Would you turn OFF your skimmer

Would you turn OFF your skimmer


  • Total voters
    65
  • Poll closed .

Mudbeaver

New member
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I'm doing an experiment; I'm stopping my skimmer 12 hour per day, to see if my sponges 13 of them will pick up the slack. What do you think.

I'm trying to determine the best time slot for it.

First the context; Its a hight nutrient tank, because of its inhabitant;

Its LPS dominated
85 corals +

12- gorgonians
4 NPS
13 sponges ( they pump 50 gallons an hour altogether)


Then i have a huge display refugium for which i have to dose suppliments for the macro's to live. The system need a fair amount of nitrates and phosphate for the macro's to survive or they die, i did loose my first batch of macro becaues my skimmer really too efficient cleaned the water so well nothing was left to create nitrates lol. My skimmer is rated for a 300G and i have a 150 G reef and a 75 G display refugium for a 230 G system with 65G sump that's with all the water and rocks taken into account.



$195 worth of macroalgaes gone. So maintaning a 0.5ppm nitrates is perfec for the size fuge i have 75 Gallons display refugium for my 150 gallons reef tank. And the phosphate at 0.47 ppm as well if not i loose my red algaes. I have 37 different species, in there this is not a chaeto caulerpa fuge, its a display and pleasant fuge with good specimen.

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So why do i want to shut down. i've noticed my sponges have started to starve. i red a few good article on their feedings and bacterias is their primaty sources, phyto the second. Since they pump 24liters or 5 gallons per day per square cm that a lot of water, i've calculated with the sponge matter that i have that my system is being pumped at a rate of 50 gallons /hour so not enough nutrients are going throught them. I dose every day mind you but if simply turning my skimmer 12 hours can help these guys survive. And i must tell you my water in the morning is cristal clear. because no feeding all night and filtration is done so many times during the night and by them and the skimmer.

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So this is my thinking, if i can reduce the mechanical filtration for the sponge to take over they may survive better, but what would be the best time is my next question. My first reflex would be day time since i feed and dose during the day.

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So Off daytime ?
ON night time?

Please vote and leave me a comment about what you think about the whole thing thanks for your time.

Their' a few vis about people who run tanks without skimmers but i'm not there yet....



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Some of my sponges;


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I write big for my iphone friends

 
I voted night time. I'd dose and feed right after I shut the skimmer down. That would put food in the water for the night time polyp/feeder extension. Plus, you'll be awake during the time the skimmer is running so, should anything go wrong like an overflow. You'll hopefully catch it more soon.
 
What skimmer? Lol.

I think your bio load is so low you won't notice any difference. And with all that macro & sponges, you have a perfect set up to go skimmer less anyhow.
 
I believe, he has a thread about going skimmer less?? This thread kinda threw me off



Edit;
I don't understand the "just an hour after each feeding". My skimmer and any skimmer I've ever run shuts down when I feed due to oils. Have I just owned crappy skimmers??
 
Oxygen is critical at night when no photosynthesis. Opposite photo period helps. It is critical that your water surfaces provide good gas exchange. To that end, surface tension needs to be eliminated with a surface overflow skimmer weir that removes any organic skum. Aggressive circulation at the surface breaks surface tension.

The claims of superior oxygen exchange with skimmer operations are exaggerated. The physics of surface tension at skimmer bubbles provide the mechanism for skimmers to export nutrients. Due to the same physics of surface tension, gas exchange is severely limited.
I am just an engineer, but I study the sciences.
Patrick

PS. Your sponges feed all the time. On the natural reef, most filter feeding is done at night when zooplankton is abundant. That is when I would turn off the skimmer.
 
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How did you evaluate 50 GPHr? I think it may be a lot more than that. Your picture of your skimmer shows clean bubbles. How can this be in high nutrient tank?
Patrick
 
I voted "Never"... BUT... I would run the skimmer very dry in an effort to keep it from removing particulates and bacteria. FWIW though, the filter socks probably take out more "food" than the skimmer. I'd be tempted to remove them.
 
Oxygen is critical at night when no photosynthesis. Opposite photo period helps. It is critical that your water surfaces provide good gas exchange. To that end, surface tension needs to be eliminated with a surface overflow skimmer weir that removes any organic skum. Aggressive circulation at the surface breaks surface tension.

The claims of superior oxygen exchange with skimmer operations are exaggerated. The physics of surface tension at skimmer bubbles provide the mechanism for skimmers to export nutrients. Due to the same physics of surface tension, gas exchange is severely limited.
I am just an engineer, but I study the sciences.
Patrick

PS. Your sponges feed all the time. On the natural reef, most filter feeding is done at night when zooplankton is abundant. That is when I would turn off the skimmer.

How did you evaluate 50 GPHr? I think it may be a lot more than that. Your picture of your skimmer shows clean bubbles. How can this be in high nutrient tank?
Patrick


Ok well i'll try to explain and answer some of your questions

First when i designed the system i had some engineering notions. On both the 75 G refugium and 150 Reef tank have a coast to coast overflow for skimming. And nothing, none of the little square boxes or half moon corners that most tanks have can match the 6 feet and 4 feet skimming weir i have thats for starters.

The custom reef tank overflow and the custom external wavebox i've had put in, for $20 more .

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The refugium external coast to coast overflow , are the most efficient .

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Second my system has a total volume of 230 Gallons and my Reef Octopus skimmer is rated for a 300 gallons. So its a good ratios, and a fast extraction.

Both tanks have their own herbie drains system that goes to the sump and their own individual independant return pumps.

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The refugium feed the reef via a 1" flex 1 inch below the waterline , so not to get the skimming junk that the overflow is suppose to get. The connection gets the pods and other critters.

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You where talking about oxygenation. My Orp is usually between 370-450 depending of the time of day. Its higher at night because during the day the fish are active and so is the rest of the tank, at night everybody sleeps except some of the CUC.

My 5 Tunze pump also disturb and break the surface of the 3 tanks, the reef, the refugium and in the 65 G sump i have a small pump as well to make ripples.

It is a high nutrience tank because i dose for;

sponges
NPS
Gorgonians
clams
my macroalgaes


And its primarily a softies and LPS tank. And dosing lots of these supplements make it a high nutrient tank, not at all for SPS. Anyone who ever kept NPS will tell you that.

But the skimmer and the design of the tank is so efficient its extracting too much, even what i'm dosing or putting in. Thats why the turning Off question rose after i saw some tanks and watched some on YouTube not having the benefits of Skimmers.

I'm not giving up my skimmer, i don't think my tank could survive without one, but having lost 2 sponges to starvation its an option i can't neglets. Its the logical option to try anyway, with a 24/24 skimmer its dying so with a reduced time frame we'll see the result after a few weeks.

Beside's i've been maintaning my gorgonians and NPS, but i haven't see any growth really, with that maybe i'll see some. Its worth a try.

As for sponges studies in many article are suggesting 1 cubic cm of sponge matter filter 4 liters of water a day. From the number of sponges i have and their volume i've estimated their filtration capacity to 50 GPH thats lots.

Finally Sponges have minuscules pores, too small for zooplankton , they mostly feed on bacterias and small and i mean very small phytoplankton. Bacterias that is contained in "poo" is actually ideal apparently and if removed too quickly well the sponges have a very lean meal and so is are sea cukes, lol.

See sponges ; Wiki; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge

Particles from 0.5 μm to 50 μm are trapped in the ostia, which taper from the outer to inner ends. These particles are consumed by pinacocytes or by archaeocytes which partially extrude themselves through the walls of the ostia. Bacteria-sized particles, below 0.5 micrometers, pass through the ostia and are caught and consumed by choanocytes.[3] Since the smallest particles are by far the most common, choanocytes typically capture 80% of a sponge's food supply.[14] Archaeocytes transport food packaged in vesicles from cells that directly digest food to those that do not. At least one species of sponge has internal fibers that function as tracks for use by nutrient-carrying archaeocytes,[3] and these tracks also move inert objects.[4]

Sponges' cells absorb oxygen by diffusion from water into cells as water flows through body, into which carbon dioxide and other soluble waste products such as ammonia also diffuse. Archeocytes remove mineral particles that threaten to block the ostia, transport them through the mesohyl and generally dump them into the outgoing water current, although some species incorporate them into their skeletons.[3]

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Aside from the money you spent on your skimmer, I do not understand your attitude to maintain its use. You have explained clearly that it is interfering with the food web for your NPS.
Please explain what good it is bringing to your system.
Patrick
 
Oxygen is critical at night when no photosynthesis. Opposite photo period helps.

You where talking about oxygenation. My Orp is usually between 370-450 depending of the time of day. Its higher at night because during the day the fish are active and so is the rest of the tank, at night everybody sleeps except some of the CUC.



Looks like "The Beav" put that silly notion to rest.


I voted "Never"... BUT... I would run the skimmer very dry in an effort to keep it from removing particulates and bacteria. FWIW though, the filter socks probably take out more "food" than the skimmer. I'd be tempted to remove them.

Good point on the filter sock....
 
Aside from the money you spent on your skimmer, I do not understand your attitude to maintain its use. You have explained clearly that it is interfering with the food web for your NPS.
Please explain what good it is bringing to your system.
Patrick


LOL hahahah i hear ya, nothing is 100% in life, and are aquariums are basicaly an experiment in life keeping. I posted this to see if anyone had experiences similar or any input that would make me doubt enough my theory not to proceed.

As it turn out most of the interjection actually rehenforce it. Which is ok. This is why we talk about things in these forum. Debate are made for that.

I do not question the usefulness of my skimmer. Its a very important component of my system and i'm not ready to go native yet. My tank is a success based on that. But now i'm at a point where the sponges need more nutrients.

A correction in course is warranted. It may be one solution, it may be a bad one ; time will tell. I may be completely wrong. But from videos, research and info from diverse sources, its a logical step to undertake. Observation will be key.

Not only from parameters point of view but , the look of things, and smell, thats one of my fears too. whats stays in there, Hmmmmm is it or is it not going to smell , nature works with its own set of rules, lol. A pond is great for ducks but its stinks too, lol.

When those guys in the video say i'm running this without s skimmer do they tell us the whole story? The smell and all the other stuff. Nothing in life is 100% that my experience i've learned . I also have to consider the other parts of my tank that are not NPS ; its all a question of balance.

I'll report on this little venture. Probably in my main thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2327805
 
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I voted "Never"... BUT... I would run the skimmer very dry in an effort to keep it from removing particulates and bacteria. FWIW though, the filter socks probably take out more "food" than the skimmer. I'd be tempted to remove them.

I do run the skimmer very dry , but its a good point, as for the sock, Thats a dam if you do dam if you don't.

I clean my sump every WC i do and it takes me an hours each time that how i empty my sump or take out my water. I have a small pump that agitate the water and makes the particule move in the water column and i suck it out and clean my sump this way, clean the side and all.

But removeing the sock i'd have lots more debris in there that would no doubt cloged my little pump and stop it from helping in my moving the water which is also part of my oxygenation by disturbing the surface water.

Plus the sponges feeds on particulates below 0.5 micrometers, most of whats in the sock is gigantic compare to that. I would just be collecting junk. Besides the material stays in the water anyway in the sock until i remove the sock what ever bacterial content it has still contribute.


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How to propagate a sponge

How to propagate a sponge



If a sponge die or is dying this is what you can do. Sorry about the video , i'm not a pro and i'm uneasy at doing those, too self concious lol. But the info is valid. Got that from universities biolabs and study papers. And ya i got a big belly LOL.

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aquariums are basicaly an experiment in life keeping.

I like that statement. I may have to borrow that.


My tank is a success based on that. But now i'm at a point where the sponges need more nutrients.

Have you ever thought that you may not have the right inhabitant mix in your aquarium? You run a mixed reef, very successful. But you state your sponges are lacking nutrients. If you provide the needed extra nutrients, will it put your aquarium out of balance, and the other inhabitants suffer?

Have you thought of setting up a high nutrient aquarium more suited for softies and sponges? You could then keep your current setup for LPS, and some SPS. Your thoughts?
 
...Plus the sponges feeds on particulates below 0.5 micrometers, most of whats in the sock is gigantic compare to that. I would just be collecting junk. Besides the material stays in the water anyway in the sock until i remove the sock what ever bacterial content it has still contribute.

Great point but: 1) What about the other inhabitants that feed on larger particulates and organisms; and 2) Don't filter socks filter out smaller and smaller particles/organisms until they reach a point where they clog?
 
Great point but: 1) What about the other inhabitants that feed on larger particulates and organisms; and 2) Don't filter socks filter out smaller and smaller particles/organisms until they reach a point where they clog?

When ever i dose, the first thing i do is to stop my return so the water stays in the tank it become a closed system for at least 30 mn, then i feed my fishes and also dose at the same time so corals get a chance to eat too. after that i start my flow pump to get the water moving again, and the left overs circulates, its the encore for another 30min, after that i restart the return. During all that time the skimmer is cleaning the sump's water.

But yes eventually all socks clog thats every 4 days for me. But my feeding is every day. and its like any other system with socks.

 
I like that statement. I may have to borrow that.




Have you ever thought that you may not have the right inhabitant mix in your aquarium? You run a mixed reef, very successful. But you state your sponges are lacking nutrients. If you provide the needed extra nutrients, will it put your aquarium out of balance, and the other inhabitants suffer?

Have you thought of setting up a high nutrient aquarium more suited for softies and sponges? You could then keep your current setup for LPS, and some SPS. Your thoughts?

Well thats what i'm trying to do lol. right now i'm dosing;

Reef roids
live Phytoplanton
Ultramin F
Ultramin S
Ultraclam
Ultra Organic
UltraSeafan
Acropower

For the macro's

Seachem Iron
Iron&manganese
Seachem Flouris
Seachem trace

This is dosed each day, you don't call that heavy or rich nutrient. And its all absorbed.

All my LPS and other corals are great couldn't be happier. I seem to maintain the gorgonians but i don't see the great growth i was expecting. When i say mixed reef, for me a mixed reef mean more than one kind of species, i'm not limited by SPS and LPS. My mixed tank is macroalgaes, NPS, LPS, Gorgonians.

I do not have any SPS because none would ever survive the amount of nutrience i have in my tank right now. But its stil a mixed tank their's more than one kind of species that requires different needs.

This is why i'm left to beleive with the videos i've seem that stopping the skimmer for a period of time might help.

The species are all from similar enviroment maybe not the same region but similar ecosystem. Rich and not so clear waters. I don't want a soup, but a balance that will support and make them grow.

My photo shot records show little progress in the sponge. The gorgonians are very healthy but not growing . With a nitrate at 1ppm phosphate at .47ppm , the rest of parameters are at their normal values.

I've build this tank with an integrated wavbox, thats for LPS, no need of a wavbox for a sps they don't sway in the current, so it wouldn't be much use lol. The set up has a huge starfire display fuge to handle the hight nutrient levels, and both a coast to coast for maximum skimming abilities from both tanks, to have a better control, over that part of the filtering process.

My system is only 9 months old, i'm still tweaking with its pulse and demands, how it operates, how it reacts to changes. Thats my job. Learning my system needs and function takes time , observations , trials and errors. Thats what i'm doing. Hopefully without too many casualties or burnouts lol. Physic, chemistry and biology can only take us so far, life finds a way or surprises us. what i have in mine; is growing but not thriving yet. I need to find that balance. And its only by logical explorations and concepts that i can do that.

Bought a Valentini Puffer (Canthigaster Valentini) 3 days ago, my dwarf lionfish i hadn't seen in 6 months came out, pricked the puffer last night. The lionfish was there this morning waiting , the small puffer which flesh is suppose to be poisonous to most, was dying, when he died, the lionfish got him.

First , where was that damned lionfish for 6 months that i never fed,
Second the puffer is suppose to be poisonous
Thirds the lionfish ate him after he was dead, explain to me these 3 facts that happened in less that an hour in my tank, and we can discuss the rules of predictability lol.

Simple life finds a way.


My little guy

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The unseen lionfish

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Had you been putting in other live food during that 6 months?

Poisonous to people is not the same as poisonous to fish.

The behavior of the lion fish was very predictable for a predator prey relationship.

I can't explain how the lion lived in tank for 6 months with no food.
 
Interesting thread.....my only comment/suggestion would be to wean down at a slower rate.

I'd go 4 hours skimmerless, to 6 then 8.........you get the idea. I'm not sure going to 12 is a good idea.

You may find that 6 hours off works good for you. At any rate, doing it slowly over months you may work to not using it at all as the system matures.
 
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