Who's had Ich with no treatment and tank survived?

[reverendmaynard]

Well, I can point to a very respected expert (Bob Fenner) who is a firm believer that hypo is NOT an effective cure for ick. Copper is more proven, IMO, but also kills many fish as well, either through improper application or just sensitive fish.

I'm glad to hear your powder brown came through, but there is no possible way that you KNOW that he would have died without treatment. Or that another treatment method wouldn't have been just as effective. Also, if whatever it had was "proven to be 100% fatal wihtout treatment" (as if there were such a thing in this hobby), that's an entirely different thing than ick. If you're willing to accept the anecdotal evidence of succesfull treatments, why are you dismissing the anecdotal evidence of those who say they don't treat and it goes away on it's own?

You can post as much anecdotal "proof" as you like about succesfull attempts at medication, but if I was of a mind I could post just as much "proof" that medications and the procedures used to deliver them, have killed many, many fish. IMO, ick is rarely fatal in otherwise healthy fish, and the mortality rates of the treatments are much higher than the ick itself. So, in that light, I would not pull a fish into a qt tank and treat it for a mild case of ick BECAUSE I care about them, not because I don't. It seems everyone else (or most anyway) is saying the same thing.

On your last comment...

So, assuming that there was a human disease that many believe could be treated with formalin (but really wasn't proven in any rigorous scientific fashion), you would feel comfortable dipping your child in it based on your own diagnosis, using OTC product of indeterminate age and efficacy, prepared by you, without ever having so much as spoken to a qualified physician about the problem? To each his/her own, I guess.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Fenner does like like the hypo method, your right..But he does advocate removing the fish to a qt, treating with copper and leaving the main fallow.

Yes, my Powder Brown WAS dying.He was laying on his side, breathing heavy and not eating. He had blotches all over and spots, worm like things protruding from his skin.. He lived because I treated him. I ask lots of questions and did a lot of reading [online and in my Noga book] before treating him. I used formalin and he is still alive and going in my 240 next week. No he didn't have ich, but I used the meds you state are so harmful and they worked.

The meds are not what kills the fish, its the person giving them the meds that kills them. Overdosing, misdiagnosis, Not researching BEFORE using them. Using medication properly, when needed , properly dosing, doing frequent water changes and testing the water will not kill the fish. Don't get me wrong, I won't pull a fish out for a couple of spots, but if a fish clearly has ich [or other issues]..I will treat them. I qt all fish before they go in my main, so ich is not an issue in my tanks. The Tang is a whole other story. But he's okay now...thats all that counts

Has it ever occurd to you that what people may think is ich, the ones that have the fish that have ich occasionally, may not be ich at all? Many conditions can be confused with a light ich outbreak. There are many, many parasites that most people have never heard of. I was amazed to see how many when I started reading Noga's book.

And I again repeat, I do not think anyone who has responded to this thread doesn't care for their fish..If they didn't care, they wouldn't post in this forum.


As far as The formalin use and my child
As I stated, I had many conversations with a very knowledgeable individual about the dips.[for my fish] Yes I was concerned about using the formalin but I wanted my fish to live and all the reading and online info pointed to formalin as the treatment. I don't medicate without researching.. So the fact that Noga's book and many experts recommended its use, I used it and it worked. I am no expert, and unfortunately, there are no fish doctors in my town..so I read..read ...read.. I seek advice of those who have experience..I don't listen to just anyone. And I don't sit back and watch the fish suffer.

If my child were dying, and experts were telling me formalin would save her...yes I would use it!!

I think we are both repeating ourselves:lol: This issue is right up there with religion and politics As long as people care for their fish the best they can, thats all thats important here.

 

[reverendmaynard]

Yes, my Powder Brown WAS dying.He was laying on his side, breathing heavy and not eating. He had blotches all over and spots, worm like things protruding from his skin.. He lived because I treated him. I ask lots of questions and did a lot of reading [online and in my Noga book] before treating him. I used formalin and he is still alive and going in my 240 next week. No he didn't have ich, but I used the meds you state are so harmful and they worked.

These are the circumstances that I would pull a fish out and it treat it for. It's clearly dying, and anything I do is unlikely to make the situation worse. In most cases, ick is not that severe.

Also, I wasn't trying to say that these medications (formalin specifically, but copper falls under the same category IMO) should never be used because they are so harmful, only that they work because they are poisons. As such, there is great risk of harming the fish further through their use than a bout of ick, or other non-fatal ailment, is likely to cause.

The meds are not what kills the fish, its the person giving them the meds that kills them. Overdosing, misdiagnosis, Not researching BEFORE using them. Using medication properly, when needed , properly dosing, doing frequent water changes and testing the water will not kill the fish. Don't get me wrong, I won't pull a fish out for a couple of spots, but if a fish clearly has ich [or other issues]..I will treat them. I qt all fish before they go in my main, so ich is not an issue in my tanks. The Tang is a whole other story. But he's okay now...thats all that counts

Has it ever occurd to you that what people may think is ich, the ones that have the fish that have ich occasionally, may not be ich at all? Many conditions can be confused with a light ich outbreak. There are many, many parasites that most people have never heard of. I was amazed to see how many when I started reading Noga's book.

This is exactly my point. I don't feel it's a good idea, in most cases, to put a fish through the stresses of treatment for an illness that may be misdiagnosed with what may be the wrong medication, improperly applied. Again, I make every effort NOT to treat my fish BECAUSE I care about their health.

In this hobby, you can do all the research possible, read every article about a subject by every available expert, even consult directly with those experts, and there is still no guarantee that you are getting a correct diagnosis, or being pointed to the correct treatment. There are too many things that no human being on the planet knows about saltwater fishes and their diseases/treatments.

As far as The formalin use and my child...

I find it hard to believe that you would medicate your child in any way with an unregulated substance that is a known poison based on the level of research you did for your powder browns condition. I'm pretty sure you would, you know, actually go see a doctor, who would then send you to a specialist, who would then prescribe the remedy. If that remedy was as dangerous as formalin, it would be administered in a hospital by qualified personnel.

There are no such doctors, specialists, hospitals, prescription medications, or qualified personnel to administer them in this hobby. Only "experts" who are themselves little more than highly experienced hobbiests.

I think we are both repeating ourselves This issue is right up there with religion and politics As long as people care for their fish the best they can, thats all thats important here.

I agree. We are all trying to do the best we can by our charges. As with everything else in this hobby, there are many effective (and some not so effective) ways to do so. Just something about your post above my first one rubbed me the wrong way. I'll shut up now.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

A few hours after I wrote that post, I thought 'oh no...I am really going to tick someone off':lol: Really didn't mean to. I guess I am curious to understand how the 'other half ' thinks

I think we both agree...Medications can kill..They are toxic and must be used with care. Many people just starting off experiment with these meds, They see spots and listen to advice given by the LFS employee who states it must be ich and they go home and treat the fish without knowing the dangers. Formalin dips must be done in water under 80 degrees....Copper and a low PH can kill....Mixing many meds is a no no..

I usually tell people who see a couple spots on their fish to wait, observe the fish. A couple of spots is not a concern if the fish is eating and behaving normally....If it goes away, its my belief that it was not ich...thats all


Okay....this 'formalin and my child' bit is getting out of hand:lol:


Sorry again if my post offended you

 

[VSpeck]

yea i think we all agree that there are a ton of diffrent ways to keep our fish healthy. i dont use meds under any surcumstance and to me garlic is as wierd to me as broccoli and lettuce. also i dont qt and never have. i know the risks and all the what does qt cost compared to loss and all those ?'s . i do what works for me as everyone should.

The only time ive had loss was with new tanks if i rushed. i feel if you buy through good dealers and the fish is healthy you will be ok but thats a whole diffrent debate all im saying is do how it has always worked for you. if you are new to the hobby do what you think is right.

when i was new to the hobby i had a 75gal going for 2 yrs with no skimmer an emporer 400 with the biowheels and maybe 20 fish in there (a lot were damsels, they had room). it worked for ME it might not work for others but it did for me. if i would have tried hypo or copper i would have screw'd something up. i respect everyones opinions and thats great if meds work for you. we could have a million fights over this but lets keep it cool i like hearing experiences not what ifs which is why i started participating in this thread. well thats all i got so keep reefing and enjoy your fish

 

[Paul B]

This is a wierd thread. talking about dipping your kid in formalin :eek1: letting your fish die, etc. First of all let me say that these are fish. They are not our kids and they do not feel pain. Thats my educated opinion from 50 years of studying, disecting, spearing, spawning, raising, selling, swimming with, and eating. That is for another thread.
As for ich, luckilly it is the easiest infection in the animal kingdom to cure. You can feed garlic, use hypo or formalin if you like but if you want to cure it guaranteed in a couple of days use copper. Will it kill your fish? Hell yes, in the wrong dose as will chemotherapy nasalcrom or aspirins.
Does it affect their immune system or screw up their liver? I don't really know but all of my fish die of old age which is between 12 and 18 years old. Maybe if I never used copper they would have lived to 20.
As for experts having different opinions, I know some of the experts, some have come to my home, I don't think you will find one who will say copper will not cure a fish every time. If they do , they are wrong.
I am sure hypo will work eventually. But enough ich paracites will kill a fish in a couple of days. If I had paracites completely covering my skin, eyes and lungs would I want something to cure me tomorrow or would I rather try something that may work in two weeks?
I am finished ranting and I would like to say that my fish do not get ich, no matter how many ich infected fish I put in there for the last 20 years, they do not get it. I don't know why but I wish I did. My experience is from the first 15 years or so with my tank and the three aquarium stores I started with saltwater when the hobby started. One of them is over 40 years old and one of the largest in NYC.
If we could learn the secret why some tanks just do not get it it would be a great boon to this hobby.
Of course I meant no disrespect to anyone posting here I just felt like writing something :lol:
Have a great ich free day.
Paul

 

[scarter]

that was an interesting exchange...

 

[guyguerra]

I just got back from a much needed vacation. My wife and I did a cruise thru Jamaica and the Grand Caymans. We got to see plenty of fish in their natural habitat. I'm glad to see the thread still going, but it's so easy to get off topic when discussing Ich.

I had written in my first post that the intent of this thread was to find the results of reef tanks that do not allow for the removal of the fish when Ich was diagnosed. Let's please try to work on that specific topic. It will pay off in the long run. There are so many threads that meander on with all the debates of treatments, QT, types of fish, fallow tanks, salinity levels, medications etc. etc. etc. that any one who needs answers on other topics about Ich can easily find them. I asked this question and specifically wanted to address it to people that have had Ich in their tank, and did not have the option of removing them. I needed to know, and still want to delve into what the possible outcomes are for large tanks when the fish can not be pulled out for treatment. I wondered if all my fish would die. If some would die. Would the tank have to be torn down. By getting a consensus of people that have had this experience we might all prosper if someone, like myself, ends up in this situation. So far on this thread we have seen some informative statements about the results of those that could not remove their fish, and the treatments that they used (or did not use) to deal with it. It would be good to see even more people that have been in this situation so that we can have a broader basis to help those that run across this.

I made my first post on 4-10 that I had seen Ich in my 230 gallon display tank, and that there was no way to get the fish out of this tank. I saw the first spot about three days before the post, so that was April 7th. I have a good answer that I wrote to someone that felt that fish can be taken out of any tank, and would be glad to post it here if someone has never experienced a tank like this. My friends at the LFS also confirmed it was Ich. As a shot in the dark I used garlic, no sick fish and vitamins. The Ich disappeared quickly. Not all tanks are the same. I have a 57 watt UV, Ozone, a healthy cleaner wrasse, 3 healthy cleaner shrimp and a refugium. I also do 15% water changes weekly.

On 4-21 (11 days after seeing the Ich, and a week after seeing the last of it, granted, that is not very much time). I added a Sailfin tang that had been in my QT for 6 weeks. I was nervous, but my buddies at the LFS and I all agreed that my tank was very stable, and all of my fish were healthy so we moved the sailfin. I was nervous for several weeks. Nothing happened. The sailfin acclimated, and all the fish were spotless.

I had three more fish in my 50 gallon tank. You can refer to my post dated 5-12 above for details. I moved a Brown Tang, a Clown Wrasse and a Mystery Wrasse to the 230 immediately as they were dying. This was 5 weeks after seeing the Ich spots. I kept them in the fuge overnight. Then I had to go on the cruise. I got home yesterday morning and all the fish are perfect. No spots. Nothing died or looks sick. These fish were WEAK when I put them in the 230. Laying on their sides weak. Looking at the gills for movement weak. Yet, even in this, they did not come down with signs of Ich, and none of the others have either.

If I ran across a thread like this now, I would say that I have a tank that is an example of one that had Ich, and overcame it, or is healthy enough to not be affected by it. I had several people tell me to tear my tank down and fallow it for 8 weeks. I would have ended my association with this hobby if I had to do that. The amount of money I have in my tank is staggering, as much as the car most people drive. The hours of labor are close enough to cause some people to get divorced. To tear down a tank every time you see ich is to base your decision on partial information, or from those who haven't worked thru it.

 

[Paul B]

Guyguerra, you are not getting the answers you are looking for because there are too many variables. I also think there are too many types of paracites. For some reason in a newer tank the paracites have a much easier time overcoming the fish and you will lose everything very fast. There is theories of fish becomming immune but I can't tell if the fish are immune or the tank itself is.
There is also nothing I know of that you could put in a tank to kill ich without killing inverts. Paracites are inverts.
So I guess to answer your question as to who has a tank where ich was present and it went away. I do.
Sorry for the long post before.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[chocolates mom]

I am now approx 3 1/2 months without ich although my tank was exposed twice. (One in January and once in February ) Both times I added a coral beauty and both times they died. My clown perculas ended up covered in ich which disapearred in a couple of days and I haven't seen any signs of ich on them since Feb. Both of the coral beautys were given garlic and both had the cleaner shrimp on them and still died. I added a six-line over a month ago and no ich on him. I think they are immune to it.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7403857#post7403857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chocolates mom
I am now approx 3 1/2 months without ich although my tank was exposed twice. (One in January and once in February ) Both times I added a coral beauty and both times they died. My clown perculas ended up covered in ich which disapearred in a couple of days and I haven't seen any signs of ich on them since Feb. Both of the coral beautys were given garlic and both had the cleaner shrimp on them and still died. I added a six-line over a month ago and no ich on him. I think they are immune to it.

Wrasses are not immune, they are very resistant to ich but they can become infected..Only sharks and Rays are immune






P.S. PaulB.....I liked your post!:lol:

 

[Paul B]

Bttrflygrl, I liked your post too, I think waterbuffalo are also immune. :lol:

 

[chocolates mom]

i take that as an insult

 

[scarter]

are you talkin about my mom?

 

[guyguerra]

Paul, I belive I have gotten the answers I asked for, and I always appreciate your opinions and advice.

I have learned what I needed to and gotten my question answered well enough to be of assistance to me, but I have to point out the following. It is a clear example of the problems of trying to discus Ich in an organized venue, so that valuable information can be shared. Instead, the topic was lost many times, each deviation diluting the investigation of this topic. The topic was simple. HAVE YOU HAD ICH IN A TANK THAT YOU COULD NOT REMOVE THE FISH FROM AND IF SO, WHAT WAS THE OUTCOME. A very simple question. I didn't ask weather wrasses get ich more than something else. I didn't ask about fromalin dips, or the type of dealer you bought your fish from, nor did I ask if medications kill, or mixing medications, nor to debate weather medications are poisons, or the merits of copper over hyposalinity, or weather tangs were worse than clown fish, or diagnosing grounding problems, or how you would like to be treated if you were sick (referring to pulling the fish for treatment, which I already said was not an option), or assumptions that the fish are being improperly diagnosed, or a listing of all the causes of ich, yet each one of these replies have been posted to this thread, all of them completely unrelated to the topic. I even put polite notes up, trying to keep focused on this one specific question. It seemed like people saw the word Ich, and posted whatever was on their mind, without reading the topic. Thank God I didn't ask about politics!

I am happy and thankful to the people that did share their experiences and the outcomes, they were a great help in leading me in the right direction for my particular situation.

Guy

 

[asnatlas]

guyguerra, any Ich since your last post ??

 

[boxfishpooalot]

I do it all the time, infact I expect ich to come. I dont quarantine strong fish like tangs.

Only time my fish ever get ich is when parameters fluctuate wildly. Like a fast drop in salinity, rapid ph change, low alk-high alk, all accompanied by the addition of new fish/inverts/corals or snails.

Its inevitable without quarantine. But my point is, the fish only get it with chemical stress factors.

Whats interesting to me though, is fish like yellow tangs in the wild reef ive seen scratch in a coral reef video i got. So its not somthing limited to the aquarium. Perhaps rapid salinity changes from rainfall trigger ich in tangs on the reef. They are mostly shallow water species wich rain would effect down to 40meters depth. Ron Shimmik also pointed out salinity fluctuations on the reef too.

 

[maro1]

Bump

 

[Sk8r]

9 months since any appearance of ich, no treatment but garlic.

I'm sticking by my story that corals eat ich in its swimming stage.

 

[guyguerra]

I have not seen another outbreak since the one that I started this thread with in April.