Why don't intermediate depth sand beds work?

[Paul B]

Comparing a closed system to mother nature is absurd. Mother natures sand bed is bottomless (almost) and the top few feet gets tossed regularly by storms... Kind of like cleaning.

That is true that our systems will never duplicate Mother Nature but some of us try.
Myself for one even though my substrait is not bottomless, (2 1/2" or so) I do make typhoons every year to stir everything up and I also add mud with the associated bacteria quite often along with some NSW and amphipods along with whatever is in the mud. I get this mud from the Long Island Sound. So even though my tank will never compete with the sea, I try to mimic it as much as possable which of course is absurd. :wavehand:

 

[power boat jim]

That is true that our systems will never duplicate Mother Nature but some of us try.
Myself for one even though my substrait is not bottomless, (2 1/2" or so) I do make typhoons every year to stir everything up and I also add mud with the associated bacteria quite often along with some NSW and amphipods along with whatever is in the mud. I get this mud from the Long Island Sound. So even though my tank will never compete with the sea, I try to mimic it as much as possable which of course is absurd. :wavehand:

I just did this on Saturday. Also siphoned out 2/3 of my sand bed in the tank and replaced it. I do this 2-3x a year. I am always surprised how much brown crud comes out of an inch or so of sand that doesnt look all that bad to begin with. I cant imagine how much crud there is in 6+ inches of sand that hasnt been turned over for years.

I never saw the logic in removing detritus by leaving it in the sand, but thats just me.

 

[Paul B]

I never replaced my sand, but I use gravel so it is easy to stir up and clean.
Jim, tioday I am wirebrushing my props even though it is still 30 degrees.

 

[power boat jim]

I never replaced my sand, but I use gravel so it is easy to stir up and clean.
Jim, tioday I am wirebrushing my props even though it is still 30 degrees.

I just got a bill for $1100 for repainting both drives and having all the anodes replaced. I hope I get to see the new paint before it goes in the water.

Wire brushing in 30 deg weather doesnt sound like all that much fun either.

 

[Northside Reef]

Sand is not magic. It's just a pile of crushed up calcium carbonate. It doesn't do tricks, it doesn't clean your tank, it doesn't "work", it just lays there doing pretty much nothing. It doesn't matter how deep or shallow it is. It's still just a pile of calcium carbonate on the bottom of the tank.

Unfortunately, Ron Shemik and his disciples have been brought up in this thread. As if what they say is true, or actually works the way they describe it. It does not.

The only reason these people have not been brought up on animal cruelty charges is because there are no laws protecting fish and invertebrates from acts of cruelty.

Take any "higher" life form, like a dog, put it in a small enclosure, don't clean the bottom of that enclosure, allow its waste to accumulate to the point that is supports hundreds of thousands of worms/insects/poo eaters/"infauna", maybe even buy some fishing worms to boost the biodiversity, and see what happens. Something tells me you wouldn't get very far by telling the judge that you didn't clean up after the dog because you had flies, maggots, worms, and other critters doing if for you. The dog is likely to get sick and eventually die due to the fact that it was forced to live in a small enclosure with its own filth. This is the exact same thing we see over and over and over and over again in systems like Shemik describes.

When hobbyists started noticing that their animals were dying, these people had to come up with some excuse to explain it, other than the truth which would be by saying, "My method is crap. Sorry for your loss." So, they invented "old tank syndrome". There is no such thing as old tank syndrome. It should be called dirty tank syndrome. Clean tanks simply do not have this problem. This problem only arises when we do not clean up after our pets. Like Shemik advises.

For some people, their "belief" in this DSB method is so strong that they'll repeatedly watch their animals die, only to replace them and watch them die all over again. Borenman's personal tank crashed countless times, yet he continued to go right back to the Shemik DSB that caused it in the first place. He even wrote an article about how he disturbed his sand bed and killed all, or most, of his corals. The lesson he learned was to not disturb that six inch pile of rot and filth on the bottom of his tank, because it can kill his corals. That's absurd!!!!:wildone: If I disturb a rattle snake in my living room and get bit, the lesson I learn will not be to tippy toe around the snake so I don't disturb it again. I would remove the snake from my living room so I don't have to worry about disturbing it again. If Borneman would have simply removed the six inch pile of rot and filth from the bottom of his tank, he wouldn't have had to worry about animals dying because he disturbed it.

So basically, we can have sand of what ever depth we like, or what ever depth we think our pets may appreciate. We simply need to keep it clean. We wouldn't force any other animal to live under the conditions of a Shemik DSB system, so why would we do this to some of the most environmentally sensitive organisms on the planet?

Peace
EC

lol I remember you from years past. You're still a blow hard. DSB's are not magic you're right. But then neither is the nitrogen cycle, because we know how it works. We know where anaerobic bacteria grows and where is doesn't..

How about we also blame every tank that has crashed using the BB system on BB's eh? You are aware that BB tanks crash also aren't you? Did you have a finger you wanted to point at as to who is to blame for that?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

lol I remember you from years past. You're still a blow hard. DSB's are not magic you're right. But then neither is the nitrogen cycle, because we know how it works. We know where anaerobic bacteria grows and where is doesn't..

How about we also blame every tank that has crashed using the BB system on BB's eh? You are aware that BB tanks crash also aren't you? Did you have a finger you wanted to point at as to who is to blame for that?

nah- I'm with EC. Stir up an old in-tank DSB and watch your Acros RTN. I've seen it happen many times. It's never happend like that in my SSB or BB aquariums- or even in DSB aquariums that are kept free of detritus. It's a maintenance issue and the aquarist is to "blame" for which path is chosen.

EC knows what he's talking about.

 

[gbru316]

lol I remember you from years past. You're still a blow hard. DSB's are not magic you're right. But then neither is the nitrogen cycle, because we know how it works. We know where anaerobic bacteria grows and where is doesn't..

How about we also blame every tank that has crashed using the BB system on BB's eh? You are aware that BB tanks crash also aren't you? Did you have a finger you wanted to point at as to who is to blame for that?

If the sole inhabitant of a deep sand bed was anaerobic bacteria, it wouldn't be a problem. Throw years of detritus and filth into the mix and it becomes a problem.

If a deep sand bed could be kept free of accumulating junk, there's no reason why it couldn't work indefinitely. Problem is that this isn't easy in a remote application and it's impossible in a display.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

If the sole inhabitant of a deep sand bed was anaerobic bacteria, it wouldn't be a problem. Throw years of detritus and filth into the mix and it becomes a problem.

If a deep sand bed could be kept free of accumulating junk, there's no reason why it couldn't work indefinitely. Problem is that this isn't easy in a remote application and it's impossible in a display.

:thumbsup: spoken as though you know firsthand

 

[gbru316]

:thumbsup: spoken as though you know firsthand

I've seen what accumulates after only a year. I can't imagine 5+

My current BB tank (10g nano) has an mp10 running at 100%. Detritus settles in 1 spot (the integerated filtration chamber, with almost 200x turnover in the display detritus doesn't last long) and gets removed weekly with a water change. Far easier than vacuuming sand periodically.


Related, my LFS (That Fish Place) usually has several displays around the store. They currently have a several hundred gallon barebottom display that has been in operation for almost 10 years. Meanwhile, the displays with sand beds get rotated out every few years because they usually end up with nuisance algae issues. Anecdotal, but it supports the idea.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Detritus removal is unfortunately over looked by many. I wonder how many would be reefers have left the hobby because they we erroneously informed that "you don't need to clean your SB" and then watched their system crash in a year or three.

 

[dankreef]

EC is the man. Nuff said. Clean your sand if you run it. Even watch the vivid videos of him thrashing his sand bed so nothing can accumulate if you don't believe. /thread.

 

[Paul B]

Mine is over 40 years old and I have to completely stir the gravel at least every year and suck out detritus or I could not be in this hobby. I don't use sand, but that would probably be even worse.

 

[elegance coral]

lol I remember you from years past. You're still a blow hard.

:lolspin:
Yep........ I've been on RC, telling people how horrible this Shemik DSB method is for almost six years now, and you obviously haven't learned anything yet.

But then neither is the nitrogen cycle, because we know how it works.

Yes....."We" do know how the nitrogen cycle works. The question is, do "you" know how it works? If you truly understand the nitrogen cycle, I don't see how it's possible to support a method such as the Shemik style DSB. If what you know of the nitrogen cycle comes from those that support such a method, you're only getting a small glimpse into how this process actually works.

How about we also blame every tank that has crashed using the BB system on BB's eh?

Make that connection and we will. Explain to us how a clean glass bottom causes a tank to crash. As you so eloquently pointed out, I've spent years describing how six inches of rot and filth causes tanks to crash. If you want to say that BB's cause tank crashes, go ahead. Explain to us how that works.

You are aware that BB tanks crash also aren't you? Did you have a finger you wanted to point at as to who is to blame for that?

Sure. It's called natural disasters, equipment failures, power failures, or small children that want to feed the fishies using their breakfast cereal. No tank has ever crashed because the bottom was clean.

This has been a good informative discussion. At times, the parties involved may not have agreed, but they did not resort to school yard tactics of name calling. Until you came along that is. If you don't agree with me, or anyone else in this thread, that's great. Make your point and show us the errors of our ways. When your limited understanding prevents you from doing that, please don't get mad and ruin a good thing by resorting to name calling and getting the thread closed. This is the advanced forum. It's not a grade school play ground.

Peace
EC

 

[JPMagyar]

:deadhorse:

Sorry guys, I just gotta disagree.

EC, I believe what you are stating as fact is not proven. We know very little about what bacteria we are supporting in the anaerobic regions of an aquarium, and I absolutely agree with the gentleman above that just because an aquarium with a sand bed crashes it is NOT ipso facto proof DSBs are deadly. On the other hand the existence of old DSBs in healthy SPS aquariums is ipso facto proof that DSBs are NOT the toxic heaps you claim. They may have the POTENTIAL to become toxic if stirred up too much but that remains to be proven in some future scientific study. As of today such a possibility remains a scientific HYPOTHESIS and NOT scientific FACT, but I feel you are arguing as if it is in fact true.


As you would hopefully agree, "poo" doesn't collect at the bottom of a tank DSB, BB, or otherwise. Waste is processed in our home aquariums on a continual basis and we have well established means to remove the by-products regardless of our substrate therefore a DSB is not a sink that collects "poo" indefinitely.



Jason, the owner of Greenwich Aquaria, has never once cleaned his DSB which is about 8 inches deep 6 years old and has eels living in it that have been there since the beginning AND his tank is simply spectacular AND is home to hundreds of fish AND must by definition be simply overflowing with poo BUT somehow remains pristine clean . . . hmmmm. Home aquariums are mini-ecosystems and so long as you use some means to maintain a balance between the production of waste/ the processing of waste/ and the eventual by-products of those processes then your tank can stay healthy, DSB or BB. The mechanisms by which our tanks are able to process organics especially in anoxic regions are little understood, but clearly it does happen as many tanks are now going nigh well over a decade.

I don't doubt that there are DSB tanks that crashed, including Borneman's, but no one ever accused him of being an SPS aquarium enthusiast. He's the same guy that told me the color of lamps doesn't affect the color of corals and put up a picture of a scolymia under an Iwasaki bulb as proof. The causes of his tank crashes are indeterminate.

The primary issue here is the supposed "build up" of waste, but there is no single scientific study that has examined old home aquarium sand beds to determine exactly how much build up of toxic elements like hydrogen sulfide actually occur so we have no real knowledge on the topic and only best guesses based on anecdotal stories of "I stirred up my sand bed and it stunk". It stinks when I stir up tide pools in the ocean as well, so what, that's part of the natural order in an oxygen deprived environment.

Bottom line: We don't have proof that old DSBs actually process waste at lower levels, but we sure as heck don't have proof that they collect and release toxic elements either, and DSBs are not the devil's child in an aquarium that some here are making them out to be in this thread.



OK, I wait to be properly schooled now :reading:



Joe :beer:

 

[power boat jim]

I have a question, stupid as it may be here goes. If a deepsand bed cannot handle the breakdown of all the deritus in a reef tank and needs to be cleaned and or vacuumed periodically or it basically will cease to function, what is the point in having it if a bare bottom tank and a shallow sand bed tank need basically the same maintenance?

After reading all this,it seems to me even the folks who have a long running dsb keep detritus suspended via good circulation or remove it via a siphon. If this isnt done the whole deal comes to a halt in time just as it would in any other sort of tank.

 

[JPMagyar]

I have a question, stupid as it may be here goes. If a deepsand bed cannot handle the breakdown of all the deritus in a reef tank and needs to be cleaned and or vacuumed periodically or it basically will cease to function, what is the point in having it if a bare bottom tank and a shallow sand bed tank need basically the same maintenance?

After reading all this,it seems to me even the folks who have a long running dsb keep detritus suspended via good circulation or remove it via a siphon. If this isnt done the whole deal comes to a halt in time just as it would in any other sort of tank.

Right off the top of my head I know of 3 long running tanks with DSBs that neither clean them nor blow them so hard as to "suspend detritus". The first is Jason's mentioned above the second is Paul B. whose tank was 17 years old when he changed it out in December, and Ked L. who was one of the early TOTMs on RC. These tanks are all SPS dominant and healthy. I want to emphasize that Paul's tank was 17 years old, and he never once vacuumed or cleaned his sand. The tank was an in-wall style built into a corner diagonally and it was almost impossible to reach the bottom. DSBs as toxic tank killers is a THEORY NOT A FACT, and the existence of even one long term DSB is powerful evidence that tank crashes are the work of some other element other than the mere presence of a DSB.


Joe :beer:

 

[gbru316]

Bottom line: We don't have proof that old DSBs actually process waste at lower levels, but we sure as heck don't have proof that they collect and release toxic elements either, and DSBs are not the devil's child in an aquarium that some here are making them out to be in this thread.

The amount of detritus present in an old sand bed is overwhelming. If you've ever removed/stirred/vacuumed one, you'd certainly experience this. A sand bed is most definitely a captor of detritus.

You're the first to bring up the mechanism of crashing (release of toxic elements). No one has claimed that DSB's cause crashing via toxic elements. In most cases, hydrogen sulfide isn't the issue. IMO, The issue is that a deep sand bed (through it's very nature) will collect detritus and "lock it away" due to lack of water flow. When this is disturbed (or when it is "full") this detritus is no longer stored and is free to rapidly decompose in the tank, causing either nutrient problems or a crash.

 

[elegance coral]

Joe:
Unfortunately, I have to go earn a living right now. I'll be back in the morning. I look forward to responding to your post. I think this may become a very interesting conversation.

Peace
EC

 

[JPMagyar]

Just for fun I went back and found the archived TOTM article:

Tank of the Month August 2002

This is Kedd's tank which is still going strong today and has a 5-6 inch DSB AND it was 4 years old at the time meaning it is now 15 years old.

 

[gbru316]

Just for fun I went back and found the archived TOTM article:

Tank of the Month August 2002

This is Kedd's tank which is still going strong today and has a 5-6 inch DSB.

Interesting, he isn't even using sand. Particle size is on the larger end, especially when discussing DSB's.