Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

fishnugget,
your case is a prime example where swapping out that large return pump for something smaller would in fact reduce your problems. If you cut your overflow down to a 200-500gph pump, the water will slow down, mix in less bubbles, etc. You use the Tunze alone for in tank flow I bet, or use the Ampmaster on a closed loop. Ampmasters are great closed loop pumps...it makes better use of their high-flow design because it results in much more flow by removing the head pressure. Ampmasters have a bad head curve for what its worth...their flow is half at just 11 feet...for a 3000+gph pump this is on the light side. They are low-velocity, low wattage pumps (for their capacity) that are a waste of flow potential and wattage if used as sump return pumps.

 

[Timbor]

Hey Herbet,
For the eheim 1250, what are the dimensions of the actual pump itself? I've been convincing myself to get one instead of a mag, but I need to know if it will fit in my sump. My sump will be a 20high, so I will have 24" of length to fit in my skimmer, fuge, and return sections.

Tim

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pumps_eheim_universal_hobby_powerheads.asp?CartId=

marine depot posts specs for everything...gotta love it!

 

[Fursphere]

Don't trust ANY of the power ratings until you put an ampmeter on one yourself though.

 

[Timbor]

Thanks a million... I found a place that sells the 1250 for about $110cdn, so thats a bit more reasonable.

Tim

 

[RGibson]

Fursphere the power ratings on German built pumps all ways show much low watts then thay used. I have one pump that builder has at 60 watts but it used 90 watts.Japon built pumps the watts allways chech out the same.

 

[Fursphere]

Well...

My Dolphin Ampmaster 3000 is rated at 150 watts, where it uses closer to 175. (I emailed Dolphin about this a few times... guess what I got back? Not a word.... its like they are in denile about it)

My (2) Dolphin skimmer pumps on my EuroReef CS12-2 are rated at 70 watts, and they only use 45 watts.

It goes both ways, just rarely in your favor.

 

[kimoyo]

Hmm, why no PanWorld pumps on the Head Loss calculator:

http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

Panworlds are the blueline hd series pumps.

 

[bond007069]

Hey help me find a place in my heart for this theory

Currently temp 78-80 f
2x 250 MH
440 watts VHO
submersible heater on a couple times per hour 200 watt.
in AC basement
bathroom fans on when MH on.

Ok with a 120 AGA dual overflow what pump do you recommend

I have an in sump MRC Mr-2 on a PCX 40 with 110 watts consumption.

Currently a T4 velocity with two penductors consumption of 140 watts.

What can i do?

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

I would rip out one of the overflows...one is enough. A pump that does about 200-300gph...eheim 1250 again, or a velocity T1 or 2. But what will you use to make current in the tank? Powerheads, Streams, or a closed loop? I cant tell from your listing how everything is used, but I hope your T4 isnt the sump pump and on the penductor line...

 

[euroreef]

Just read this thread for the first time... At least there are few others that have figured this out. I have been building systems like this since the early 90's. In the mid 80's I was using 2 Iwaki 100's to run a 180!! Spray bars, directional spa jets etc etc.... After traveling to Euroope and seeing so many amazing reefs, NONE of which were using crazy system pumps like here in the US, it just made sense... on so many different levels. None of the least of which is the fact that I didn't have to install any more of those crappy GF Y check valves!!

Good on ya Herbert!!

 

[NexDog]

I would rip out one of the overflows...one is enough. A pump that does about 200-300gph...eheim 1250 again, or a velocity T1 or 2. But what will you use to make current in the tank? Powerheads, Streams, or a closed loop? I cant tell from your listing how everything is used, but I hope your T4 isnt the sump pump and on the penductor line...

Well, two overflows is good for redundancy in case one of the overflows got clogged....

Based on this thread I'm not going to put huge flow through the sump but base it on what the skimmer needs. The skimmer will need 600-700gph so I think I'll need to be putting at least 1000gph through but this isn't huge by any means as I see some people running Sequence Hammerheads as return pumps....

 

[bond007069]

How much flow does a Becket skimmer need?
MR-2 single becket

Yes my T4 is my return with dual penductor, i get decent flow.

Man Streams cost 850 dollars for the two i want and a 7095 controller.......that is crazy......

why not have a pressure return pump with eductors, cost is 50.00 for eductors, 250 for pump, 50 plumbing= 350.00
with about 200 watts.

if i have to ADD watts to my tank to keep the temp up, going with a dinky Eheim at 200 GPH, anint gona cut it.

I am still going to spend money on a 200 watt heater kicking on every hour 24/7, why not make that heater double as my return pump and give my tank some flow......

the only thing i find novel about this theory right now is decreasing microbubbles!!!

Maybe my situation is different, due to house AC and location, climate, ohio.

peace

 

[ssbreef]

ssbreef, thanks for the info. I am curious>> Macros seem to like strong flow. They grow faster, prolly because they are able to absorb more then. I am curious if you have any extra circulation in the fuge itself to suppliment the low throughput, or if you leave it as is.

It has been my one concern through all this 'low-flow' reworking that I do not restrict the effectiveness of someones refugium by limiting the flow to this type of filtration which many suggest should get 10-20x the tanks volume in turnover. Is it simply the current that makes the macro happy?, in which case adding a powerhead into the refugium would do...or is there actually a nutrient exporting level that needs a higher tank turnover to be effective?

This I did not know, I have had no problems with my macros even with the limited flow, they seem to grow very well.

Why would they need a higher tank turnover to be effective?

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

NexDog, how big of a skimmer do you have to need an actual throughput of that much? Is that just the pump that drives it? You know you dont have to keep supplying the skimmer with fresh water...it can recirculate...(some companies make skimmers that do that on purpose...LOL). You can have a beckett with a pump that does 1000gph and only 100gph going through the sump, its not like a skimmer cleans the water 100% each pass, or even a decent fraction of it. If this is for the 120g you talk about...go back and reread the first couple pages...you'll get the idea. And if you seriously think that using high wattage pumps and giving them alot of headpressure is a good way to heat the tank...wow. As if a heater on a thermostat isnt a more effective applicatioj of wattage...I mean, pumps are designed to vent to the outside...not the water. If you are using the pump to heat you should use a submersable.

oh, and bond, you are wasting energy...thats the point of this thread. Imagine how much more your T4 would pump w/o the head pressure. T4s arent high pressure pumps...the T3s are, and you are prolly wasting half the potential output of the pump and its wattage. Imagine using just a 200gph pump for your sump, more than enough for any skimmer to be fed, and then using the full force of that T4 on a closed loop...with or without penductors you are going to get a load of flow back.

Could you guys go back and reread this thread a bit...this thread is just starting to repeat itself. The point is to use high flow where you need it, and use the watts you use most effectively. Example from earlier in the thread. A 125g with over 5000gph of current at any given time with less than 100 watts. You use a small return pump, just enough to keep the skimmer fed (no, not the skimmer's pump rating, prolly 1/4 or less than that). C'mon guys, go back and read...this has all been covered before.

 

[NexDog]

Herbert when we were taking about recirculating skimmers before you saw the skimmers and saw the specs required a pump that provided 1 to 1.5 the system volume. I decided on a EuroReef beast (well almost decided) - the CS12-3-RC rated for a 500g. I have 400 gallons system volume so it seems prudent to oversize slightly. Therefore I'm thinking about 500-600gph pump like a Eheim 1260 or Iwaki MD20RLXT......

 

[bond007069]

Dude i am just trying to bounce ideas off you... this is your thread.

I lot of stuff makes sense....... do you still have a heater in your tank, sucking up watts?

 

[RGibson]

bond007069 what tem is the room you keep your reef tank in ?

 

[bond007069]

in AC basement, 75-76 degress F

940 watts of light, two small fans on for 6 hours a day.

tank temp 78 to 80.3 F

 

[bond007069]

ok i am going to experiment.

I have a rio 2100 3/4 pump on a SCWD (had this pump and the T4 as returns). I am taking the T4 off line, shutting it down. It was rated at 850 GPH with my head.

I have two Maxi Jets in tank, they have been there.

The rio 2100 is rated at a max of 233 Ghp (45 WATTS) with 5 feet head. But i also have a SCWD on it, i would guess i am like 100 GHP.

So i will do this for a day or so, check pH, temp, skimmer efficiency ( i just cleaned collection cup), coral and fish responses. These will be my dependant variables.

I will report back. I know if i did this method, i would need, CL (probably use my T4 or get a pressure rated 55 RLT ( 180 watts) and SEIO or TUNZE in the future, but this is just a short term test.

Thanks, i love new ideas!!