Why do you use a skimmer?

[xdannyxrocksx]

Q: Why have scrubbers caused so much anger by so many people?
A: These people are angry because:

1. They are employed by, or they are a relative/friend/spouse of someone who is employed by, a manufacturer/distributor/retailer/installer of skimmer/filtration/waterchange/additive products. There are over 3,000 stores in the U.S. alone that sell these products, with several people working at each one. That's a lot of people to post anti-scrubber comments online. And they are paid to do it.

2. They have a lot of money invested in their skimmer and other filtration equipment. So they feel ripped off to find that a cheaper piece of equipment can do a better job of removing nutrients. It makes them look unprepared.

3. They had aquariums in the 1980's, 1990's, or early 2000’s, when scrubbers were built and operated incorrectly. Scrubbers back then were noisy and caused yellowing and clouding. Scrubbers today don't. But these people have not used a modern (after August 2008) scrubber, so they think all scrubbers still operate the same.

4. They don't understand how scrubbers work, and they are not going to learn. They think that skimmers remove Ammonia, Nitrite, Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate (i.e., all the bad stuff). But skimmers don't do this. Not even a little. Scrubbers do.

5. Since they already have a setup that works properly, they have no reason to expend the time and energy to change. This is understandable.

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

here you go Pallobi

Q: How is a scrubber different from a skimmer?
A: Scrubbers remove Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate, ammonia/ammonium, metals and CO2 from the water. (Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate are what cause nuisance algae to grow on your rocks and glass, and are what you measure with your test kits.) Skimmers remove organics (protein/food) from the water. Both scrubbers and skimmers, however, add oxygen to the water. Scrubbers add more though, and can supersaturate the water with oxygen, due to photosynthesis.

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

Scrubbers are different from a fuge in so many ways:

o With a scrubber, there is very little water standing in the way of the light. Also, the light is (or should be) very close to the scrubber... 4 inches (10cm) or less. The power of light varies with the inverse square of the distance, so going from 8" to 4" actually gives you 4X the power, not 2X. And the nutrient removal power of algae is proportional to the power of the light, because it's the photosynthesis that is doing the processing.

o Rapid flow across the algae in a scrubber gives more delivery of nutrients, compared to the slow moving water in a fuge.

o The turbulence of water moving over the sections of algae in a scrubber help to remove the boundary layer of water around the algae. This boundary layer slows the transfer of metabolites in and out of the algae. There is no turbulence in a fuge (if there were, you'd have waves and bubbles).

o Scrubbers trap no waste/food like a refugium or DSB does; waste/food flows right past the screen.

o Scrubbers do not (if cleaned properly) release strands into display, like chaeto.

o Scrubbers do not go sexual, like caulerpa can.

o Scrubbers are 1/10 to 1/4 the physical size, for the same processing power.

o Scrubbers weigh nothing (they hold no water), so they can built into a box and placed on furniture.

o Scrubbers cool the water. And if a fan is used, they REALLY cool the water.

o If you don't want cooling, put a box around it; there will be NO cooling.

o Scrubbers do not ever produce hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs), like refugium-DSBs can.

o Scrubbers can be set on top of the tank, so pods drain right into tank, unharmed.

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

Q: What exactly does a scrubber do to my water?
A: It takes ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, inorganic nitrate, inorganic phosphate, metals (like copper, aluminum and iron), and CO2 out of the water. It puts oxygen into the water. It also cools the water if you have an open-air design. And if you put a fan on it, it REALLY cools the water. Increased evaporation will also occur, unless you use an enclosed unit. Baby copepods (tiny white dust specs) are added to the water. Iron and Iodine are removed from the water. Alkalinity may in some cases be slightly decreased, because of algae's slight use of bicarbonate to get CO2. Water clarity (meaning tinting, which is different from particles) is also sometimes improved, although it is not known why. Lastly, organic molecules are put into the water: Carbohydrates, vitamins, proteins, enzymes, lipids, and these amino acids: valine, leucine, tyrosine, phenylalanine, methionine, aspartate, glutamate, serine, alanine, and proline.

Q: I keep hearing "Yes, skimmers DO remove nitrate and phosphate! They just do it by removing organics BEFORE they break down into nitrates and phosphates"
A: That's just great. Organics, before they "break down", are called FOOD. Yes, FOOD. So yes, skimmers DO remove FOOD (i.e., "protein"). But saying that removing FOOD is the same thing as removing nitrates and phosphates is like saying that removing BEER before you drink it is the same as removing pee afterwards. Wouldn't you rather have the beer, and remove the pee? Skimmers remove the food that you put in the tank, period. If removing food is what you need, then a skimmer is a must-have. Skimmers are recommended for fish-only tanks, especially with large predators.

Q: You say that algae removes CO2, and adds oxygen. But algae needs "respiration" time too, when it actually adds CO2 back to the water.
A: Yes algae adds CO2 back to the water when the lights are off. But it remove MORE CO2 when the lights are on, as long as the algae is growing. That is, after all, how the algae grows... it eats (accumulates) more nutrients than it releases. Otherwise the algae would shrink instead of grow. Algae takes carbon from the CO2, and uses it to build biomass. So it must take in more than it releases. The amount of CO2 it releases is actually very small.

 

[Pallobi]

the ocean is basically an infinite about of water, with an incredible amount of filter feeders... not really a good comparison for the small boxes we keep in our homes...

have you ever been to the ocean and seen where the waves come ashore... alot of times there is a brown "sudsy" material at the waves incoming edge on the shore... this is proteins which have been naturally "skimmed" from the ocean through wave action with the waters surface... this is a small example, but a skimmer of sorts nonetheless...

jus sayin

 

[Pallobi]

thank you for the info danny... alot of that i was not aware given the info is correct...

i am simply advocating for skimmers, i admitted i knew nothing of scrubbers, but i will stick with my oversized skimmer

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

you are welcome, im not putting down skimmers just found something easier that keeps my corals happy

 

[scubasteve06]

So all of us on this forum are employed by a skimmer company, wow I didn't know that my family was in the skimmer business. Coulda saved a lot of money...."Hey Cuz, hook me up!!!!":hmm1::lmao:

 

[scubasteve06]

Q: Will a scrubber harm my corals?
A: No. Matter of fact, corals grow best with lots of food particles (nutrition) in the water, and corals also like low levels of nitrate and phosphate (nutrients). That's exactly what scrubbers provide. This applies especially to SPS corals.

This is totally wrong SPS corals need oversized skimmers to keep the water completely pristine


and to add on..can somebody show me what size skimmer the ocean uses??

Ever been to hawaii and seen those 25ft. waves? Yea...:lol2:

 

[Anthonius]

why are we bickering like children folks? Obviously the reef tank and the ocean are worlds apart. We cannot begin to fathom the oceans natural filtration. Ask the ocean what is a deep sand bed!?! The fact of the matter here is a skimmer is favored by some and a scrubber is favored by others. I am sitting in my chair right now saying "why cant we use both?" if it works for you and your tank than keep doing it and dont change it in other words "if it aint broke dont fix it!"

I on the other hand run a skimmer and a clump of chaeto in the same sump

Steve "Ever been to hawaii and seen those 25ft. waves? Yea..." never mind the 25 footers... in youtube type in "surf mavericks" now those are some real waves. Men have died ripping on those things I imagine the shore has some foam on it that looks somewhat like the foam collecting in my skimmers neck.

heres a vid:
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[xdannyxrocksx]

did the sps corals tell you they need oversized skimmers??

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

my sps seem to be doing just fine with no skimmer...dont know where you come to the conclusion that they NEED oversized skimmers..

 

[Anthonius]

my sps seem to be doing just fine with no skimmer...dont know where you come to the conclusion that they NEED oversized skimmers..

well they dont exactly need a 5 gallon bucket with a screen covered in hair algae either. however they do require a pristine environment. how you achieve that environment is obviously a matter of opinion.

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

that is exactly what i said when i first posted..but people think im downing skimmers..no i am not i run one like i said just not on all my tanks..i dont runn skimmers in my coral tanks tho for obvious reasons..you might be running a skimmer but you are having to dose one thing or the other..

 

[Anthonius]

that is exactly what i said when i first posted..but people think im downing skimmers..no i am not i run one like i said just not on all my tanks..i dont runn skimmers in my coral tanks tho for obvious reasons..you might be running a skimmer but you are having to dose one thing or the other..

what things do you think i dose?

 

[Sk8r]

A skimmer, to quote another thread, functions as the kidneys of a tank. What it removes is what the tank can well do without.

SPS vary considerably in degree of ease of keeping and the water quality demands. A montipora can just about survive a cycle---and valida and bali slimer and pocis are also pretty tolerant of conditions. I have found others far touchier than those, and suspect several conditions of annoying them, including an inefficient skimmer.

 

[noobtothereef]

baxk to the old algea scrubber vs skimmer thread again..... algea scrubbers work and so do skimmers,...but...... skimmers work a whole hell of alot better lol

the comment earlier saying that an algea scrubber is 1/10th the size of a fuge??? seriously? So your algea scrubber is the size of a piece of toast? Whats that gonna do? The scrubbers that i have seen that kind of work are huge

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

all i am saying is not alot of people knwo how to set up a skimmer..and alot of people dont understand that skimmers dont only take out nutrients but also nutrition..two very different things...but also i didnt say all of you belong to a skimmer company but im sure you guys paid alot of money for your fancy bubbling devices..cus i know i did compared to my 30 dollar scrubber..man i preffer a scrubber all day.

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

man you guys really dont read up do you..what scrubbers are we talking about from what year..cus shoot i know alot of people that have succes with srubbers..Santa Monica for a great example..i have a friend that has a 125 with a 10 gallon/scrubber sump...vs the crazy 40 gallon sumps with 1000 dollars worth of crap.

skimmers do work well at the same time removing alot of food used by other animals..once again skimmers work amazing i just prefer my scrubber keeping the good stuff in and taking the bad stuff out not removing them both..

 

[xdannyxrocksx]

Q: Since scrubbers don't remove food from the water like skimmers do, won't the DOC (dissolved organic carbon) build up and cause problems?
A: No. You need to realize that DOC is food also; it's just microscopically small food, mostly eaten by bacteria, and by some corals. So the DOC gets to a certain level and stays there, since it's being consumed by bacteria and corals. And the bacteria themselves are food for corals too. But also you need to know that recent research has shown that skimmers actually don't remove (much) DOC as previously thought. Skimmers are mostly removing POC (particulate organic carbon), i.e. pieces of food. That's why they are called "protein skimmers", because food is protein.