were never a cheap fish... the price for this specimen was very fair in my opinion... Kevin is a good friend and great guy... we speak regularly... and we'll be having a beer together in less than 24 hours! :beer: And I'll be telling a pretty wicked story in my talk at MACNA about Kevin when he was over my house...

Thats awesome, I wish I was older than 16 so I could fly around and meet all of these awesome people, including you john.

 

[fishkid6692]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15751865#post15751865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HomeSlizzice
Thats awesome, I wish I was older than 16 so I could fly around and meet all of these awesome people, including you john.

this is the main reason i'm so excited for macna! i can't wait to meet everyone!

 

[Outerbank]

Hybrids are really awesome. I have a very dark color pattern to my potter's angel. I really didn't appreciate the uniqueness of my fish and hybrids until recently.

That being said, I love all stunning, healthy specimens, be them common, rare, colorful, dull, big, small, hybrids, etc.

Congrats to the new owner.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15751884#post15751884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishkid6692
this is the main reason i'm so excited for macna! i can't wait to meet everyone!

I wish I could go to macna, but I will be going to Reef-A-Palooza.

 

[LisaD]

wish I could go, but I can't do it this year... I was a regular at IMAC, and had been to the MACNA several years ago in Clarksville, IN. maybe next year!

 

[Rare Angels]

I won't be able to go to MACNA either, I was really hoping to since there are a ton of great speakers. Was really hoping to hear John,s presentation also.

Dave