Would you suggest a grounding probe?
- Thread starter dreaminmel
- Start date
bureau13
New member
Slight tangent here...does anyone make a volt meter display (I'm thinking something permanently mounted like one of those little digital temp gauges) that indicates voltage difference from tank water to household ground? It sounds like that might be a better safety device than a ground probe, provided of course that you look at it before sticking your hands in the tank.
jds
jds
Avast Marine
.Registered Member
Hmmmmm. My heater doesn't seem to have a ground. Does Finnex know something that the makers of the probes do not? 200W with a metal case seems to justify a ground with other similar equipment that is not submerged.
ggenz
New member
ok, i have some questions here,
if, above all else(including the tank and fish) i am more worried about MY life and i have a GFCI, do i add a ground probe or not to be more protected?
also, would it be better to have 1 GFCI or two(and with one, would it have less nuisance trips?
yet another question, does the makeup of the water in a marine aquarium change(ie. increase) the chances of being shocked as opposed to a freshwater tank?
lots of questions, i know but i think i would rather live than have my tank survive(i think my parents would feel the same way)
if, above all else(including the tank and fish) i am more worried about MY life and i have a GFCI, do i add a ground probe or not to be more protected?
also, would it be better to have 1 GFCI or two(and with one, would it have less nuisance trips?
yet another question, does the makeup of the water in a marine aquarium change(ie. increase) the chances of being shocked as opposed to a freshwater tank?
lots of questions, i know but i think i would rather live than have my tank survive(i think my parents would feel the same way)
I'd add the grounding probe in this circustance as it would tend to trip the GFCI if there was a leak rather than you tripping the GFCI when you stick your hand in the water.
Having muliple GFCI's would provide redundancy and limit the devices that were "tripped" if one device on a single GFCI circuit developed an fault.
Yes - The high ion concentration of salt water i.e. salt makes it much more conductive than fresh water and at least theoretically more dangerous
Having muliple GFCI's would provide redundancy and limit the devices that were "tripped" if one device on a single GFCI circuit developed an fault.
Yes - The high ion concentration of salt water i.e. salt makes it much more conductive than fresh water and at least theoretically more dangerous
Avast Marine
.Registered Member
Now that I have a ground probe I am not using
what I am thinking is just cut the wire in half, put a $10 volt meter inline and mount that next to my Neptune Controller (lord knows I look at that enough). Does this seem like it would fit the bill?
ggenz
New member
ok, so next question, will one probe work or do i want one in the display and one in the sump?(whats the reasoning behind this?)
also, (kind of a clarification of the earlier question), does the makeup of salt water make it so the breaker in the house doesnt trip as quickly as in fresh water?
also, (kind of a clarification of the earlier question), does the makeup of salt water make it so the breaker in the house doesnt trip as quickly as in fresh water?
Well that a good question. I don't know for sure but my best guess is that salt water would tend to cause the GFCI to trip more so that fresh water. But both may provide ample electrical conduction to trip the breaker (depending on the hardness of the water).
One thing is for sure. If you take ultrapure deionized water (conductivity is 18.2megOhm/cm) and put your hand in along with an expose 120V line you will not get shocked (provided enough salt didn't leach off your hand into the water to significantly increase the conductivity) . This is because about about 6.6microAmps RMS would flow under these conditions: E=IxR; 120V=Ix18200000Ohms.
One thing is for sure. If you take ultrapure deionized water (conductivity is 18.2megOhm/cm) and put your hand in along with an expose 120V line you will not get shocked (provided enough salt didn't leach off your hand into the water to significantly increase the conductivity) . This is because about about 6.6microAmps RMS would flow under these conditions: E=IxR; 120V=Ix18200000Ohms.
,i should probably get GFCIs and ground probes?(ugghh, more stuff to buy;()What a LOOOONG THREAD. I see BOTH side to this. I have ground probes, but i am going to remove them. I do understand,and agree with the bird on the wire, no ground, no shock, but I do agree on the gfe, and i more than agree that they can go bad. been there done that. I have been jo;ted pritty good, making up water, pump in trashcan,barefoot on concrete,AND IT STILL WAS PLUGGED INTO A GFI, AND NO, IT DIDN'T TRIP!!!If somthing is going to go out, I want the gfe to trip, not gaving current running to groung from probe... IE not enought current to trip gfe, if probe is just siphening off some current, also, 3 prong pump in sump, may or may not act to some extent as a probe. BTW the metal ti heaters ive seen, are 3 wire to controler, but two wire to element, what the point is to that is, I don't know
And after reading the entire thread.I'm sure everybody has reinforsed there opinions, to themselfs. I know my lsf has them allover the place, probes, but I have had that dang bird on a wire in my head for years. The "only sure" I hope that all agree with, is the GFIs. But, then again, I did tell a guy at the lake to jump off the bridge, and the dum a did it!!!! Good Night,.........................
Runner
Active member
So long as you have GFCI protection and test it regularly, then they make it marginally safer for you. The purpose of a ground probe is to trip your breaker or your GFCI before you do by reaching into the tank.
I think a ground probe makes it more dangerous for the critters in your aquarium, though. Here is what happened to easttn's tank because of a ground probe and equipment failure:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=775165&highlight=probe
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=795442&highlight=probe
P.S. Nothing like a good argument on the religion of ground probes....
Avast Marine
.Registered Member
What I get from that is that sometimes a trickle of voltage can go through the probe and not be detected by the gfci. Where as a single release of the voltage (my hand) will be enough of a change so that a functioning GFCI will dectect and trip. The voltage that is ungrounded in the tank will be very small or the GFCI would have previously detected it. The creatures in the tank will be gravely effected by such a small amount of grounded current(not from ungrounded), but us humans with much higher tolerances will be safe. Does that pretty much sum it up?
Hal
New member
That pretty much sums it up. Why anyone would place the lives of their fish above their own is beyond me. :eek1:
Those of you that are removing your ground probes after reading this thread. . . I'm at a loss for words. Not to place too much emphasis here, but I am one of the EE's posting on this thread. I don't claim to be Einstein or anything (or perhaps a reference to Gustav Kirchoff would be more topical), but this is first year EE stuff.
Good luck and godspeed. The latter might be closer to reality than you think.
Runner
Active member
@Hal: You totally overlook the effects of a ground probe causing current flow and speeding deterioration on a low-grade, high-insulation fault until it becomes a big one over time. This goes beyond first-year EE (punch in the pretty numbers and get the well-defined answer) into the actual understanding of electricity and how it flows.
If you want to be totally "safe", don't use Metal Halides or put in electric, glass heaters or any number of things we do. And don't ever put your hand in the tank without pulling the plug on pumps and heaters. Or even remove the tank from your house. I have been talking about degrees of protection. And animal saftety is put at severe risk with a ground probe -- while human safety is only made marginally better with a ground probe and GFCI over having a simple GFCI alone.
If you want to be totally "safe", don't use Metal Halides or put in electric, glass heaters or any number of things we do. And don't ever put your hand in the tank without pulling the plug on pumps and heaters. Or even remove the tank from your house. I have been talking about degrees of protection. And animal saftety is put at severe risk with a ground probe -- while human safety is only made marginally better with a ground probe and GFCI over having a simple GFCI alone.
