Why isn't my pH higher?

[nemmy]

I had severe low PH issues (7.57) due to a tank being in my bedroom. I could tell from my Apex that my pH dipped even worse when we went to bed so I knew co2 had a part to play.

So I drilled my skimmer (vertex Omega 150 with air all the way open) line outdoors and now the tank runs constant 7.86 to 7.99. Which we all know is perfectly acceptable. Now we all also know "don't chase pH" but I can't find out why I'm not hitting 8.0-8.2 ranges like natural sea water. I also calmed down my surface agitation to almost nothing so I don't pick up room co2, made sure my probe was calibrated, my refractometers were calibrated, and tested my params.

So 1.026, 7alk, 450 cal, 1500+ mag (had an oops it's elevated), running in its current location 2 years but sand and most water was ditched in a move, currently bare bottom. I have no coral so I have nothing drinking ALK. I'm not currently dosing or using kalk as I don't need the parameters boosted. I just figured a tank with 2 fish and 2 anemones wouldn't have an issue running at NSW level PH.

I do plan on getting back into hard coral, so I'd like the increased calcification in the future if possible. I just don't know why this tank won't run 8.0+

Fuge is out of the cards unless I do a remote canister one.

 

[mcgyvr]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

 

[nemmy]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

Read it 100x, still puzzled in all honesty. That's where I got the idea for the skimmer line and made sure to have all params checked before posting. As far as I can tell I'm perfectly in line with that article.

 

[mcgyvr]

You are expecting absolute "perfection" out of a system that simply cannot achieve it..
You are running 7.99 and wondering why you can't achieve 8.00 :spin1:

Have you performed the aeration test both inside and outside?

 

[nemmy]

You are expecting absolute "perfection" out of a system that simply cannot achieve it..
You are running 7.99 and wondering why you can't achieve 8.00 :spin1:

Have you performed the aeration test both inside and outside?

I'm not expecting absolute perfection. I'm trying to find out what is holding back absolute perfection. As in what is causing the lower pH if it's not my alk, cal, mag, or co2 concentration.

Aeration test outside is same as tank, aeration inside is .4 lower.

Yes I Max out at 7.99. I'm not striving for an extra .01 pH bump like you stated but I would like my lowest pH to be 8.0 which would be around a .15 increase.

If it's not co2, if it's not my parameters, what is holding me back? Unless my outdoor air quality just sucks where I live now. Really I want an answer to my question more than the pH bump. Because its baffling.

 

[Member No. 1]

Years ago, we never had an issue with pH running as low as it does now. I can remember having pH levels around 8.3-8.5 and never under 8. If it did drop that low, the reefing community would be up in arms. Over the years, Co2 has been rising slowly. Back in 2005, when we ran our tanks in the 8.3-8.5 range, atmospheric Co2 was less than 370ppm. Now today, (12-May-19) it's 415ppm. I have a Co2 meter inside my house, and as of this writing it's 412ppm. When I'm home, it's up in the 600's. A few people over and it's over 1,000.
So my point is, even if you open a window, pump air in from the outside, or whatever you do, with the world Co2 Levels at 415ppm, you will be hard pressed to get your tank much higher unless to manually manipulate the pH level. Ex. Co2 Scrubber, running Kalk, a buffer of sorts.
Some reading for you.

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-faster-co2.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=co2...9l2j69i60l5.5741j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[mcgyvr]

As in what is causing the lower pH if it's not my alk, cal, mag, or co2 concentration.

Don't think its not one/any/all of those..

Doing the indoor AND outdoor aeration test can tell you quite a bit..
Perform both of those and I'll bet you find the reason..

 

[nemmy]

Don't think its not one/any/all of those..

Doing the indoor AND outdoor aeration test can tell you quite a bit..
Perform both of those and I'll bet you find the reason..

Are you fully reading my posts? All of your responses have been about stuff I already know, stated, or referenced.

The results of indoor AND outdoor are above. Outdoor pH is the same as my tank, indoor is .4 lower. It's right there. The guy above you brought something to the table though.

 

[nemmy]

Years ago, we never had an issue with pH running as low as it does now. I can remember having pH levels around 8.3-8.5 and never under 8. If it did drop that low, the reefing community would be up in arms. Over the years, Co2 has been rising slowly. Back in 2005, when we ran our tanks in the 8.3-8.5 range, atmospheric Co2 was less than 370ppm. Now today, (12-May-19) it's 415ppm. I have a Co2 meter inside my house, and as of this writing it's 412ppm. When I'm home, it's up in the 600's. A few people over and it's over 1,000.
So my point is, even if you open a window, pump air in from the outside, or whatever you do, with the world Co2 Levels at 415ppm, you will be hard pressed to get your tank much higher unless to manually manipulate the pH level. Ex. Co2 Scrubber, running Kalk, a buffer of sorts.
Some reading for you.

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-faster-co2.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=co2...9l2j69i60l5.5741j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Thank you for your time and helpful response. It has to be something with the outside air co2 concentration then. I can rig a scrubber for a few days to see if a complete lack of co2 makes a difference I guess. At least it would be one more thing to rule out.

Also thank you for realizing this isn't another noob post about chasing pH.

 

[Member No. 1]

Thank you for your time and helpful response. It has to be something with the outside air co2 concentration then. I can rig a scrubber for a few days to see if a complete lack of co2 makes a difference I guess. At least it would be one more thing to rule out.

Also thank you for realizing this isn't another noob post about chasing pH.

Glad I could shed a little light.

 

[mcgyvr]

Are you fully reading my posts? All of your responses have been about stuff I already know, stated, or referenced.

The results of indoor AND outdoor are above. Outdoor pH is the same as my tank, indoor is .4 lower. It's right there. The guy above you brought something to the table though.

No I skimmed your last post on the way out the door. The outdoor test tells you all you need to know..

This is a chasing pH post..

 

[nemmy]

No I skimmed your last post on the way out the door. The outdoor test tells you all you need to know..

This is a chasing pH post..

It's a water chemistry post. Read the title. It says "why isn't my pH higher". I even stated "I want an answer to the question more than I want the pH to bump up."

If I was chasing pH I would be throwing in kalk, buffers, and all kinds of dumb stuff. I haven't chased the pH all I did was fix a co2 issue. Then was just curious on why it wasn't higher if everything is in spec.

We all wish we had 8-8.2 and everyone knows it. But if it's not in the cards it's not in the cards for me because I'm not dosing just to raise pH alone.

 

[bertoni]

It could be a measurement issue. That'd be my first guess. Either the pH measurement or the alkalinity could be the issue, with pH measurement issues being more likely. Outside aeration should get the pH beyond 8.0 after a few hours.

 

[atarjanyi]

First I did take the time to review your post. From the results of your aeration test both inside your house and outside your changes on your protein skimmer have maxed out that option. Adding CO2 scrubbing media to your intake air for your skimmer might be one option. Another might be to switching up to kalk for your evap makeup, it's pH runs over 12 and will sop up some of the excess CO2. My final suggestion is a reverse lit refugium or algae turf scrubber which will help with night drops along with nutrient control.

Don't look for the silver bullet. Instead go for the silver buck shoot, with each implemented one doing a small part of the over all rise in pH. Not just the reefs in the wild have to deal with acidification, but also to a greater extent our captive reefs due to the ever tighter envelope of our home exteriors. Modern homes are far less drafty than those built just a few decades ago. Add to that new windows and house wrap during a siding job and even old homes get tighter and tighter.

Alex

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Years ago, we never had an issue with pH running as low as it does now. I can remember having pH levels around 8.3-8.5 and never under 8. If it did drop that low, the reefing community would be up in arms. Over the years, Co2 has been rising slowly. Back in 2005, when we ran our tanks in the 8.3-8.5 range, atmospheric Co2 was less than 370ppm. Now today, (12-May-19) it's 415ppm. I have a Co2 meter inside my house, and as of this writing it's 412ppm. When I'm home, it's up in the 600's. A few people over and it's over 1,000.
So my point is, even if you open a window, pump air in from the outside, or whatever you do, with the world Co2 Levels at 415ppm, you will be hard pressed to get your tank much higher unless to manually manipulate the pH level. Ex. Co2 Scrubber, running Kalk, a buffer of sorts.
Some reading for you.

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-faster-co2.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=co2...9l2j69i60l5.5741j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Pretty sure that low pH readings caused by co2 has nothing to do with 415 ppm atmospheric levels. Its from high indoor co2 levels, & high indoor co2 levels have nil to do with atmospheric levels.

 

[Member No. 1]

I'm not expecting absolute perfection. I'm trying to find out what is holding back absolute perfection. As in what is causing the lower pH if it's not my alk, cal, mag, or co2 concentration.

Aeration test outside is same as tank, aeration inside is .4 lower.

Yes I Max out at 7.99. I'm not striving for an extra .01 pH bump like you stated but I would like my lowest pH to be 8.0 which would be around a .15 increase.

If it's not co2, if it's not my parameters, what is holding me back? Unless my outdoor air quality just sucks where I live now. Really I want an answer to my question more than the pH bump. Because its baffling.

Pretty sure that low pH readings caused by co2 has nothing to do with 415 ppm atmospheric levels. Its from high indoor co2 levels, & high indoor co2 levels have nil to do with atmospheric levels.

Scrubber Steve,
As you can see from the OP's post, he took water from the tank outside, aerated it, and the pH was unchanged. It also states that when he did the same inside due to higher Co2 levels it dropped .4. He did plum his skimmer to the outside.
So if he can't get his pH up outside, then yes it does have to do with atmospheric levels.

 

[nemmy]

Scrubber Steve,
As you can see from the OP's post, he took water from the tank outside, aerated it, and the pH was unchanged. It also states that when he did the same inside due to higher Co2 levels it dropped .4. He did plum his skimmer to the outside.
So if he can't get his pH up outside, then yes it does have to do with atmospheric levels.

Yeah he must have missed that I'm pumping outside air into my skimmer that's why outdoor test and tank are the same. Plus the only thing exchanging indoor gas is what's falling down to my sump creating some bubbles. But I'd assume a vertex Omega 150 with the air wide open is going to outcompete that.

As of now I raised my alk from 7 to 8 and it got me staying just above the 8.0 mark. After a few days I may see what it does if I run my alk at 9. I just at this moment remembered there's a coal burning plant about 1 mile from my house. Probably not helping.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Scrubber Steve,
As you can see from the OP's post, he took water from the tank outside, aerated it, and the pH was unchanged. It also states that when he did the same inside due to higher Co2 levels it dropped .4. He did plum his skimmer to the outside.
So if he can't get his pH up outside, then yes it does have to do with atmospheric levels.

Firstly, my post was mostly referring to your suggestion that "œYears ago, we never had an issue with pH running as low as it does now". Well years ago indoor co2 levels would rise just as high as they do now as a result from human respiration, non-flued gas cook tops & heaters, closed windows, etc. The average global atmospheric value of co2 has no effect on indoor levels increasing as a result of these influences. So, a tank's pH in a room with co2 at 1,000, or 2,000, or 3,000 ppm in the year 2005 would be affected just the same as a tank in the same conditions in the year 2050.

In 2005 what we didn't have was aquarium controllers measuring pH at all, let alone to the accuracy they do now, several times a day. What the average hobbyist used was a pH colorimetric test kit, & one would not be measuring pH at 3am in the morning, & would not get a result that could distinguish 7.8 from 8.1 with any certainty.

Now with nemmy's pH reading, of course co2 level will play a part in its overall value. But other factors will also play a part, & so to say that global average atmospheric co2 levels are preventing his pH being above 8.0 isn't correct.

 

[Member No. 1]

Firstly, my post was mostly referring to your suggestion that "œYears ago, we never had an issue with pH running as low as it does now". Well years ago indoor co2 levels would rise just as high as they do now as a result from human respiration, non-flued gas cook tops & heaters, closed windows, etc. The average global atmospheric value of co2 has no effect on indoor levels increasing as a result of these influences. So, a tank's pH in a room with co2 at 1,000, or 2,000, or 3,000 ppm in the year 2005 would be affected just the same as a tank in the same conditions in the year 2050.

In 2005 what we didn't have was aquarium controllers measuring pH at all, let alone to the accuracy they do now, several times a day. What the average hobbyist used was a pH colorimetric test kit, & one would not be measuring pH at 3am in the morning, & would not get a result that could distinguish 7.8 from 8.1 with any certainty.

Now with nemmy's pH reading, of course co2 level will play a part in its overall value. But other factors will also play a part, & so to say that global average atmospheric co2 levels are preventing his pH being above 8.0 isn't correct.

We most certainly did have constant pH testers using a probe for our tanks.
Neptune AquaController III read and controlled tank & Ca Reactor pH.
My point has nothing to do with inside Co2 levels. He is seeing that the pH in his tank water, when taken outside, areated, would have the same pH level.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

We most certainly did have constant pH testers using a probe for our tanks.
Neptune AquaController III read and controlled tank & Ca Reactor pH.

Ok, I didn't know that, but the average hobbyist didn't use them.

My point has nothing to do with inside Co2 levels. He is seeing that the pH in his tank water, when taken outside, areated, would have the same pH level.

And the outside co2 levels would play a part. But it is not preventing his pH from being above 8.0.
You don't know the accuracy of his measurement,,, or even the co2 levels specific to his exact location. There are other factors besides co2 that determine overall pH values, & as bertoni said "It could be a measurement issue. That'd be my first guess. Either the pH measurement or the alkalinity could be the issue, with pH measurement issues being more likely. Outside aeration should get the pH beyond 8.0 after a few hours".

My pH is constantly 8.2 to 8.3 & I live on the same planet as nemmy.