Why not make an offer

[HippieSmell]

1: Yes it is. Communism is a political system which uses socialism as an economic system.
2: I never said it was.
3: America isn't a democracy

OK, capitalism isn't a republic, then. You're conflating economic models with social models. Most of Europe is socialist, and our ally. What's so evil about Europe?

I would also point out that the US isn't a pure capitalist state, either.

 

[Breadman03]

Why not make an offer

Yep.



I always list a price with "OBO", like say $100 OBO. If someone emails me and says, "What's your best/lowest price?", I just reply with "$100 Or Best Offer".



That said, I NEVER get mad at lowball offers. Lots of people do, and they need to be thicker skinned. Like people who list "NO LOW BALLS!" in their ad. I just skip over those if I'm a buyer. If I get a lowball offer, I reply nicely that the lowest I would take is $x. I have sold several times to people who initially offered ridiculous amounts but later came up to something reasonable.

I once low balled someone for 5 Radions. He asked if I was joking. I told him that I was serious, had the cash for all five ready to go and that he wouldn't need to deal with piecing them out across multiple buyers. We agreed on a slightly higher price and now we're FB buddies.

There's a big difference between making a lowball offer to negotiate from and being an ignorant buyer who is a pain to deal with.

 

[Bent]

OK, capitalism isn't a republic, then. You're conflating economic models with social models. Most of Europe is socialist, and our ally. What's so evil about Europe?

I would also point out that the US isn't a pure capitalist state, either.

you have to conflate socialism and communism, one would not exist without the other.

I never said europe was evil either, I was merely making the point to the other gentleman (or woman) that demonizing capitalism and romanticizing socialism is completely backward considering the sizeable body count that socialist governments have racked up over the course of a century.

 

[gone fishin]

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.

Never been camping I take it.:lol:

 

[Breadman03]

Why not make an offer

never been Infantry i take it.:lol:

ftfm

 

[CStrickland]

I used to be nervous about haggling, until I lived in a country where it was more part of the culture. Now I don't mind, and it can even be a fun interaction like a friendly competition.

you have to conflate socialism and communism, one would not exist without the other.

But when you do that it sounds like you think Canada or the Netherlands have the same body-counts as the USSR or China. Socialism absolutely exists without communism, and without authoritarianism.

 

[Bent]

I used to be nervous about haggling, until I lived in a country where it was more part of the culture. Now I don't mind, and it can even be a fun interaction like a friendly competition.



But when you do that it sounds like you think Canada or the Netherlands have the same body-counts as the USSR or China. Socialism absolutely exists without communism, and without authoritarianism.

Those places aren't pure socialist and it's not the individual country I have a problem with. Socialist economics was born from communism and other forms of authoritative models. If a form of capitalist republic government like the USA was so evil and profitable, more dictators would be doing it, they aren't. There is a reason that socialism is the economic model of choice for evil power hungry dictators.

Again, I have zero desire to dabble in an economic model that literally millions of people like many members of my family and many other families, have died fighting. Just my opinion.

But anyways, I'm derailing this thread. Sorry.

 

[hkgar]

Socialism is not communism. Capitalism is not democracy.

One is a government system and one is an economic system. Many don't any longer understand the difference as the government has become far too involved in the economic system.

PS. We are nt supposed to be a democracy, but rather a republic.

 

[pisanoal]

I'm not criticizing anyone for having a different opinion on this. As you point out, its only because there are differences of opinion that the conversation is worth having.

It goes both ways. The conversation is interesting to me because it blows my mind anyone would defend haggling. I find it incredibly rude and will literally walk away in most cases. But its worth having this conversation because it helps both sides realize where the other is coming from. It tempers my reaction. Instead of cussing the person out I am now inclined to instead quietly walk away.

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.

As a society, we've moved beyond haggling for almost everything. It only remains for big ticket items (houses and cars) and used items. I'm looking forward to the future when we move beyond haggling altogether. In the meantime I've avoid it as much as possible, and argue we should not expect it or encourage it.

I had to laugh at the crapping in a hole in the ground... Haha. You bring up a valid point. However, even that still has its place in our country... Ever been back country camping? Its pretty rude to just leave a turd sitting out in the open, and I'd really rather not have the wilderness littered with gas stations and rest stops. I appreciate all those things when I get back, but they belong where they belong and they don't where they don't. My point is, just because something is outdated, doesn't mean it doesn't still have its proper place in our world. There are many more examples, antique cars, forging by hand, painting a picture, etc. These are all outdated practices made "better", faster, more convenient by modern technology. Yet some antique cars are worth more then most new ones, a hand forged knife costs 10-100x as much as what you would by at the store, and a lot of times is better, and the same goes for paintings.

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[pisanoal]

I also hope you don't take offense to the "arguing" as for the most point I try not to cause any. I appreciate the discussions.

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[pisanoal]

One is a government system and one is an economic system. Many don't any longer understand the difference as the government has become far too involved in the economic system.

PS. We are nt supposed to be a democracy, but rather a republic.

Democratic Rebuplic, although we function more like a straight republic more and more...

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[Bent]

I also hope you don't take offense to the "arguing" as for the most point I try not to cause any. I appreciate the discussions.

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Same. Sometimes there's a fine line between arguing and discussing. Especially on the internet where body language and tone of voice are removed from the equation. I wasn't out to argue, just discuss.

 

[cleverbs]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

 

[jrp1588]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

If i can save $25 on a $600 fixture, I'm going to save that $25. That's over an hour worth of work at my payscale, time I'll never get back. I don't usually dicker around with low dollar items, but if it's over about $50, you better believe I'm going to try to shave a bit off if I can. I'm not made of money.

 

[scooters reef]

So, Cleverbs, you were quite happy getting bulbs at only 45% of new price. Let's say you regularly see them sell for 50-60%, so that was a good deal and you took it. Now, someone lists one at 75%. Is that still a good deal to you? I'd assume you would pass, knowing another will come along at some point wanting less than 60%. If passing on it anyway, "haggling" would be no more than letting the seller know that you would be willing to pay up to 50% of new, but will otherwise pass. Because you already know what it's worth to you, as well as the frequency in which the item sells in the range you feel is fair.

 

[Potatohead]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

I tend to agree. If the price is fair I am happy, I don't particularly care about the last few percentage points.

 

[CStrickland]

Those places aren't pure socialist and it's not the individual country I have a problem with. Socialist economics was born from communism and other forms of authoritative models. If a form of capitalist republic government like the USA was so evil and profitable, more dictators would be doing it, they aren't. There is a reason that socialism is the economic model of choice for evil power hungry dictators.

Again, I have zero desire to dabble in an economic model that literally millions of people like many members of my family and many other families, have died fighting. Just my opinion.

But anyways, I'm derailing this thread. Sorry.

I think you are coming close to a 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. Varying degrees of collective ownership of the means of production have allowed a great many countries to increase standards of living, and general welfare. Of course if you dismiss the peaceful and thriving democratic socialist states as impure, you are left with more authoritarian and communist ones. But then in order to make a fair comparison, you would have to dismiss the 'impure'ly capitalist ones. Like the US since even before the New Deal. Is there a purely capitalist state even? Because by your logic if pure capitalism were so beneficial, many countries would be doing it.

I think rather, it is the power-hungry dictator part that is problematic like all centralized power. As they say, it corrupts absolutely. This is true whether in the form of communist bureaucracy, non-substantive democracy, nationalist demagoguery, or the disproportionate influence of the bourgeoisie in capitalist systems. For me, the key is self-determination - the better system is the one that affords individuals greater opportunity to pursue their chosen destiny. Socialist democracies with decentralized power structures do a very good job of that IMO, certainly better than communism or pure capitalism.

PS some of your arguments sound like you might be confusing socialism with not only communism but also state capitalism, where a (usually authoritarian) government directly controls capital and production as opposed to the workers as represented by the state.

 

[hkgar]

Democratic Rebuplic, although we function more like a straight republic more and more...

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No it was originally called a Representative Republic. BIG BIG difference. Sadly we are becoming more and more a democracy. Rule of law (Republic) rule of man (Democracies)

 

[Bent]

I think you are coming close to a 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. Varying degrees of collective ownership of the means of production have allowed a great many countries to increase standards of living, and general welfare. Of course if you dismiss the peaceful and thriving democratic socialist states as impure, you are left with more authoritarian and communist ones. But then in order to make a fair comparison, you would have to dismiss the 'impure'ly capitalist ones. Like the US since even before the New Deal. Is there a purely capitalist state even? Because by your logic if pure capitalism were so beneficial, many countries would be doing it.

I think rather, it is the power-hungry dictator part that is problematic like all centralized power. As they say, it corrupts absolutely. This is true whether in the form of communist bureaucracy, non-substantive democracy, nationalist demagoguery, or the disproportionate influence of the bourgeoisie in capitalist systems. For me, the key is self-determination - the better system is the one that affords individuals greater opportunity to pursue their chosen destiny. Socialist democracies with decentralized power structures do a very good job of that IMO, certainly better than communism or pure capitalism.

PS some of your arguments sound like you might be confusing socialism with not only communism but also state capitalism, where a (usually authoritarian) government directly controls capital and production as opposed to the workers as represented by the state.

With respect, much respect, we agree to disagree my friend.. :beer:

:love2:

 

[pisanoal]

No it was originally called a Representative Republic. BIG BIG difference. Sadly we are becoming more and more a democracy. Rule of law (Republic) rule of man (Democracies)

John Adams among others called a representative democracy, not a representative republic. But I digress as its way off topic and depends on which definitions you use, as they are pretty close depending on the source.