Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

This has been a great thread. I am still building the stand for my tank and don't have the plumbing solidified yet. I do have many pumps on hand from my many other tanks over the years.

I like the low flow idea through the sump for several reasons that have been stated. I will start with about 200 gph through the sump on my 60 gal and see how that works.

I have built the overflow box much larger than I need because I was planning on putting a pump or power head in it for more flow. Like a closed loop without the holes in the tank. So I have plenty of room to put multiple sub pumps in it and get the required flow in the tank.

Thanks for the intelligence in this thread.


I think I can answer the original question that was possed.

Back when aquariums were started a certain amount of flow was needed to keep the fish and plants alive properly. This roughly equated to 10 times the tank volume. So it was a good rule of thumb. Then when marine tanks started being kept the same rule of thumb was used there.

Eventually reef tanks came about and again it was carried over. Of course the bigger the tank the more power was needed to maintain this. Then with SPS the flow had to increase dramatically. So the first thought was to increase flow through the sump since that is where the pumps are.

No one really thought about it in the way you have. That all that needed flow for the animals does not have to go through the filter. You may need that in the tank but not the filter/sump.

I learn more on RC than anywhere else.

One of these days we'll all be able to get it right the first time! Well, maybe not. Making mistakes is what keeps it fun right?
 
Please what?

Nobody said that other tank chores are not time consuming. This is no way means that the additional task of buying, cleanining and changing airstones IS ANY NOT time consuming or costly.

I surely did not comment for the sake of arguement and your post surely does not negate any of the hassles of airstones. They cost money and need to be changed frequently. If you DIY airstones, you can not make them in advance and they are labor intensive and time consuming to build. You need to source materials etc. It should also be noted that air pumps are high maintenance items as compared to water pumps or venturis. Manyg air pumps are also rather noisy.

My point was simple... I myself would rather use a venturi type CC skimmer for the simple reason that it is one less thing to deal with. They are almost as efficient and don't require as much maintenance. My reasoning may not apply to other users, it is a matter of personal preference. I do think that a tall CC airstone skimmer is likely the most efficient design in terms of energy consumption and hardware cost.
 
Hi Herbert,

It's 12"w x 6"d x 23.5" tall. It has a 2" bulkhead fitting so I have more room than I need for the pumps in it. I already tried an old Rio pump I have from my last tank and it fits with room to spare.

I figure I can put a standpipe in it so the water level in the box is within about 3" or 4" of the top of the box. That way the pumps stay covered and I shouldn't have a lot of splashing. The sides of the box are slightly angled, the box is slightly smaller at the bottom than the top. That way the water should slide down the glas and not pour over it and crash down like a water fall.

Yes it is a little bigger than I had originally planned. I will have the pumps in side it on time delay relays so if the power goes off and comes back on they won't start until the main pump has refilled the tank from the sump.

The guy I had build the tank for me really didn't follw my directions very well as to what I wanted so I am stuck with this oversized box.

Next time I have a tank built I won't say anything about what my plans are and give the dimensions I want. Lesson learned.

You have a great idea here and I am glad you thought of it because after 30 years keeping aqauriums I still hadn't thought of it!

Any more of your great ideas you have to share let me know!!!

Have a good one.
 
not ruffled at all...

I have never had a tank that big... BUT have seen plenty of CC skimmers on tanks that big. I may be wrong, but I think the skimmers at our local zoo are CC. A 7' tall with 6" or 8" diameter CC skimmer would likely do the job. I am not a fan of the becket style skimmers simply due to their huge power and flow requirements. I did a lot of skimmer research over the last year or two in preperation for my DIY skimmer project (on hold).

Why spend all your small return pump savings on a large skimmer pump?

Bean
 
I hadn't planned to have ANY skimmer pump. Rather one of the overflow lines going into the skimmer and then into the sump.

Any links on the CC skimmers? I am really interested in exploring all options before I do the DIY because there is a cost(time) benefit issue. How much time I put into a project vs. how much I can spend to save the time.

Case in point: To controll all the equipment for this tank, I need the Aquacontroller III Pro with 3 Heavy Duty DC4's and various accessories. The quote is $1,600, which is quite a bit more than I had projected, but I need certain features that are only found on that unit, and I am running 1000W MH lamps so I need the DC4's which are about $150 each. Good thing I am well stocked on BP medication! Maybe someone here can slap some sense into me?

Question for you brainiacs: Everywhere I read about how much thick, dark gunk various skimmers pull out and that is the primary reference for whether a skimmer is working well or not. The problem I see with that is many things change that effectives, as we all know, but what about the good stuff being removed? Do zooplankton fall victim to good skimmers? What about beneficial bacteria?

I am running a small tank with about 200lbs. of rock and various rock dwelling creatures. I have a simple Prizm on that tank and regardless of what critics may say, it works quite well. I wll be using it on my QT. When I first started it up, it immediately started skimming out thick dark stuff. I was amazed. Now, 4 weeks later, it doesn't get much out. There is a low bio-load so that's part of it, and changes in salinity also affect it. I also have an old HOB that I use if any parameters spike and a water change doesn't help enough. I may drop in phosphate or nitrate reducers, etc. and when I turn it on, the skimmer "efficiency" drops to nearly zero. Essentially it pulls out green/brown water at a very slow rate. Because I am just keeping rock alive, this tank has given me the ability to play around with the skimmer and water parameters to see what happens to the effluent.

I think with a reef tank system there really is no need for these giant power hogging skimmers, especially if you add livestock slowly and take care of your tank. Once the skimmer has removed the excess crud, it's got a very marginal maintainance load. I remember when I was a kid and walked the Northern California beaches with my Grandpa, I was always interested in the foam that would develop at times along the shore. It wasn't white, but more of a brown color, and the color was distinctly NOT uniform. Seems to me that is nature's skimmer. Created by the waves which produces a long contact time with air bubbles, that foam built up and deposited waste on the beach. The "brown" line I called it, where whether the sand was wet or dry, there was an area of brown residue. Thing is, it wasn't there most of the time.
 
jnarowe,
I have heard many claims that skimmers do not effect plankton...by reefers, as well as by claims made by certain companies that make skimmers. But I have a hard time believing it. Every time I dose some sort of phyto food, DTs or KENT phytoplex, chromaplex, zooplex, microvert food...I end up with a collection cup frothing with green in the next few hours. And heres an interesting one. I used salifert Exit the other day on my red flatworm population, and little red bodies were splattering up in my collection cup. Now if my skimmer can collect flatworm bodies...

Maybe its the type of skimmer, because in my other DIY skimmer, things are a little more gentle in the main chamber, and so maybe plankton has the chance to swim away. In the skimmer above, I am packing a large pump on a small body, and made it recirculating to minimize bubbles that get out..thats how violent the skimmer's chamber is. It skims like a champ, but maybe the plankton dont have the chance to get away because the turbulence in the chamber is too much and they get forced to the surface.

Beyond creatures, I know that there are many chamicals that react and are removed by skimmers as well...like iodine. So in theory, overskimming is possible...which may or not be a big deal...it depends on the type of reef.

In my book. There are two types of reef. The super sterile SPS/LPS and maybe clam tank...and the mucky, hasnt been cleaned and has phosphates all over softie tank. The mucky tank might have a small skimmer on it, but does best on a refugium alone. Xenia, GSP, shrooms, rics, etc, grow very well in this type of tank because they like all the organics in the water. Every time I try sticking Xenia or GSP into a well-skimmed tank it just shrivels up and dies...but in the well lit organic-laden tank, it grows like a weed. Then there is the sterile, skimmed overtime, nitrates and phosphates are 0 all the time tank. SPS grow an inch or two a month, and things like a refugium do little. The water is kept as stripped of anything but salt and a few trace elements as possible.

Keep this in mind when you are determining if you can overskim. I think its relative to the tank's inhabitants.
 
HTK: All good points and exactly what I think about skimmers and their role in the reef. The math is simple. Those SPS grow close to the surface where water movement is high, and therefore natural skimming is high.

I don't want a sterile reef. I am a scuba diver, and had a stroke. I probably will never be able to dive again. I want a slice of reality reef, not Picasso reef. I want to use a high volume, gravity fed skimmer. Mostly because I plan to introduce pods, and grow micro foods, brine shrimp, etc. I will have high flow jets near the surface on a wave timer and 1000W MH lamps. I should be able to grow a few hardy SPS near the surface, and have a variety of other coral etc. lower down. My main concern is that I love clams, so how do I deal with that? I am planning to try building sand shelves about 18" below the surface close enough to the viewing pane to appreciate clams. I haven't quite figured it out, but I think a shelf under a lamp, sloping downward starting at 12" and ending up around 18" closest to the glass would work OK. Giving it a bot of a tilt would benefit viewing and give the clam some light intensity choice. Advice?

What I enjoy most about the tanks I already have, is how freaking simple a fish's day is. They look for food all day long. I have a large goldfish that is the best gravel sifter ever. He has a 3 second memory and constantly sifts the gravel for food. I have a balance of bottom, middle, and surface fish and they work well together.

In my reef, I will have very bright surface areas and dark lower areas, and as much culivated food as I can deal with. I don't want that all going in the trash! I remember my Dad's buddies when I was a kid. They had no halides, no skimmers, no chillers...it was really rough back then. I'll never forget one guy's chiller built out of a small refrigerator. We have great advantages, but technology can be an Achilles heal too.

As far as the tank's inhabitants, I totally agree. Many people see a cool looking fish or invert and pop it in their tank. That's a recipe for disaster. I will be using MI rock, and will try to simulate those water conditions as near as possible, and stock with inhabitants that are local to MI. It's a place I have never dived at. Origin of species is more important than anyone really thinks. The saying, "Location, Location, Location" is very appropriate in designing a reef tank. I don't really care about some $1,000 fish that nobody else has until they are everywhere. I care about having a good symbiotic system. The most interesting thing about a reef is not the fish, but in fact, the micro-world that keeps a reef growing.
 
I wouldnt worry about clams. FWIW, I have found them to prefer the 'mucky' tank, as long as its well lit, to the sterile SPS type tank. They are ammonia and nitrate whores. They dont mind the muck at all. I would even go so far as to say I think they prefer the more organic infested water.
 
The snailmans skimmer links on the DIY section of the RC homepage are great. There is a lot of info packed into those pages.

Bean
 
Thanks Bean. I have looked over those closely and plan to do one very similar. The only major issue is that his are just not big enough for this tank. I tried to contact him about larger ones but did not get a response. I think I can do it anyway, but I may use a square lower chamber.--J
 
Clams on the bottom of a 3' tank? Better be using 1000watt halides for that. I am setting up a 36" cube tank with a 1000watter because I feel its one of the only lights that will allow me to put croceas on the bottom.

Ok, maybe just croceas would need that much light, but if you had them you could always place them up higher in the rockwork. Maximas can go higher in the rockwork as well. The only ones that wouldnt be able to be put so high in the rockwork would be deresa and squamosa types, gigas too. But they dont need as much light, so they should be fine. Clams in general should be fine in your tank...just put the light lovers in the rockwork.
 
Not energy star? Are you kidding me? LOL. Its a beast, but...

Lets do math. A 36" cube is 200g BTW. Now, the closest thing (to a single 1000watter) you might be able to run a 200g with if it were spread out would be 3x250wattDE bulbs...although I think most would use 3x400watters. Heck, I get to light a 200g reef with the wattage that some use to light just a 125g (a 250wattHQI is really more like 320-350watts a piece, so 1000watts is about right).

The other thing I like is that the ballast is HQI, and must have a 220v line dedicated to it. This is a slight inconvenience, I would run a seperate line for that much wattage in 110 anyways because of the draw on the circuit. Its that draw that kills ya in the pocketbook. A 300watt bulb costs you as much as a 600. With a 220v line, the line can handle the current easily, and I will prolly pay less than if I had a 110v line with three 250wattHQIs on it. I would prolly have to run three seperate circuits in 110 to keep the draw down otherwise.

The 36" cube has 9 sq. ft. of space to aquascape, and all that intensity from just one source could be nice for some corals.

After seeing the stores in atlanta that use a single 1000watt 20,000K bulb to light their 6'x4'x14" acrylic vats, I was convinced. I hear that 1000watters are a coral farmer secret, and that the 20,000Ks are among the best coral growing/coloring bulbs available. Their outputs are higher than the 10,000Ks at the same wattage. I didnt believe it, but even as we get into the 400watt range, we start to see bluer bulbs with outputs that beat many 10,000Ks. So if we jack up that wattage even higher, I can believe that a 1000watt 20,000K might have the same if not better output than a 10,000K.

I am trying to get Sanjay to test it for me...but he needs a 220v line.
 
I hate to burst your bubble but a 1000 watt draw on a 220v circuit costs exactly the same to run as a 1000 watt draw on a 110v circuit.

Which weighs more, 1000 pounds of feathers or 1000 pounds of bricks?
 
1000W is a lot of electricity. A 3' deep tank is pretty tough. Not much you can do. That is about the only way you are going to get light down that deep.

FWIW, I light a 90G with 324W of T5. The typical MH setup for a 4' tank is 2 x 250 MH + 2 x 100 VHO for ~ 700W. Twice the power.
 
dpstrand
Except when you have such a large draw on one line...it becomes harder for that line to pump the juice, and you end up paying more. I know of a few people who cut down their bill simply by adding seperate circuits.
 
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