Herbert T. Kornfeld
In Memoriam
Ah, well eheims arent good head performers, so I wouldnt bother with a 1260 either. I think a blueline velocity T1 would be great however.
Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?
- Thread starter Herbert T. Kornfeld
- Start date
Herbert T. Kornfeld
In Memoriam
Depends on the tank's volume...care to tell us? Otherwise, from the two tank of the month examples I gave, you can see that on a 300gallon, 100gph going through the overflow seems to be fine. I would say that as long as you have enough flow to keep your surface clean & clear of surface scum, thats all you need. On a 125 by my cuz, a small eheim makes about 150-200gph go through the overflow...and that is just enough.
Herbert T. Kornfeld
In Memoriam
sure, the minimum flow needed to prevent surface scum, as well as enough to feed any skimmer/refugium you might have. Sometimes you might need to have a certain throughput on a skimmer otherwise you might be limiting its performance. This amount may not be that high. The deltec on DNA's setup has a throughput of only 100gph...and the pumps do somewhere between 600-1200gph of recirculation style skimming. A refugium might need more flow, as caulerpas and macros do better with more flow...however a recirculating pump or powerhead might be all the flow one needs to keep the macros happy while the actual throughput stays at only a few hundred gph.
As for my tanks, I make them with either the sump built into the tank (using a fake wall+overflow to section off part of the tank and stick everything in there), or with the sump in a cabinet next to the tank, so minimal head pressure is on the sump's pump. If I have the in tank sump, a good efficient pump like an eheim goes in there for flow...as head pressure isnt a real issue. If the tank does have a sump, its flow through is minimal. I make the tank circulate with low-wattage, low-head, high flow pumps and powerheads on closed loops. No sumps with 4+ feet of head pressure, no basement sumps (maybe the room next door or in the closet, but not on another floor).
As for lighting, the best bang for the buck is halide. Although T5 has been used with good results and does have its appeal and applications, myself and others have experimented with the two types side by side and noticed that corals just seem to like halide's complete spectrum better. To minimize heat, and the need for cooling with a chiller, open top canopies are key. Hanging a halide pendant over an open body of water allows for better ventilation and cooling of the light bulb than most any other setup. Rather than a cover, if you have jumping critters, use a 'collar' to go around the parimeter of the tank so that any jumpers will be left to jump, or bump up on a side wall. Making the most of your lighting is key. The most effective use of a halide is with a wide, deep, and shallow tank. A single 250wattDE bulb can be used over a 3'x3' area as long as the pendant is hung high enough and the water is kept about 14". This might not appeal to everyone, but I tend to like the 'lowboy' look. Theres nothing cooler than being able to look down on those dazzling ultra clams that you otherwise wouldnt be able to with say...a 180g. Thats about it. Just use the electricity wisely. Lights, circulation, oh, and heating. Some tanks dont need much help in this category, but if you live in cooler climates where your room temps might go low when the lights are off, and you heater actually gets use, you might want to consider one of those low-voltage heaters that sits under the tank. A small 50watt model can heat about 100gallons because of its excellent radiant coverage.
As for my tanks, I make them with either the sump built into the tank (using a fake wall+overflow to section off part of the tank and stick everything in there), or with the sump in a cabinet next to the tank, so minimal head pressure is on the sump's pump. If I have the in tank sump, a good efficient pump like an eheim goes in there for flow...as head pressure isnt a real issue. If the tank does have a sump, its flow through is minimal. I make the tank circulate with low-wattage, low-head, high flow pumps and powerheads on closed loops. No sumps with 4+ feet of head pressure, no basement sumps (maybe the room next door or in the closet, but not on another floor).
As for lighting, the best bang for the buck is halide. Although T5 has been used with good results and does have its appeal and applications, myself and others have experimented with the two types side by side and noticed that corals just seem to like halide's complete spectrum better. To minimize heat, and the need for cooling with a chiller, open top canopies are key. Hanging a halide pendant over an open body of water allows for better ventilation and cooling of the light bulb than most any other setup. Rather than a cover, if you have jumping critters, use a 'collar' to go around the parimeter of the tank so that any jumpers will be left to jump, or bump up on a side wall. Making the most of your lighting is key. The most effective use of a halide is with a wide, deep, and shallow tank. A single 250wattDE bulb can be used over a 3'x3' area as long as the pendant is hung high enough and the water is kept about 14". This might not appeal to everyone, but I tend to like the 'lowboy' look. Theres nothing cooler than being able to look down on those dazzling ultra clams that you otherwise wouldnt be able to with say...a 180g. Thats about it. Just use the electricity wisely. Lights, circulation, oh, and heating. Some tanks dont need much help in this category, but if you live in cooler climates where your room temps might go low when the lights are off, and you heater actually gets use, you might want to consider one of those low-voltage heaters that sits under the tank. A small 50watt model can heat about 100gallons because of its excellent radiant coverage.
Herbert, well summarized. Thanks for the info.
I will try to make some changes to my pump this weekend. Currently, my water level is reaching the top of the overflow tooth even after I cut out every other tooth. I estimate about 2000gal per hour going into the 1.5inch durso pipe. Even with this kind of flow, I still see a layer of oil on the surface of the water furthest away from the overflow. This is exactly what you have described at the beginning of the thread.
I suspect that not the top layer of the water is getting skimmed into the overflow, but the top 1/2 inch of water, so the surface layer stay stagnant.
I will try to make some changes to my pump this weekend. Currently, my water level is reaching the top of the overflow tooth even after I cut out every other tooth. I estimate about 2000gal per hour going into the 1.5inch durso pipe. Even with this kind of flow, I still see a layer of oil on the surface of the water furthest away from the overflow. This is exactly what you have described at the beginning of the thread.
I suspect that not the top layer of the water is getting skimmed into the overflow, but the top 1/2 inch of water, so the surface layer stay stagnant.
Herbert T. Kornfeld
In Memoriam
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_heaters__index.asp?ast=overture&key=
Tunze and Hydor have models shown above. They are commonly sold for planted tanks, but can be used for reefs as well. There are also many made that sit out of the tank all together...below it. I havent had a big need for these however... I tested my setup by disconnecting the heater for a few days and watching the temps flux. I use refugiums, and the refugium lights helped keep the water warm at night. I found a 2degree flux from night and day. My halides arent enough to cook the water or make me need a heater, but they are enough to keep the tank warm it seems. I wouldnt place heating as a major source of wasted energy in my book. Im curious as to what tank would need 3x350watt heaters. I mean, most heaters on a reef seem to get minimal use because they get so much help. And even a that, because of thermostats, they are really only on for the portion of time that they are really needed.
Tunze and Hydor have models shown above. They are commonly sold for planted tanks, but can be used for reefs as well. There are also many made that sit out of the tank all together...below it. I havent had a big need for these however... I tested my setup by disconnecting the heater for a few days and watching the temps flux. I use refugiums, and the refugium lights helped keep the water warm at night. I found a 2degree flux from night and day. My halides arent enough to cook the water or make me need a heater, but they are enough to keep the tank warm it seems. I wouldnt place heating as a major source of wasted energy in my book. Im curious as to what tank would need 3x350watt heaters. I mean, most heaters on a reef seem to get minimal use because they get so much help. And even a that, because of thermostats, they are really only on for the portion of time that they are really needed.
law086
Premium Member
Herbert - great thread. I've always had similar thoughts on return pumps. I have a basement sump and I was worried that I'd end up with a super high-head pump that ate up tons of power. I also had to drill holes in my wall and limited myself to 3/4 plumbing. I ended up with a Mag18 (biggest 3/4" Mag) pushing about 8 feet of head in my 180. Works really well. For extra circulation, I use two SEIO 1100s. I have a mostly softy and LPS tank and I feel like I have almost too much water movement as the softies are really blown around.
Ron
Ron
Thanks HTK,
I misread your post, I though you were using one of those hot water on demand (under sink)water heaters. I have been wondering if those would work and I read it into your post. I am going to try the substrate heater.
My tank is set up with a 150 gallon reef in one room and 3x 40 gallon tanks plumbed together in the garage set up in serial. I have 3x 250 watt heaters (I mistyped 350). The entire water movement between tanks is powered by a single rio2100 with approx 5 feet of head pressure (25w approx 300gph). I have a DIY gravity-fed recirculating skimmer that gets 100% of the flow. The main tank has a tunze stream and a wavebox. The tank has been set up this way for over a year and the only complaint I have is the low flow leads to the accumulation of detritus in the main tank instead of the sump. It all settles in an area directly under the tunze wavebox where it gently rocks back and forth until I can siphon it out. I was thinking of increasing the flow to the main tank but now with this thread I am reconsidering.
I misread your post, I though you were using one of those hot water on demand (under sink)water heaters. I have been wondering if those would work and I read it into your post. I am going to try the substrate heater.
My tank is set up with a 150 gallon reef in one room and 3x 40 gallon tanks plumbed together in the garage set up in serial. I have 3x 250 watt heaters (I mistyped 350). The entire water movement between tanks is powered by a single rio2100 with approx 5 feet of head pressure (25w approx 300gph). I have a DIY gravity-fed recirculating skimmer that gets 100% of the flow. The main tank has a tunze stream and a wavebox. The tank has been set up this way for over a year and the only complaint I have is the low flow leads to the accumulation of detritus in the main tank instead of the sump. It all settles in an area directly under the tunze wavebox where it gently rocks back and forth until I can siphon it out. I was thinking of increasing the flow to the main tank but now with this thread I am reconsidering.
I used 2 penductors one at each end of a 6 foot long 180 gal tank on a close loop with a Iwaki MD55RLT pump.The penductors are good for water moverment and allso move the water to the overflows. I am going to change the return pump from a iwaki md55rlt to eheim 1260.Have turn down the flow from the iwaki 55 to the same flow as the eheim 1260 and it works well and the skimmer waste has increase. This will cut the ele by 91 watts and take some heat off the AC.
The high flow rates got started because of the need of more water flow in the main tank,and to used a bigger pump for the return was a way to do it.Now with penductors and tunze streams a large return pump is not needed-Herbert you started a good thread ,thank you for it.-----------------------------------
old95er
Premium Member
Titanium
Titanium
The last word on pumps is Titanium.
I think that the blueline is now called Poseidon(available at Marine Depot); when they say quiet, they mean silent. . .less than 30DB! And the heat issue is not what I have read on this site. . .They make several that range from $146 for the 540GPH @ 3ft to $159 for 1225 gph.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pumps_poseidon.asp?CartId=
I have the T1(or PS1) for the return on my Ecosystem sump and CPR90 overflow. I do have to dail the valves a little to compensate for the 100gph difference between the pump and the overflow. You cannot tell that it is running, until you look in the tank and see the flow.
I am just setting up a 50 gallon with the same sump and overflow for filtering, and I will be gettign the PS3 for the additional closed loop circulation system that will be slipt through a SCWD.
THere is nothing in my mind that beats this pump in silence. Who wants to hear a pump when chililn by the reef?
Titanium
The last word on pumps is Titanium.
I think that the blueline is now called Poseidon(available at Marine Depot); when they say quiet, they mean silent. . .less than 30DB! And the heat issue is not what I have read on this site. . .They make several that range from $146 for the 540GPH @ 3ft to $159 for 1225 gph.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pumps_poseidon.asp?CartId=
I have the T1(or PS1) for the return on my Ecosystem sump and CPR90 overflow. I do have to dail the valves a little to compensate for the 100gph difference between the pump and the overflow. You cannot tell that it is running, until you look in the tank and see the flow.
I am just setting up a 50 gallon with the same sump and overflow for filtering, and I will be gettign the PS3 for the additional closed loop circulation system that will be slipt through a SCWD.
THere is nothing in my mind that beats this pump in silence. Who wants to hear a pump when chililn by the reef?
Herbert T. Kornfeld
In Memoriam
I can name a pump that beats all in silence...eheim. Although you are correct old95er, the Velocity Ti series is as good as it gets besides an eheim, and eheim doesnt make the same type of pumps as the Ti series...they are all pretty much flow pumps with a max of 1100gph (eheim 1264)...so if you are in need of either a higher pressure pump (t1 and t3) or higher flow (T4), the Velocity pumps are hard to pass up. Combine this with their decent pricing and they are perhaps the best all around deal. I still have to get more input on what some of the best high-flow pumps are, but the sequence pumps seem to be the winner here. They seems to have decent wattage requirements for their flow, and high outputs. I need input on noise and heat generation however.
This thread is a godsend - many thanks!
If you don't mind my picking some brains, I could do with some input on a system I'm working out. It's a 250g in-wall with dual 1" overflows (redundancy and safety a key factor). I'd like to drain both overflows direct into a skimmer just like DNA's tanks. To me this sounds the best way to achieve maximum protein/waste removal. Euroreef do a line of Recirculating skimmers now:
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_protein_skimmers_euro-reef_cs_rc_sedra.asp?CartId=
The CS8-4-RC is rated for a 250 gallon system. The pump I'm contemplating is a PanWorld 50PX rated at 590GPH. I plan on running the return through a chiller to the tank. My question:
With 4' head loss and friction loss running through the chiller, how much is flowing out the overflows and will feed that skimmer or am I going to overskim like crazy?
My sump (65g) will be [Fuge][Reactor Powerheads][Return].
Skimmer output will flow into the fuge area, baffles to mid compartment containing powerheads to power calcium and phosphate reactors and baffles to return area.
Have I missed anything out?
If you don't mind my picking some brains, I could do with some input on a system I'm working out. It's a 250g in-wall with dual 1" overflows (redundancy and safety a key factor). I'd like to drain both overflows direct into a skimmer just like DNA's tanks. To me this sounds the best way to achieve maximum protein/waste removal. Euroreef do a line of Recirculating skimmers now:
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_protein_skimmers_euro-reef_cs_rc_sedra.asp?CartId=
The CS8-4-RC is rated for a 250 gallon system. The pump I'm contemplating is a PanWorld 50PX rated at 590GPH. I plan on running the return through a chiller to the tank. My question:
With 4' head loss and friction loss running through the chiller, how much is flowing out the overflows and will feed that skimmer or am I going to overskim like crazy?
My sump (65g) will be [Fuge][Reactor Powerheads][Return].
Skimmer output will flow into the fuge area, baffles to mid compartment containing powerheads to power calcium and phosphate reactors and baffles to return area.
Have I missed anything out?
Timbor
New member
Here's another question for you, Herbert:
I'm trying to figure out what return pump to go with. I'm setting up a 35 gallon, with a 20gal sump/refugium. I was thinking of going with a mag5 for the return. Plumbing will be a simple return straight to the tank... I figure the tank isnt big enough to bother with anything too complex. The water will be lifted about 3 feet to the tank... the calculator rated the mag5 at about 300gph.
Do you think this would be adequate? I will also have some powerheads for circulation in the main tank.
Thanks,
Tim
I'm trying to figure out what return pump to go with. I'm setting up a 35 gallon, with a 20gal sump/refugium. I was thinking of going with a mag5 for the return. Plumbing will be a simple return straight to the tank... I figure the tank isnt big enough to bother with anything too complex. The water will be lifted about 3 feet to the tank... the calculator rated the mag5 at about 300gph.
Do you think this would be adequate? I will also have some powerheads for circulation in the main tank.
Thanks,
Tim
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