why only 2 clowns?

[twelvejewelz]

Thanks everyone lets see those pics please ctlegacy!! .Im not saying im going to have more than 2 or not im just curious why i always hear this.I have a pair of ocellaris now that are 2 1/2 years old and are doing great, i have no anemone and they host some gsp and zoas.Im curious though ctlegacy with all those different types of clowns have u witnessed any mating/spawning behavior yet?Are there any "odd" couples that seem to have formed in the tank? Also another question for everyone..When breeding clowns would you suggest its better to have a BTA in the tank or not? I see alot of breeding tanks that consist of only the sponge filter or airstone and nothing else. I would think the anemone would cause the clowns to feel more safe and less stressed no?thanks again!And people please post pics if you have more than a pair of clowns and different kinds of clowns in your tanks id love to see

 

[ctlegacy]

The only odd balls I have are a black osci and an orange osci. Otherwise they are all in pairs or singles, but most of my pairs were bought as pairs. I don't know if I've had an spawn or not. I have a lot of hiding spots in my tank, but I haven't seen any eggs.

 

[bues0022]

Here's my advice...... You should do whatever makes you happy. You should do whatever you can afford, and you should do whatever YOU can live with.

I seriously can't believe I just read this. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU!!! As per your argument below this about sea lions....attitudes like yours are the EXACT reason there are laws against keeping such animals privately. Rich people who want to see said animal day-in and day-out will pay huge amounts of money for them, not thinking about the health and longevity of the creature. If it dies - oh well - it made them happy for a little bit.

The goal in keeping a healthy aquarium is not just to stuff a bunch of things in a glass box to look pretty - that is a side effect. The purpose is to enjoy a small slice of the ocean in our own homes by providing a low-stress atmosphere and conditions as close to natural as possible. We need to be RESPONSIBLE and provide our animals with the best husbandry as possible.

If you have noticed the condition of our oceans lately, I truly believe that within my lifetime the vast majority of things we see in our tanks will be restricted significantly from collection. Only good husbandry towards our tanks and reverence for their lives, not just your own satisfaction, will help reduce the biological impact this hobby makes to the fragile reefs and the longevity of this hobby as we know it.

PLEASE do not recommend this irresponsible attitude towards reefing to others. Noobies who may not know better will read your thoughts, take them as truths, and perpetuate rash behavior. Did/Has this worked for you? For now yes. You have to recognize that history and mother nature is severely stacked against you. Can you put a lion and a zebra in a small cage at a zoo and have if work? Perhaps short term, maybe even for a while. But eventually instinct will prevail and zebra becomes dinner.

Last point - your attitude and ideas towards anemones is also out of place. One-year is a "rule-of-thumb" for several reasons. 1) many noobs want to start a tank and toss lots of things in. By telling them to wait, they will hopefully spend the time waiting to read about better husbandry to make sure they can provide the necessary requirements. 2) nothing magical happens to the water after one year. You should know that. You should also know that new tanks are unstable due to the liverock/sand being populated by beneficial bacteria. Stability is key to keeping the creatures in our tanks - and "one-year" is plenty of time for the large spikes to pass, and the tank becomes mature enough to handle slight swings in water quality better. You are not better than anyone else just because you happened to make it work after a short time. Plenty of people have. I put my first RBTA in my tank after 5 months. In my current tank, I added a haddoni after 3 weeks. Life situations and tank conditions prescribed/allowed for the latter, but in no way would I ever recommend someone do this just because it worked for me.

I want to sum up this entire post by saying to everyone - not just the original poster - that just because something did or did not work for you, doesn't make you better or worse than anyone else or make those methods the correct or wrong way to do things. Don't say something can work easily just because you did it. Though similar, each of our tanks is it's own dynamic microecosystem with its own complexities. There are generalized recommendations that should be be accounted for and attempt to match as closely as possible, but realize that what worked once will not always work. What works now may not continue through the future as your tank continues to grow and evolve.

There have been people who have gone over in Niagara Falls in a barrel and lived - does that make it a good idea and something that will always work?

 

[bues0022]

I'm not saying those who say otherwise are wrong, I just think so much of this hobby is situational. So much "knowledge" is just regurgitated that it almost becomes a cardinal rule.

The problem is that someone will read this post touting the ability to put any number of mixed species of clowns in a tank - go put 20 mixed clownfish in a 24 gallon biocube and be mad when it doesn't work. I agree much is regurgitated, but so can exceptions and mistruths.

Just do your own research, READ REEFING BOOKS , and make your own decisions.

I couldn't agree more, however, I find books can become outdated quite quickly with the rate of advancement these days. Reefing magazines tend to stay more current/cutting edge.

 

[PayasoDelMar]

:thumbsup: well said

 

[Toddrtrex]

bues0022 --- great post. You said that a lot better then I could have, and I agree completely with that post.



In addition... Saying something has worked for 9 months is NOTHING. Clowns can/will live up to (( and sure over )) 20 years. And as for anemones, they should outlive all of us. My oldest one has been in my care for 10+ years, and to me, that is nothing.

 

[kerusso316]

There is one more issue in this bebate. Tank raised fish are much easier to handle than wild caught fish. Fish from the same batch are by far easer to group together. I have 75 GSMin a 20 gallion tank.They love each other. They are all from the same batch. Mixing clowns can be done..... It is for advaced hobbiest. I have 36 spawning pairs, been raising clowns for several years and I don't group clowns in my 150 display. My point is, are we mixin the pairs for their benifet or ours. The responsible way is to ask "how can I help my anamals live a better life"if you ask that question,you can't go wrong. My other point ....it was stated ..."can you live with the outcome.". You may be able to... But how pretty is a dead fish. There are some here that are trying to group..... And they don't even have a quarintine tank for crying out loud. Once again loud and clear. THIS IS FOR ADVANCED HOBBIEST. You can tell alot about a Person by how he treats his animals. I'm done now

 

[Brandon1652]

As for grouping clowns, I thought three was the no-no number, i.e., you should have 1, a pair, or an odd number greater than three. Am I remembering this correctly?

I have large groups of clown often, but with long term success rarely. I would not try it, and I would only suggest this to an experienced aquarist.

I can't believe I missed that. I meant I have *seen* large groups of clown often... Sorry for the confusion. The rest was meant as is.

 

[Ethan_W]

@ the OP, the reason that guy has 27 clowns in his tank was because they were all from the same clutch of eggs and they all grew up together and never got separated.

the reason you see many clownfish in the same anemone in the wild isnt because they all get along. its because they are all smaller, weaker males waiting for the 1 dominate female to either reject the male she has partnered with now due to poor housekeeping with her eggs, or for something else to happen to him so they can try to take its place. the dominate male of the bunch is often constantly guarding his den/spot in the anemone and fending off the other males to keep them away from his lady.

in the sea, they can venture off anytime they feel threatened and look for a new nem with a female. in your tank, theyre not so lucky

 

[ctlegacy]

First let me say that I don't really condone putting "sea lions and sharks" in ANY tank. I tend to be overly sarcastic at times to try to drive a point.

I do think that it's not really ANYONES business what you do with your tank. I don't condone putting sharks in reef tanks, but I'd never be a critic of it either. We aren't talking about "Endangered Species" here. In most cases we aren't even talking about animals removed from the ocean. We are talking about CLOWN FISH and ANEMONES, which most of the time were born in a bucket in some guy named scott's basement. I do realize that you can go out and buy "Wild Caught Clown Fish", but for the most part (and all of mine) are tank raised. As far as BTA's go, I don't even know if you can buy a "Wild Caught BTA", but I know I've never seen one.

Why arent you tree huggers jumping all over the people who make "Frozen Silversides" or "Feeder Fish"? It is the all time EXTREME killing of live fish that your bleeding hearts love to try to put an end to. Oh wait, it becomes okay when its for feeding your anemones????

I just think it's unfair for a bunch of people who "think they know what's best for you" to force feed their views down everyone's throat.

Let's just assume your right for a minute. Maybe I should "get a conscience" and bag up all of my clown fish, and let them go in the ocean. Guess what.....THEY ALL DIE! Not a single one of my clown fish would last 9 minutes in the ocean, but they live a pretty sweet life in my basement, and if all 20 of them died tomorrow, I'd go buy 20 more the next day. I may even go out and buy a breeding pair to help others with their "dirty little secrets" of wanting more than 2 clowns. Shoot I might even let people buy the babies to feed to other fish.

All I ever ask is that people keep in mind what we are talking about. Also understand that my feelings change drastically when we are talking about removing animals from the ocean to put in a tank.

I really just hope that you don't take the same attitude about cows, or corn, because I'm a huge fan of their relentless slaughter to bring steak and potatoes to my dinner plate.

Now go have fun with your 2 pairs of clowns.

 

[phil519]

There have been people who have gone over in Niagara Falls in a barrel and lived - does that make it a good idea and something that will always work?

+10000 lol.

@chris:
wow - raising baby clowns to feed other fish. Even if you are being sarcastic your examples are pretty sad.

Attention-getters like you come and go on the boards all the time. Even your signature screams "i want attention". It's sad because I'd be interested in seeing how your tank runs in the long run. But to proclaim success after 9 months isn't right. If you can't defend your position then please do not try and attack others with labels. While I have nothing against "tree huggers" you are obviously saying that in a scornful manner.

 

[elegance coral]

There is a huge difference between killing one animal so that another may live, and torturing animals. Even with our dogs and cats, other animals must die for them to survive. We slaughter vast numbers of cows to feed ourselves, but we don't beat them over long periods of time until they pass away from stress or an accumulation of injuries. You can not compare packing a bunch of aggressive animals into the same small area until they beat each other to death, and humanely killing an animal to feed another.

 

[ctlegacy]

Wow.... That's all I can say.

I wouldn't ever feed clowns to other fish. Pretty much for the same reason I don't eat venison (deer meat, not sure if I spelled venison right), it's just not on the menu for me. But honestly as a person who plans to breed clown fish, I don't care if the people who buy them plan on drying them out and making earings out of them. I think its sick, but once they are out of my "buckets", it's not my decision, and unlike most people here, I just don't feel like it's my business.

I have only had my 150 for about 9 months like I said. I had 2 nanos for about a year prior to that, and we've had a tank in our office at work for as long as I can remember. Which as the owner of the company, I really didn't take care of it. I did add all the clown fish though . It has the largest clarki I've ever seen in it. I'm sure they get bigger, but I just havent seen them. I guess what I'm saying is although, I'm not a 20 year vet, I don't feel as though I'm "new" to the hobby either. I understand, some of you will argue that to the death, but again, it's my opinion. don't know if it would hold up in court.

Now the science......

FISH DO NOT FEEL PAIN!

FISH DO NOT EXPERIENCE EMOTION!

Fish are the most primitive creatures that most of us will ever come into contact with. They do not suffer. They don't feel pain. They don't feel aggression. They don't "feel" anything.

That is not a guess. That's science. Their brains do not have a "developed" cerebral cortex. As a matter of fact, you can remove the entire brain of a fish leaving only the brain stem and spinal cord, and it would live quite normal. They understand SURVIVAL. Eat to live. Live to mate. That's it.

That being said.... I AM MAKING A PRETTY BOX FULL OF SALT WATER AND MINDLESS FISH FOR MY OWN ENJOYMENT. It's sad to me that anyone here can't admit the same thing.

I don't have any false perceptions that I am furthing the science of home aquatics, or that because I have 20 clown fish, 18 people will have to do without them. I just dont understand why you do.

My answer is still the same. If you want to buy 300 clown fish and put them in a 5 gallon nano, it's your money. I would actually go one step further and say learn to breed them so you can propogate your own. Your home aquarium is limited only to the lenth, depth, width, and capacity of your WALLET (and your imagination).

 

[ctlegacy]

P.S. Phil.... I think I can and am defending my position. I don't "scream" for attention. I scream for facts. I just want someone to show me the science behind cutting up anemones with scissors. Or please do tell how it's different because silversides are intended to be fed to other fish or anemones.

People just need to get a grip on what is important.... seriously. We breed fish like sea monkeys. There are millions of clown fish with millions more in buckets in scott's basement. If they don't make it. They make more. I know the tree huggers are plotting a trip to my house right now, but it's true.

You don't have to agree with me. I just don't think people should be scared to add a fish that they want to their aquarium. Whats the worst that can happen??? A clown fish might be killed....oh the humanity....there are 40 more JUST LIKE IT probably clones of it at the pet store (or scott's basement).

so again, do what makes YOU happy. Don't worry about anyone else thinks. For every horror story about clown fish, there's a non-horror story. Probably more but most people who have more than a pair of clown fish are afraid to post because of the harrassment they get from the gods of reef keeping. I know other people with multiple clown pairs. I even have a local fish store owner who is setting up a clown tank as we speak. That's it.

 

[kerusso316]

First, Fish do feel. After you breed for a while,you will see this on a regular basis. The fact that you don't know this shows a lack of experiance.You stated "Whats the worst that can happen??? A clown fish might be killed....oh the humanity....there are 40 more JUST LIKE IT" this attitude shows YOU don't feel. An attitude you mistakingly bestow on your animals. Second ,I am no tree hugger, I hunt, fish and have traped. I sell missform fish as feeders.I do not, however,kill my cull fish. I gave them a chance on life.I feel like I owe them the best I can give. They live full heathy lives "in my basement", or get fed back into the circle of life. Third, I see people young in the hobbie. They post alot and take positions strongly. They also take others words personaly. Neither of these is right .It is much better to read alot and reserve your opinion. This way it is easy to change you opinion with out your pride getting in the way. Your opinion shows you are young in the hobbie. Kind of like a new draft walking on the battle field as viewed by a fellow with two tours of action. Your lack of experiance is glaringly obvious. Once again...read here..... Listen....take note......pay attention..... News flash....we all know " grouping" can be done. The question is......Is it the best thing for our fish? That is the question that you should be asking... It is more profitable to read than to speak.

 

[AJSTITAN14]

My answer is still the same. If you want to buy 300 clown fish and put them in a 5 gallon nano, it's your money. I would actually go one step further and say learn to breed them so you can propogate your own. Your home aquarium is limited only to the lenth, depth, width, and capacity of your WALLET (and your imagination).

He does not appear to be able to understand anything in terms other than money. Trying to discuss any other systems of value will be like shouting at a brick wall.

For instance it is obvious that 300 clowns in a nano would fail. So, taking out the hyperbole and even saying 6 we can recommend against it because its overwhelmingly likely that they will tear each other apart fighting for territory. Money aside we can spare someone the expense of emotional frustration and loss of time trying to set up a futile arrangement doomed to failure. Moving on to propagation, we read between the lines that "breeding clowns is profitable". Never mind the time and effort involved. Breeding clowns is something that requires a whole new level of commitment and investment over and above having clowns in a tank. Recommending breeding to someone who wants to know if they can have multiple pairs of clowns in a tank is laughably flawed logic. The final comment here speaks for itself.

 

[MarinaP]

Do stay with us, AJSTITAN14 :thumbsup:

 

[AJSTITAN14]

Now the science......

FISH DO NOT FEEL PAIN!

FISH DO NOT EXPERIENCE EMOTION!

Fish are the most primitive creatures that most of us will ever come into contact with. They do not suffer. They don't feel pain. They don't feel aggression. They don't "feel" anything.

That is not a guess. That's science. Their brains do not have a "developed" cerebral cortex. As a matter of fact, you can remove the entire brain of a fish leaving only the brain stem and spinal cord, and it would live quite normal. They understand SURVIVAL. Eat to live. Live to mate. That's it.

It's not modern science and it's certainly not established as fact. Emerging research is beginning to suggest that fish do feel pain.

 

[ctlegacy]

I'd check who is behind the emerging research. There are always going to be people who think there are, but physically they just do no have the brain capacity to facilitate feeling pain. There are people who feel that cows and chickens feel pain. They are far closer to correct than people making the same arguement for fish. Someday, I will tell you who I am, and what I do. Although I may be new to the saltwater aquarium world, I am not new to science. Particularly the nervous system. We can argue about whether or not fish feel pain then. For now, let's just assume I'm stupid and have no clue what I'm talking about. It's more fun for me that way.

It is about money. Clearly it is, has been , will be and should be about money.

For a "Balanced Eco System" all that needs to happen is 2 mating clown fish in their 25 year life span need to have 2 living offspring before they die, who in turn must have 2 living offspring before they die, etc. etc. etc. When the average clutch is 300 - 500 eggs, the 3rd living offspring upsets the eco-system. Obviously this is okay by me, but hopefully even the non-science people can understand that.

I'd also like to be 100% crystal clear that I am not a feeler.... These are fish to me. That's it. They are pretty little fish that I enjoy watching darting in and out of their anemones. That's all. If one dies. I will get another. Probably 2 actually just so I have a back up.

Call me selfish, call me whatever, but I have the fish for MY ENJOYMENT not for any other reason. I think anyone who says otherwise is only fooling themselves.

I do still love all of you and hope that we can stay friends, but I do feel like I have to defend my position. Talk to you soon.

Chris

 

[Toddrtrex]

I'd check who is behind the emerging research. There are always going to be people who think there are, but physically they just do no have the brain capacity to facilitate feeling pain. There are people who feel that cows and chickens feel pain. They are far closer to correct than people making the same arguement for fish. Someday, I will tell you who I am, and what I do. Although I may be new to the saltwater aquarium world, I am not new to science. Particularly the nervous system. We can argue about whether or not fish feel pain then. For now, let's just assume I'm stupid and have no clue what I'm talking about. It's more fun for me that way.

It is about money. Clearly it is, has been , will be and should be about money.

For a "Balanced Eco System" all that needs to happen is 2 mating clown fish in their 25 year life span need to have 2 living offspring before they die, who in turn must have 2 living offspring before they die, etc. etc. etc. When the average clutch is 300 - 500 eggs, the 3rd living offspring upsets the eco-system. Obviously this is okay by me, but hopefully even the non-science people can understand that.

I'd also like to be 100% crystal clear that I am not a feeler.... These are fish to me. That's it. They are pretty little fish that I enjoy watching darting in and out of their anemones. That's all. If one dies. I will get another. Probably 2 actually just so I have a back up.

Call me selfish, call me whatever, but I have the fish for MY ENJOYMENT not for any other reason. I think anyone who says otherwise is only fooling themselves.

I do still love all of you and hope that we can stay friends, but I do feel like I have to defend my position. Talk to you soon.

Chris

Honestly, I don't care one bit who you are. And from reading your posts (( and the attitude that you show in them )), I am going to give very little credit to what you say.

IMO, the way you consider your fish/charges is very bad for this hobby, and (( and I almost didn't say the following because I think it will make you happy )), I find your caviler attitude towards your fish disgusting.