Why put lime in your ATO?

[Sk8r]

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>
To use lime correctly you need to 'set' the alkalinity where you want it, ditto the calcium, and ditto the magnesium: those 3 are locked in a triangular relationship. Lime-addition provides the calcium that tends to deplete---but if buffer is depleting, having all 3 of those 'up' should also stabilize/hold the buffer situation, ergo the ph should behave better.
My advice would be to try just the triangle thing first. Then if it still falls, add just a teaspoon of lime per gallon---especially if you are using a cheaper fish-only salt, which does not contain as much calcium. For the record, I use Oceanic salt, which is high in calcium and magnesium: it costs more, but it saves me hassle.
The key is keeping a little log of your tests so you can see not only the state of your tank but the direction it is tending. A .001 a day movement downward indicates something going on, you see? So you know you can correct that.
It's why I advocate logbooks and weekly tests---even daily tests, when you're working on a situation. But always give a new dose about 8 hours to echo through the system before you test: then it will be more accurate.
HTH.

 

[reefer_new]

Thax Sk8r -
My Alk Cal are good Not sure about Mag
i will get a test for that

i wanted to dose kalk just to minimize the ph swings that i get

is Kalk water in my ATO good for that??

 

[Sk8r]

You need to test all 3, alk, cal, and mg, to decide what conditions exist in your tank: these 3 readings exist in linkage, and alk itself is related to ph. In point of fact, I don't even test ph in my tank, ---if my alk is ok, it's not going to be disastrous. So if you will test all 3 of these, and concentrate on the alk, you probably will fix your ph problem right there. If it will stay stable once the readings match those in my sig line [alk 8.3-9.3, etc] then you don't need to do anything else and a kalk dose will probably not help. Again, all 3 are related, and one affects the other. Get all 3 to the levels in my sig and your water quality including ph should be ok.

 

[philosophile]

How much is too much calcium in your system? last time I tried dosing kalk, my CA went up to something like 500. I never saw anything precipitate out of the water, (water never turned cloudy).

 

[Sk8r]

That's why you start with one tsp or even a half tsp [in a smaller system] to see what your tank will use up. When starting out, go smaller than you think you need, and test esp the alk and cal daily. [As long as the mg holds out, they won't fall, but they might start rising]. I'd try to hold it to 420, max 430---because if you od on calcium and it precipitates, you can have one heckuva pump-cleaning job. [I had a bad alk test once, and kept dumping it in, stupid me!---and yep, a nice little mess in the hoses and my pump: the good news is, white vinegar dissolves lime accretions pretty fast.] Just test, test, test, and set some numbers you don't want to go over. Don't over do either alk or cal: keep within 10 of the max recommended; and don't go over 1500 in mg, either---for one thing because mg is your stability, and that high a reading won't let anything else fall until it's used up, and mg depletes very, very slowly! Alk depletes fastest; cal depletes real fast only when corals are taking it, though it's faster to run out than mg is. It's not going to hurt you as a one time thing---again, it's very forgiving---but generally try to keep your parameters close to what I have in my sig; and if you really don't like your chemistry, you can always start doing water changes---that helps bring levels down. Usually, though, you just let them fall. Remember corals love stability. They don't 'trust' easily and can take a while to really expand---but once they do, they can really suck down an amazing amount. It's all relative, however: the corals in my 54 are fewer than, say, the TOTM, which may be a 200 gallon tank. So number of corals being fed does matter.

Just remember: little tank, little doses. Few corals, little doses.

 

[Essense]

How long does it take for the Kalk to mix before I should either add the solution to my ATO, or if mixing directly in ATO, before turning on my ATO pump?

Also if i'm reading correclty, can I add enough kalk for say 50 gallons, to a 5 gallong ATO resovoir and just replenish the kalk on the 11th time I fill up my ATO with RODI?

 

[kevantheman35]

You stated "you can't add calcium and alk within 8 hours of eachother" But when two part dosing such as b-ionic, don't you dose both the alk and calcium at about the same time?

 

[glenns]

My BRS order of Kalk arrived yesterday. My tank currently has one of each of the following: large, small and frag monti plates. An it has an acro frag. So I figured I should start out with the 1tsp/gallon, but I went a little lower and started with 4tsp/5gal.

Then I found this thread and now I'm a little concerned about the amount of lime water my ATO will add a time. So I haven't started dosing. I'm currently using around 1 gallon of top off per day. But my sump is like Melev's 20L conversion sump. It has a short baffle and egg crate separating the return pump from the refugium. It is probably a 15 x 12 inch chamber. The float switch is supposed to be sensitive to 1/8" change in water level. So my lifter pump is going to add more than a few drops at a time. Is this going to be a major problem?

 

[thegrun]

How long does it take for the Kalk to mix before I should either add the solution to my ATO, or if mixing directly in ATO, before turning on my ATO pump?

Also if i'm reading correclty, can I add enough kalk for say 50 gallons, to a 5 gallong ATO resovoir and just replenish the kalk on the 11th time I fill up my ATO with RODI?

I would wait 4 hours minimum before I turn the pump on if you mix it in the reservoir. I premix mine before I add it to the top-off container so I only wait an hour for the mix to settle. In theory you could over load the mix and just add water, but I'm not sure that it would absorb as much lime if you did it that way. I just muck out the reservoir once a year to get rid of the residue rather than try to get it to dissolve in pure water.

 

[thegrun]

My BRS order of Kalk arrived yesterday. My tank currently has one of each of the following: large, small and frag monti plates. An it has an acro frag. So I figured I should start out with the 1tsp/gallon, but I went a little lower and started with 4tsp/5gal.

Then I found this thread and now I'm a little concerned about the amount of lime water my ATO will add a time. So I haven't started dosing. I'm currently using around 1 gallon of top off per day. But my sump is like Melev's 20L conversion sump. It has a short baffle and egg crate separating the return pump from the refugium. It is probably a 15 x 12 inch chamber. The float switch is supposed to be sensitive to 1/8" change in water level. So my lifter pump is going to add more than a few drops at a time. Is this going to be a major problem?

I don't see that as a problem. My ATO adds about a 1/2 cup at a time in my 28 nano tank, if I did the math correctly you would be adding about 1 1/2 cups at a time which souldn't be an issue if your tank is 50 gallons or more. I use a very small pump so the flow is low into the sump. You wouldn't want to dump a full cup and a half into the sump in 10 seconds, it's better for it to be spread out over a minute or so.

 

[acrohead500ppm]

Dripping kalk can completely satisfy a coral-packed tank of 50 gallons, no problem. It probably can do the same for a 75. When you get above 100, it's a question related to how packed you are.

great informative thread BUT this statement is inaccurate.

a 50 gallon coral packed tank will exhaust the system's water calcium levels faster than a larger 75 or 100gal tank. Its all in correlation to mass of calcifying organisms vs water mass.

In larger systems the mass of water "buffers" the drop in calcium as corals use it up,
______ cubic centimeters mass of coral (/) _____gallons of system water = the calcium load on each gallon.

so actually a packed 50gallon tank will have a higher demand for calcium that may not be able to be kept up with using just settled kalkwassser (which is German for chalk water, not lime water BTW) via evaporation.

good write up though.

 

[acrohead500ppm]

sk8r,

I currently have a tunze osmolator in a DIY acrylic cube that hold about 4.5 gallons of RODI. Using Tropic Marin Pro, I am always low on my PH level and my alk as well. I do not use a Calc reactor, thus I add TLF PH buffer into the ATO tank. After reading this, I feel that I might want to switch to kalk in the ATO rather than the PH buffer?

My current parms are: Ca 440, mag 1350, temp 80, Alk is between 8 and 9.6 (over the course of 2 months measurement).

when are taking the pH reading? (tanks will be lowest when the lights are off)
this is one reason kalkwasser dosing at night is so great! it rasies pH !
The reason you want you pH to remain elevated when the tank is dark is because coral grow (calcify) predominately at night, and the process of calcification takes place more readily and rapidly at higher pH levels. This is one of the biggest reasons people like running their refugiums on a reverse photoperiod.

It is also why the calfo slurry method isn't as good as a consistent drip.

I think it would also be a wise to inform people of the dangers of using Kalkwasser on an automated system. You can easily crash your tank with it if you are not careful..... READ UP AND USE WITH CAUTION !!!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

BUT this statement is inaccurate.


FWIW, both statements might have to be qualified (IMO).

Smaller tanks usually (but not always) have a higher surface area to volume ratio, so may have higher relative evaporation rates, allowing more limewater to be dosed per gallon of total tank water.

In general, I do not know if larger tanks have a larger volume of water per amount of demand for calcifying organisms, so the "buffering" idea isn't clear, IMO. In many cases they may, however, since the bottom surface area rises more slowly than does the volume.

Also, even if a larger volume to calcification ratio did "buffer" the water so that drops in alkalinity and calcium were smaller, if you wanted to maintain the values, then you are going to have to add something regardless of the buffering effect.

For example:

Take 1000 gallon (3780 L) and 50 gallon (189 L) tanks as an extreme example. We can make any of several assumptions:

1,. Exactly the same demand from exactly the same creatures.

Assume that each has creatures that calcify to use up 2 g of calcium and 0.1 equivalent of alkalinity.

That will drop the big tank by 2g/3780L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/3780 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH)

That will drop the little tank by 2g/189L = 10.6 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/189 = 0.52 meq/L (1.5dKH)

That difference clearly shows the buffering effect. But it also obviously takes the same amount of limewater to boost both back to the starting point. Specifically, it takes about 2.5 liters.

The smaller tank may not evaporate that much, but the big one certainly will.

HOWEVER, bigger tanks normally have bigger demand than small ones.

2. Assume the bigger tank has more demand, exactly in proportion to its volume.

Assume that the big tank has creatures that calcify to use up 2 g of calcium and 0.1 equivalent of alkalinity. That will drop the big tank by 2g/3780L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/3780 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH)

Assume that the little tank has creatures that calcify exactly 1/20 as much to use up 0.1 g of calcium and 0.005 equivalent of alkalinity. That will drop the little tank by 0.1g/189L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.005/189 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH).

Now the drop is exactly the same for each, but the amount of limewater needed is very different. Specifically, it takes about 2.5 liters for the big tank but only 125 mL for the little tank.

 

[acrohead500ppm]

Im not going to argue with a reef chemist , but mass of calcifying organisms vs mass of system water would reflect the depletion rate per gallon

two systems.. one 50gal and a 100g with the same mass of calcifying organisms, which is going to see a higher calcium/alk depletion (per gallon) in a 24 hr period.......obviously the smaller system......point made??? That (depending on evap rate) the 50gal would be the first I would consider using alt methods of dosing calcium/alk not the 100gal system.

 

[glenns]

I don't see that as a problem. My ATO adds about a 1/2 cup at a time in my 28 nano tank, if I did the math correctly you would be adding about 1 1/2 cups at a time which souldn't be an issue if your tank is 50 gallons or more. I use a very small pump so the flow is low into the sump. You wouldn't want to dump a full cup and a half into the sump in 10 seconds, it's better for it to be spread out over a minute or so.

Thanks. I'm using a 90 gal DT with 20L sump. But, the system volume is probably 100 - 105 gallons once you consider water displacement and overflow space in the sump during power outages. The pump is the Aqua lifter, so its max is 3.5 gal /hr. If I need to restrict it, I could out a needle valve on the output line.

 

[glenns]

Yikes, Alk has shot up from 7.8 to 10.2dkh. This after dosing 4tsp Kalk per 5gal of RO. Only 2.5gal's of limewater has been used. And I changed 10gal of water before I decided to run the test. Water has been sitting for a week.

So I've added 2.5 gal of RO to the ATO reservoir to dilute the limewater.

Salinity 35ppt
PH 8.2
ALK 10.2
Ca 430
Mg NA

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, many folks use and need less than saturated limewater is demand is not high.

 

[brannock_16]

I am thinking about starting a Kalk drip and setting up an ato. I would be using a JBJ ATO with a aqualifter pump in a 5 Gallon Instant Ocean bucket for my top off. I wanted to dose Kalk in the ato water and had a question regarding the insertion into my sump.

Would it be okay to simply use 1/2 inch or 1 inch flexible plastic hosing running from the ATO bucket to my sump with the Kalkwasser? This would essentially just be dumping Kalkwasser into my sump whenever the ATO kicked in.

Or would it be more beneficial to set up the top off water as a drip? If this would be more beneficial, how would I go about doing this?

I am sorry if this sounds confusing, but I just want to get it right the first time and I have never set up an ATO and am a bit confused myself.

 

[Sk8r]

I don't literally 'drip'. I have the 1/2 inch line from a Majijet reduced to a 1/4 inch---I took one of the connectors for a 1/4 locline and stuck it inside the half inch tubing, then hose-clamped it in place. WOrks like a charm.

I have a fierce evap rate in my 54 gallon very packed lps reef: my sump is 30 gallons, and it's a downstairs sump, so the water comes barrielling into that tank pretty fast; ditto the skimmer is poised above the sump on lighting grid, and shoots water into it, so yes, my evap rate is pretty high.

My statement s by no means inclusive of all 50-75 g tanks, because every tank is individual as a snowflake, by reason of its locale, climate, equipment, etc, and whether you have central air etc. But an ATO limewater rig will sure give you a leg up on supplementation. The deal is, if you do this right, you can have supplementation for free---until you do reach the point where you need to bite the bullet and get a calcium reactor. I don't think I ever will, because of my set-up, but some might have to, who have something faster growing than euphyllia.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would it be okay to simply use 1/2 inch or 1 inch flexible plastic hosing running from the ATO bucket to my sump with the Kalkwasser? This would essentially just be dumping Kalkwasser into my sump whenever the ATO kicked in.

Depends on how much you add at once. Adding 1.25% of the water volume at once will instantly boost the pH by about 0.7 pH units, which is clearly too much.

Half that is marginal, IMO.

A quarter that is probably OK

I add mine very slowly, and generally recommend that.