Why do we attack eachother on prices?
- Thread starter kichimark
- Start date
Those $30 dollar zoa colonies were the size of a football and full of wild colors. Now they get snagged by chop shops and sold by the polyp has "rare".
The thing that really gets me about those paying the high prices is that they defend paying a several thousand percent mark up for something with a fancy marketing gimmick name, and at the same time complain loudly about the LFS selling anything for a mere 100% or less mark up
With the sellers, yeah they just figured out a better marketing gimmick to get people to believe the common is rare, and they have magic sources from countries that don't export. They are just did a good job of learning from PT Barnum
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Friday Night
New member
This again Kichimark....ahhhhhhh cant take it... *Puts zoa juice in eye*
To each his\her own. You work for your coin do whatever you want with it. I just say always haggle as well as get a pulse of product prior before buying.......
The things you own end up owning you.
To each his\her own. You work for your coin do whatever you want with it. I just say always haggle as well as get a pulse of product prior before buying.......
The things you own end up owning you.
kichimark
Μολὼν λαβ
LMAO haha zoa juice? haha it is my first time doing a thread such as this haha. Gotta be careful when you haggle. If you do do not post on a forum that has a sponser of which the owner frequents haha. Didn't happen to me but to someone else and now its hard to haggle haha.
I remember those button polyps...now that I think of it its true...I do not see them anymore.
Billsreef- yes that can be annoying. As much as the lineage idea to me.
organism
code monkey
If your local supermarket started selling month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon, is that supply and demand just because people buy it? Would that be ok strictly because people are wiling to pay it?
If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?
You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.
This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.
Every single "LE" coral in the country, none of which are rare, the original vendor could have made bank on by selling the colony for $200-250. For the colony. Including every name brand chalice. All of them. So from $200 (retail, they paid a lot less) for a 60 eye colony to a markup of $900-$2000 per eye, that's not supply and demand, that's putting a mercedes sticker on a volvo, because if I told you how common all of those chalices really are you wouldn't believe me. If the vendors outed how common their "rare" corals really are they'd have to sell rump roast as rump roast and volvos as volvos. And that's why they get attacked for using cheap used car salesman tricks to take advantage of hobbyists that just don't know any better.
If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?
You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.
This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.
Every single "LE" coral in the country, none of which are rare, the original vendor could have made bank on by selling the colony for $200-250. For the colony. Including every name brand chalice. All of them. So from $200 (retail, they paid a lot less) for a 60 eye colony to a markup of $900-$2000 per eye, that's not supply and demand, that's putting a mercedes sticker on a volvo, because if I told you how common all of those chalices really are you wouldn't believe me. If the vendors outed how common their "rare" corals really are they'd have to sell rump roast as rump roast and volvos as volvos. And that's why they get attacked for using cheap used car salesman tricks to take advantage of hobbyists that just don't know any better.
Jacwil
New member
+1...well stated!!!!!!!
jimmy_beaner
New member
Personally speaking, as a new reefer, I'm surprised that something we can all grow in our tanks costs as much as it does. I also am excited for the day when my corals grow large enough to be able to frag them and sell them at a reasonable cost to a fellow reefer who simply wants to enjoy the hobby without breaking the bank. It provides a way to recoup some of the purchase price, but also offers someone else a chance at a cheaper version of what they might buy in the store.
XSharkboyX
Wishin' I Was Fishin'
+ 1,000,000 Absolutely fantastic analogy! :beer:
mallorieGgator
New member
I don't understand why this is such an issue.
1. Naming things is normal in every hobby. You have designer dogs, cats, and I was breeding leopard geckos for awhile and there certain color morphs that are now being named. It's what people do, they are proud of an animal they "produced" so they want to name it.
2. If people don't like the prices, then just don't buy it. It'll go down in price just like cell phones. I would have never paid $200 for an iPhone but I have one now because the price has gone down. If people can't sell a designer polyp for a lot of money, then they will drop the price.
3. This is a hobby, no one is forcing anyone to pay a certain price for a zoa so get over it.
4. A lot of the "attacking" most likely stems from the shock that prices have gone up...well, prices have gone up on a lot of things in this world so why are corals any different? Also, I believe some people will become slightly jelous so they may "attack" someone because of that.
5. Some people are charging too much for corals. They want to get what they paid for it but most likely they can't so people are letting them know. A lot of people don't understand that the price goes down by the time the coral has made enough polyps to sell a frag.
6. Look at Chalices, a lot of people have no problem paying $300 an eye for a chalice and most people don't complain about the prices there.
My point is I think people need to get over it. It's a hobby, if you can't afford a certain coral, just wait it out and you can get it eventually once the price goes down.
1. Naming things is normal in every hobby. You have designer dogs, cats, and I was breeding leopard geckos for awhile and there certain color morphs that are now being named. It's what people do, they are proud of an animal they "produced" so they want to name it.
2. If people don't like the prices, then just don't buy it. It'll go down in price just like cell phones. I would have never paid $200 for an iPhone but I have one now because the price has gone down. If people can't sell a designer polyp for a lot of money, then they will drop the price.
3. This is a hobby, no one is forcing anyone to pay a certain price for a zoa so get over it.
4. A lot of the "attacking" most likely stems from the shock that prices have gone up...well, prices have gone up on a lot of things in this world so why are corals any different? Also, I believe some people will become slightly jelous so they may "attack" someone because of that.
5. Some people are charging too much for corals. They want to get what they paid for it but most likely they can't so people are letting them know. A lot of people don't understand that the price goes down by the time the coral has made enough polyps to sell a frag.
6. Look at Chalices, a lot of people have no problem paying $300 an eye for a chalice and most people don't complain about the prices there.
My point is I think people need to get over it. It's a hobby, if you can't afford a certain coral, just wait it out and you can get it eventually once the price goes down.
djkms
Fish Freak
Hello!!!! My name is DJKMS and I am part of the price complaint crew:dance:
Just about everything you posted here is narrow minded and you are exactly the type of person these gougers cater to!
Let me break this down real simply for you.
Disclaimer!!!!: If I forget parts of this chain of events or mess it up somehow I am sorry, going off of memory here and us geezer reefers memory is not as good as you young whippersnappers.
A person in a third world country (yes I say third world because a majority of the reefs in the world are adjacent to 3rd world countries, areas) grabs their swim/snorkel gear and heads out to the ocean. They harvest corals, inverts, fish etc for the day. If they are good, at the end of the day they might collect a small fish stores worth of livestock.
Now I do believe transhippers pay the collectors. The collector makes pennies per livestock, probably not even $5-$10 a day. Remember they just collected a small fish stores worth of stock! This has not changed in 30 years.
The transhipper then brings massive amounts of coral, fish and livestock stateside or to a coast near you.
The livestock is then sold to a wholesale distributor. No clue how much but lets guess ~$5 per colony. I didnt say frag, I said colony. Lets say the average colony is 5". Now keep basic economics in mind folks; these are massive shipments, enough to fill hundreds of fish stores with stock. Buying in bulk saves money.
Now take a second to think about the amount of livestock that travels through a distributor. There is absolutely no way a wholesaler is going to go through every bit of livestock to name this and name that. Time is money and it would not financially make sense for a decent size wholesaler to spend the time to name the thousands upon thousands of different types of corals and livestock going through their systems.
If you have never peaked around what a wholesaler looks like take a look at some of these pictures
http://www.qualitymarine.com/About
That should give you a idea of just how much volume they do.
Now the wholesaler sells the product to the LFS, the basement fraggers, the chop shops, you name it. Now some of the more reputable wholesalers like quality marine do some pretty serious checks on you before they will sell to you. For example if you have a frag tank in your basement and a business license QM is not even going to look your way.
To save on costs your fish store is picking up their recently purchased livestock from the airport. It is MUCH MUCH cheaper that way then you or I getting a coral shipped to us that cost $50 overnight. Fish stores can get complete shipments for less than $200 (shipping).
But wait a minute DJKMS you haven't talked about the LE, Rare, Superduperimcoolerthanyoucoral yet???? See you are paying attention! Lets go back to the collector. He/She doesnt wake up in the morning and say "Im going diving today to try to find a Tryee Jason Fox Cuban Deepwater Zoa today because those always make me more money!". The collector is not getting paid any more for collecting a Tryee acro then a average green acro. The transhipper doesnt give a crap about names and neither does the wholesaler, they dont waste the time or resources.
Now the LFS has their shipment sitting in their tanks and they notice a coral they have never seen before! At this point a few things can happen. Lets pass this coral on to a local reefer and sell it for the average markup as other corals. Or lets slap on a fancy name, mark it up 1,000% and make some dough. I know for a fact that some online vendors, frag dealers, etc make it a point to find "new" corals. I even know a guy who if he gets a "new" coral in he calls Tyree to see if he can get his name on it to make money.
My point is the collector is not making more money on named corals. The transhipper is not making more money on named corals. The wholesaler is not making more money on named corals (I do think they are starting to wise up to the idiots though and are more on the lookout for named corals and charging accordingly).
15 years ago there was no such thing as named corals. So now, years later some jackwad collector slaps his name on a coral and thats ok? We are supposed to just sit back and take it because thats the norm with society?
Well if you want to buy your Volvo with a Mercedes sticker be my guest. its your money, but I for one will voice my opinion about it and I will voice it to you because its this type of complacency that is sending this hobby down a slippery slope that none of us will be able to afford especially with Snorkelbob talking out his backside.
Have a good day!
mallorieGgator
New member
I'm actually open minded and I have never paid out the butt for a polyp or a colony. I don't buy zoas because of the name, I just buy what I like. The main part of what I said is that if people don't like paying a ton of money for something then don't do it. If it bothers you, then don't buy it. No one is making anyone buy anything. If you are upset about how little people are getting paid, that's your view on it. I don't disagree that it's not right. However, my view is if you don't like the price, don't put a demand on the market and the price will drop. I'm just letting you know my thoughts and by telling me I'm narrow minded, I think that makes you a bit of a hippocrite.
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mallorieGgator
New member
Also, your comment is pretty demeaning. Maybe you would get further with your side of the argument if you weren't talking to me like a I'm a child.
djkms
Fish Freak
Mallorie,
The problem is that people new to the hobby don't know any better! They see that lovely photoshopped chalice or zoa and buy right into it. Just because YOU are smarter than paying that money doesn't mean that the new guy knows any better.
I do want to apologize for singling you out, this is obviously a sensitive subject for some of us.
You say if we don't like the price then dont buy it and I agree with that. But we must educate people that they are being ripped off otherwise the $1,000 frag chop shop will continue to prosper.
The problem is that people new to the hobby don't know any better! They see that lovely photoshopped chalice or zoa and buy right into it. Just because YOU are smarter than paying that money doesn't mean that the new guy knows any better.
I do want to apologize for singling you out, this is obviously a sensitive subject for some of us.
You say if we don't like the price then dont buy it and I agree with that. But we must educate people that they are being ripped off otherwise the $1,000 frag chop shop will continue to prosper.
mallorieGgator
New member
I agree that we must educate new people. But sometimes people must educate themselves and if someone makes a hard mistake then they learn the hard way. All we can do is show that yes, some things are over priced. But we can only do so much. Sometimes the consumer must rely on common sense. Also, thanks for the apology.
AuroraDrvr
New member
I see a lot of people talking about $30 Zoa colonies, and how that translates into companies ripping people off when they charge $100 for a polyp of something.
While the premise does hold true for the more generic zoas, it doesn't hold true for some of the more unique morphs.
I'm a fan of PE zoas, when I see a chop-shop charging $50 for a 10 head frag of RPE, I cringe knowing that RPE are imported as huge wild colonies, and sold for <$50 as a big colony, retail. My issue with simply say that people are overcharging because there are $30 colonies, lays in the fact that it simply is not true. Can you show me a wild colony of Blue Agaves? What about a huge wild $30 colony of Space Monsters or Sopranos? You can't, because they simply don't exist.
While I do think $75+ is outlandish for a polyp that easily reproduces and propogates in our tanks, I don't think a higher price than your run of the mill Eagle Eyes or something, is out of line.
While the premise does hold true for the more generic zoas, it doesn't hold true for some of the more unique morphs.
I'm a fan of PE zoas, when I see a chop-shop charging $50 for a 10 head frag of RPE, I cringe knowing that RPE are imported as huge wild colonies, and sold for <$50 as a big colony, retail. My issue with simply say that people are overcharging because there are $30 colonies, lays in the fact that it simply is not true. Can you show me a wild colony of Blue Agaves? What about a huge wild $30 colony of Space Monsters or Sopranos? You can't, because they simply don't exist.
While I do think $75+ is outlandish for a polyp that easily reproduces and propogates in our tanks, I don't think a higher price than your run of the mill Eagle Eyes or something, is out of line.
israel.kendall
Padawan Reefer
Djkms, actually some of these divers are trained in what to look for and do try to find specific corals that are in demand. They may not name them, but they absolutely look for them.
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djkms
Fish Freak
Serious? So these divers that probably dont even have a telephone or television know what a Jason Fox My Miami is?
Ahhh man im just going to shut up about this subject then and stick with my no name $30 colonies. I give up LOL
aquaph8
Love The Fish
Thats how this country works. You the consumer pays high prices for something someone else bought at a lot lower price.(sometimes because they bought it in bulk sometimes not)
Walmart has been doing this for years.(They even produce 4 of the top 10 richest people in the world). How much you think walgreens paid for that prescription you picked up the otherday, how much do you think that computer your sitting in front of cost to make compared to how much you paid for it. Sure zoa's used to be a lot cheaper. Its cause not as many people wanted them. Its when people started wanting them that companies started coming up with names and ways to market them. Of course hobbiest also saw it as a way to make a buck and followed suite. The truth is that this hobby got really big really fast, and thats all happened with a slow economy(imagine if it was during a good economy). If you think the hobby is going back to the way it used to be your wrong. Its never going back and this is coming from someone who has nothing to gain ( I dont sell corals hardly at all and if I do its for really cheap or trade.) The market in this hobby gets bigger and bigger everyday and that need for the livestock gets bigger all the time. You can protest and threaten to quit the hobby all you want but its not gonna help. All you can do is trade with local hobbiest, spread the wealth. I have to admit that I love the fact that people cant go to the LFS and buy huge colonies in this country. I see pics of LFS in other countries with these beautiful colonies of SPS and it makes me sick. Think about how many new people get into this hobby everyday, go to the store and fill up there tank only to kill a full tank of live animals in a short period of time and move on to the next hobby. I would much rather see frags die then colonies. Those of us in the hobby for the long haul should be more than happy to grow out our frags. Should prices be cheaper and more realistic? Sure. But I should be able to fill up my gas tank for under 3.50 too. Theres better ways to fight this IMO. If you want cheaper prices just wait for the fads to die. Really dont be sorry for the new guy that has no problem droping hundreds on one or two frags cause he'll probably be selling them for nothing when he quits in a few months anyway.
Walmart has been doing this for years.(They even produce 4 of the top 10 richest people in the world). How much you think walgreens paid for that prescription you picked up the otherday, how much do you think that computer your sitting in front of cost to make compared to how much you paid for it. Sure zoa's used to be a lot cheaper. Its cause not as many people wanted them. Its when people started wanting them that companies started coming up with names and ways to market them. Of course hobbiest also saw it as a way to make a buck and followed suite. The truth is that this hobby got really big really fast, and thats all happened with a slow economy(imagine if it was during a good economy). If you think the hobby is going back to the way it used to be your wrong. Its never going back and this is coming from someone who has nothing to gain ( I dont sell corals hardly at all and if I do its for really cheap or trade.) The market in this hobby gets bigger and bigger everyday and that need for the livestock gets bigger all the time. You can protest and threaten to quit the hobby all you want but its not gonna help. All you can do is trade with local hobbiest, spread the wealth. I have to admit that I love the fact that people cant go to the LFS and buy huge colonies in this country. I see pics of LFS in other countries with these beautiful colonies of SPS and it makes me sick. Think about how many new people get into this hobby everyday, go to the store and fill up there tank only to kill a full tank of live animals in a short period of time and move on to the next hobby. I would much rather see frags die then colonies. Those of us in the hobby for the long haul should be more than happy to grow out our frags. Should prices be cheaper and more realistic? Sure. But I should be able to fill up my gas tank for under 3.50 too. Theres better ways to fight this IMO. If you want cheaper prices just wait for the fads to die. Really dont be sorry for the new guy that has no problem droping hundreds on one or two frags cause he'll probably be selling them for nothing when he quits in a few months anyway.
israel.kendall
Padawan Reefer
I don't know if they actually use the names, but have a read of this guys blog. He does get pictures sent to him of in demand corals, and he does train his divers. I doubt every operation is as well run as his, but I'm just saying it does happen.
This blog entry talks a little about it, as well as some opinions on other things, it's a good read:
http://eddie-coral-adventures.blogspot.com/2009/02/thoughts-on-wild-coral-export.html
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