Why do we attack eachother on prices?

[kichimark]

I have noticed many reefers attack or question other reefers decisions on purchasing "high end" zoanthids during my stay here on RC. Now I am not saying it is right to sell 100+ per polyp and I would not even do that myself but a business or person does have the right to do it. What I am seeing is an alienation of fellow reefers who have the expensive polyps and those that do not. This can be done by either questioning them or even saying THEY are the problem. This can lead to many reefers who have valuable knowledge or input to not even post or visit here anymore.

If somebody has the income to dispose on a few corals why not? do we ourselves not do this in reality when it comes to food? homes? cars? entertainment? Everything in price is going up. How would you feel if someone were to say you should not buy that because it is wrong and fuels the price gouging on whatever it may be?

It is many reefers who buy these expensive corals at first that end up trading or SELLING them cheaper later on. Where is the problem with that? Sure there are some who sell at the same price and might even sell higher. Again its up to them and honestly I wouldn't buy and neither would another experienced reefer.

I am sad to say it but the days of every zoanthid being cheap are gone and many of you know this. This division of those now who can have/do not have is annoying. We are here to share knowledge on how to keep/raise/grow these beautiful creations.

 

[Jacwil]

This topic has been dredged over so much lately...starting another thread o the matter will not help matters.

 

[650-IS350]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I haven't seen any attacks. I just see people stating their opinions pro or con on a topic.

 

[Jacwil]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.

Let's see how this turns out.....I imagine what follows will answer your question.

 

[ryan820]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

 

[XSharkboyX]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.

:beer::thumbsup: :idea:
Applause!!!!!!!!!!
I could not have put it better myself... Short and sweet, but to the point at hand! The only people who defend these high prices are the price gougers, or people who stand to gain by the sky high coral prices...

No ordinary reefer in their right mind would justify paying $100 pp or a "Designer Named/LE/High End" zoa or paly when they could get a colony OF THE SAME COLOR MORPH for $50.

From what I have seen the only thing people are doing, including myself, is trying to educate the online reef community about how bad our hobby has really become... There has been no attacking, just opinions being placed in the view of the public.

Back when these named corals and chop shop price gougers first started to show up on the scene, they would all get banned from online sites. People would actually post the price gouger's websites or their ebay names on forums such as this to warn people not to purchase from them.

Now we see forum sites and vendor websites set up specifically to price gouge and keep coral prices high to rape unsuspecting newbies and reefers who have been conditioned to pay these outrageous prices!!!!!... It has become the norm for everyday reefers so start naming their corals to elevate the price of their corals. What has happened? This is not reefing!

It is totally and completely unacceptable in my book. We as the hobbyists' have the control to stop this. You must stop paying these prices for corals with names and false claims of rarity, otherwise things will never change! If we all stop buying from the price gougers, you will be able to watch the prices drop back down to what they should be!

 

[kichimark]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

ryan820---:beer: I am so glad someone actually understood me here.


Other than that attacking may have been a word not best describing the matter but I have seen members who pay some high price get frowned upon many times over and lately it has been bugging me which led to this thread. It is how we see ourselves and where we go from here.

I see us all as brothers and sisters in this hobby and I will treat as such. I do not support high prices but I will not judge someone who pays it. I do think naming has a purpose of IDENTIFICATION. When used to hype it is not helping the hobby. But does knowing the names of my corals make me a hype person or gouger? I give away things and when I do sell some things it is cheaper than what I get them by a huge factor. Does this make people such as this bringing down the hobby?

Eh im over it. I am just glad someone understood what I was saying.

 

[Jarred1]

Naming corals is ok IMO but when you start throwing LE or Jason Fox in the name is where you get these out outrageous prices. The names can help everyone differentiate one kind of polyp from the next. What makes Jason Fox's corals so much better than any other coral that it makes it seem like we are going out and buying little chunks of gold? I could understand if someone spent a lot of money on a fish. What I can't understand is how someone can spend a lot of money on something that can reproduce in our tanks in a relatively short amount of time.

I don't know if this made any sense to you all, but if it didn't I will clarify later today when I have been awake for some time!

 

[sneeyatch]

I used to totally gripe about stuff on boards, but I found that if you actually talk to the store managers about their extreme pricing, they're usually pretty open. They may not change their price, then again they might. Once they see it sitting in their store for a long time not moving it causes issues with them since they can't move inventory and their relationships with suppliers can become strained.

The bottom line is, if you think it's too expensive don't buy it. Be your own person and don't be a lemming (follower). You'll be happier in the long run.

I think the hobby was way cooler when things were just un-named pieces and went by "red acro with a green base", "blue zoanthids with red skirts". I think it made the hobby more exciting. Tutti Fruitti bananna ramma acro with whip cream on top... give me a break. Even if I have a "LE" piece, I never call it that if people ask. They can be like "Is that red planet?" My answer is always "I don't know, all I know is that's it's healthy and looks good."

I'd like to know whoever came up with the fact that misbar clowns are worth so much more than a regular clownfish. I remember back in the day, a misbar would sit in a LFS till it died. Everyone wanted a "real" clownfish. I'm still the same way.

 

[NyReefNoob]

Naming corals is ok IMO but when you start throwing LE or Jason Fox in the name is where you get these out outrageous prices. The names can help everyone differentiate one kind of polyp from the next. What makes Jason Fox's corals so much better than any other coral that it makes it seem like we are going out and buying little chunks of gold? I could understand if someone spent a lot of money on a fish. What I can't understand is how someone can spend a lot of money on something that can reproduce in our tanks in a relatively short amount of time

+1
I don't knock the people who do go and spend the crazy money for individual piece's, that's their issue. I truelly am against a LE or who ever's name on a coral from the ocean and that makes it cost more. whats even funnier is a good part of what these guys have most of us reefers had way before them, then they take and put their name on it and it is gold ? i'm sorry and i have met jason fox, but my version of the same corals look much better then his did. Even though the internet has brought so much to helping reefers learn and understand it has also been the down fall of it. That and photo shop. if they need a l.e.d or heavy blue light to make a coral look good then thats a coral i dont need, and when the vendors or online stores are asked about it it's funny to see the excuse's or reasoning

 

[israel.kendall]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

Being new to the hobby myself, I also thought this. I looked at all the expensive "rare" LE named corals and just trusted that they really were rare and that the market dictated their price. I thought Jason Fox was like some marine biologist who dives in remote areas of the ocean to hand pick the best coral specimens on the planet. Someone new to the hobby sees this and naturally accepts this as the way things are, and the way they are supposed to be.

Step back for a minute though. Try to see through the eyes of a person who has been in the hobby for a while. They know that these "rare" corals can be (and are) bought for a fraction of the price and that unscrupulous retailers are trying to rip off unsuspecting reefers. They know that Jason Fox is just a regular working man (mechanic) like us with some colorful corals in his tanks.

Now, an "attack" on someone for buying into this hype would be uncalled for or course. I don't really see a lot of attacks, though. I see more of "old school" reefers trying to keep others from being ripped off. People should be thanking them for this.

As an analogy, consider we were coin collectors. Some guy goes to the bank, picks up a few rolls of Sacagawea dollars, then posts them on the internet as ultra super rare limited edition gold dollars for $500 each. New coin collectors unknowingly buy into the hype, buy the coins, spread the hype, and get ripped off. At some point someone needs to stand up and speak the truth, that the coins are neither rare, nor limited edition, and stop the insanity.

Same with the hyped corals, most are not that rare. And as for Limited Edition, well that's not even possible since corals come from the ocean and as far as I know no one is out there creating new breeds. Now if there were breeders out there coming up with some amazing new strains then that would be a different story all together.

 

[USC-fan]

Zoa frags[not one polyp lol] should be $10-$25. If you paid more than that you got rip off....

 

[cjdevito]

I have the single rarest type of zoas currently in the hobby, the fabled "Button polyps, assorted".

Years ago they were common and incredibly easy to find. Walk into any LFS and there you'd see tanks full of large (5"+) rocks completely covered in hundreds of "Button polyps, assorted" for maybe $30 a rock. Nowadays "Button polyps, assorted" are almost impossible to find. Which is funny, really - because the morphs that were included in any collection of "Button polyps, assorted" are very easy to find. Usually marketed as only a handful of polyps with each individual polyp costing nearly as much as a colony of "Button polyps, assorted". But I'm told that it's because their rarity commands the premium price. I wish we had known that 15 years ago, we all had tanks full of extremely rare valuable corals and we never knew it. Those rare corals were everywhere and in such large numbers, and they grew so quickly, that we would have been able to make a killing what with having such a large supply of such limited supply livestock.

But I just can't find "Button polyps, assorted" anymore. It appears that every single color morph of zoanthid has been granted it's own unique snowflake name. And apparently each and every last one of them is a rare, limited edition collectors item. Especially the Japanese ones, that come from vietnam and have never been near Japan. That's what makes them so special, I think.

Anyone know where I can buy some "Button polyps, assorted"? They really do seem to be the rarest ones of all.

 

[aquaph8]

This is the same thread over and over with the same people talking about it. Its a fad, something else will be cool tomorrow.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

The zoa forum, like every forum on the net is a cross section of diverse ideas, opinions, beliefs and ideologies. Sure this topic has come up numerous times, but the same is true with most everything posted in this forum and most others as well. I see pictures posted in the discussion thread when there's a photo sticky up top, but I don't say anything. I have seen a half dozen topics on Purple Hornets on the first page of the zoa forum numerous times over the years, but I won't say anything. There are numerous titles on the same topic in this forum over and over and over again, sometimes I answer, sometimes I allow others to answer, other times I won't read it at all. But that's just the way it is here and everywhere else. It is what it is and we just have to accept it. Sometimes I'll say something, but most times I don't. When I see a topic which I'm tired of seeing or have no interest in, I simply choose not to click on that topic. If I do read it and am tired of seeing it, I simply close it. Sometimes it's best to just look away and not click on something if it is a redundant topic, one that you don't agree with or tired of seeing. But lets allow others to share their feelings on any topic here including the ones I, ( we ) agree and don't agree with.

I think kichimark posted this for his own valid reasons. He ask a question and reefers are simply answering it. The title of his thread began with "why". Just my opinion is all, no offense to anyone.


Mucho

 

[aquaph8]

Like you, I gave my opinion.

 

[KafudaFish]

I don't think I would call it an attack personally.

Many people have different opinions and what they want to do in this hobby. What I want to do probably has very little in common with the reefer that lives 6 streets away from me.

I certainly cannot stop someone from giving frags away but I "can stop" them by selling a frag for some insane amount such as not buying and informing those that they really should think about the purchase price. I won't get into names and the rare discussion.

For the new guy/gal there is a whole world out there that was not around in 2000. Buying and selling knows no boundaries with online stores and sale forums like on RC.
If a newbie hits that sale area and looks around and sees current prices they believe that is how it is and they can pay out the nose or go without. Again this is a hobby so this is disposable income.

Yet the important thing is we the hobbyist have done this to ourselves. We are the ones who set prices.

I guess my big question is where will the hobby be in 5 years? Instead of $50 - $100 pp being "the norm" are we going to be seeing $250 - $500? Are you as a hobbyist going to pay that?

The other end could be no one is going to be keeping these anymore and they will be $1 pp.

So again it is not an attack per say but more of a why do we allow this?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I heard someone tried to frag a fish, but he got away. :fish1:

 

[650-IS350]

I also think it's no attack personally to regular reefers/hobbyist , it's people discussing this issue. The ones that I believe would be more offended are the ones that are to gain from all the sky rocket prices / hyping etc etc that has been brought up from time to time.

I have friends that also operate LFS, and I don't see them hyping or having skyrocket pricing on their corals. And those are the ones that I used to support when I used to be fully vested in this hobby. If I was still much into it they would be the ones I would only be buying from.