Yes!!!!!!!!! SPS Success with Leds! Come in and Share your Story!
- Thread starter tdb320reef
- Start date
JPMagyar
New member
In general, I've tried to turnover a "new leaf" on the internet, and I hope you understand I don't know you personally, and I'm sure we have way more in common than we have differences, but I'm afraid I feel a need to post an opposing point of view.
My first disagreement is in your characterization of SPS as being easy to keep. In logic the first lesson you learn is that just because you caught a bass next to a log doesn't mean that bass like to live near logs. What I mean is your personal success with a finite sample of SPS is not a clear indication of universal truths. The fact is a large percentage of SPS die each year, and we often have no idea as to why. I am glad that you are finding your skills sufficient to keep lots of SPS healthy, but I don't think it's fair to say that keeping SPS is easy and by allegory implying that people who don't find it easy are inferior.
My second disagreement is regarding LEDs and your analysis again based on one LED and one set of SPS. Many, many individuals have not had the same experience so implying that their failure must be due to poor husbandry is not, I think, fair. You may be right, and in time everyone may come to enjoy the same success with LEDs that you have, but again the sense I get from your post is that those who have failed with LEDs have failed because of something they did and not because of the lights, and that I'm afraid we can't know quite yet.
If my interpretation of what you were saying is inaccurate I hope you will accept my apologies. My ultimate intent is just to make sure everyone has a chance to enjoy the hobby to the best of their abilities without feeling inadequate in what they are doing or not doing.
tdb320reef
Active member
Hi Jeff - I didn't see the link come through. Can you please post it again? Id love to check it out!
tdb320reef
Active member
Tdb320reef, your tanks look great!
I, for one, tried LED's, but ended up switching to MH. I never bought a PAR meter, and I think that they're probably crucial for dialing LED intensity. I've heard, though, that the PAR readings are not to be compared to other lighting (i.e. a 300 reading for LED's is actually stronger than a 300 reading for MH or T5). If that is true, that would maybe explain why others seem to have a hard time.
With that in mind, I have a few questions (maybe these questions should be answered by anyone posting about their success with LED's)
1. How long have you had the LED's over your reefs? (I know you said since the beginning, but a solid time frame could be helpful.)
2. Did you have any problems/issues during any of your experience? If so, what were they? (bleaching, other color issues, no/slow growth, STN/RTN, etc.)
3. How did you solve these problems?
4. What's your PAR readings at 6", 12", and 18"? (You already answered this, yourself, but it would be a great question to answer when others post their success stories)
5. What's your acclimation process?
Just some thoughts!
Hey Kassey - Sure that is a good start.
0. Dialing Leds in. With my set up and what I found is that the way that LED light illuminates is like a Triangle where the parts on the side are your dead spots. What is even more surprising is that the PAR can go from 500 or more to less than 50 in quarters of an inch. So the goal is to get is much overlap as possible without smoking your corals and get rid of these dead spots and not creating spots that are too intense and if they are too intense make sure you have a coral like a stag that likes it intense..
Furthermore, As I have said all along if you don't have this overlap you might have a coverage issue. Those that place corals directly under my have an intensity issue and lower the leds to 30% making the triangle smaller at the bottom and allowing less coverage, more dead spots and inadequate light for the corals all around.
1. I bought my first frag pack in 11/2011 and placed in my 180 softie tank under T5. They quickly browned out as the system didn't meet the requirements of the corals. Early December I set up 90 gallon prop system. Subsequently I bought a used aquaticlife 8 bulb fixture. When I turned it on it had all of the stock bulbs and look terrible compared to my old ATI fixtures. After pricing out the bulb replacements, a couple weeks later, I said forget this and went with two Apollo Fixtures and sold the T5 Rig. What lured me in about the Apollos is that they were controllable wit the APEX. In the end they were just overpriced Chinese knock offs with an apex interface. So I have been running LEDS since I have owned SPS 12/2011
2. Early on the scene with SPS I had now clue of the nutritional requirements and had all of the latest in filtration such as Biopellets, GFO, Carbon, Frequent WC, and Wet skimming. The corals didn't die but were as white as you can get tem. Then hammering them with 700 Par didn't help. So my early issues was poor nutrition and too intense light for too long.
3. I turned down the skimmer, Removed half of the Biopellets, Added about 15 or so fish, turned the lights down especially the Whites. After a par map I discovered the said dead spots and added a fixture in the middle over the center brace. 3 fixtures over the 90G with reduced intensity and a nutrition program solved my issues.
4. In the front I have 2100 par at the water surface and 200-300 at the sandbed. With the amount of fixtures I have eliminated the dead spots. In the back underneath the glass the par is 300-500 but the AJM is 500 +. When I get a chance I will provide a map of the entire tank. I was just waiting to keep the lights where they are at without making changes before the effort.
5. I temp float, Match PH and Salinity, and always start at the bottom. In fact all of my frags stay at the bottom. I did build a rack out of a mag float and egg crate. I had it between the mp60 and mp40 and the incoming frags quickly bleached. Id say for incoming frags regardless where they came from they should be at the bottom at 200 par. If it turns brown then move up. I find that they look great in that space in 30 days and start to encrust at that point. This is the time you can start to move up.
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tdb320reef
Active member
Even though i don't use LED's over my halide/T5 display i do run a 120W 50/50 blue/white cheapo ebay unit over the forgotten corals section of my sump. There is nearly no circulation in the LED area, just the feed pump outlet and a rattling 250gph 'old fashioned' powerhead plonked in a corner - terrible water movement with lots of dead spots etc.
The tank is 4 months old and i know next to nothing about LED lighting but i see lots of people on here blaming LED's for an inability to keep SPS colored and/or alive.
I'm not really interested in LED's yet but i will say that anyone who can't keep SPS under anything from my non full spectrum LED unit up to the high end full spectrum LED fixtures like radions etc has their hand on it. I don't care one toss if i upset anyone tbh - i am an experienced SPS keeper and have had this LED unit running for months to see what all the fuss was about and i know what i'm doing when it comes to SPS and how to keep them successfully.
All these corals are wild collected and still acclimating to artificial lighting but i can assure anyone who cares to listen to my opinion that if your corals are all slowly dying under LED's - it isn't the light that's doing it. I run the LED's at 100% 10 hours a day. The sump pic is not sharp because i haven't cleaned the glass in 2 weeks so it is crazed with snail grazing tracks, i really don't care about the sump section or the corals in it tbh.
Proof is in the pics
Halide and T5 display:
Blue/white LED sump section:
The colors in both tanks are obviously much better in real life but you can see frags in the LED area and the same corals up above in the display. I really don't get this whole SPS are super hard to keep thing btw - the ones in the sump are in terrible flow conditions, they're not receiving a light spectrum anywhere near full yet they soldier on......... get your water right before you blame your lights.
The colors look great. What type of fixture are you using? Are you looking at swapping lights out on the big tank? If so what type?
tdb320reef
Active member
They look a bit starved, maybe you should feed more?!......
Mo
I was thinking carx media. Id be interested if it was a total lose or just specific corals. It looks more like a crash vs a light problem. Hope he will provide detailed experience to prevent the costly mistakes for others moving into this space.
tdb320reef
Active member
I think it is far to say that SPS corals relative to other beginner corals are difficult. Many of us have evolved from FO to Softies to LPS etc. Those corals were pretty much hands off and handled with Water changes and when demand got high Kalk did the trick. SpS do seem to have issues for no reason.
I was taking a look at my beloved Hawkins and noticed some STN at the base this was happening to a few other corals. I check alk and it is perfectly 7.5. It turns out both of my LAB grade PH probes were .2 too high. Well this presents an issue for my system because it take the ph in the CARX form 6.5 -6.3 adding acidic water in addition my kalk stops dosing at 8.3 where the system was 8.1. After a calibration early in the morning the Tank PH was 7.7 something. I have never had it this low since the system has been up. So this deviation while slight causes issues and the sps are quick to negatively react.
tdb320reef
Active member
I think Water Quality and Nutrition are weighted much higher than light. I have had corals fall into a cave and stay in darkness for months. I have pulled them and starting them at the bottom in a shaded area brought them back to life. If your WQ and Nutrition is all messed up they can go up in flames over night.
clowndude
New member
Funny u say that because I just dug a frag out for under rocks that were MIA for quite sometime. It's slowly regaining its color back.
Nano sapiens
New member
Went from T5s to LEDs nearly a year ago in a small tank. Some early mild bleaching noted in Pavona varians and Montipora setosa (turned bright pink), but they adapted well. No issues with other corals, including a few Acros. Using a PAR meter is very useful, but even so problems can occur since the PAR readings from LEDs typically register low with a Apogee quantum meter.
When I went from T5s to LEDs I started out with a PAR reading about 20% less to be on the safe side and ramped up by maybe 5%/week. If I had to do this again I'd increase feeding a bit during the acclimation period as a fail-safe to make sure the coral has enough energy for metabolism, at least, and gradually decrease feeding back to normal levels when the corals have acclimated.
Based on reading many posts what I have noted is that many tanks with very high PAR systems to begin with tend to have the most trouble when converting over to LEDs. With so much PAR/intensity the corals are often already stressed to a certain extent (likely photo inhibited for at least part of the day) and altering the spectrum and intensity with LEDs can lead to too much stress and expulsion of the zooanthellae and resultant bleaching. Corals in a tank that have PAR closer to, or perhaps slightly above, the coral's photo saturation point should, in theory, have a better chance to weather the change in lighting if not too extreme.
When I went from T5s to LEDs I started out with a PAR reading about 20% less to be on the safe side and ramped up by maybe 5%/week. If I had to do this again I'd increase feeding a bit during the acclimation period as a fail-safe to make sure the coral has enough energy for metabolism, at least, and gradually decrease feeding back to normal levels when the corals have acclimated.
Based on reading many posts what I have noted is that many tanks with very high PAR systems to begin with tend to have the most trouble when converting over to LEDs. With so much PAR/intensity the corals are often already stressed to a certain extent (likely photo inhibited for at least part of the day) and altering the spectrum and intensity with LEDs can lead to too much stress and expulsion of the zooanthellae and resultant bleaching. Corals in a tank that have PAR closer to, or perhaps slightly above, the coral's photo saturation point should, in theory, have a better chance to weather the change in lighting if not too extreme.
biggles
Premium Member
I think it's quite stretch to turn the phrase 'SPS aren't super hard to keep' into 'easy'. I personally believe that SPS are the hardest of all photosynthetic corals to keep, but not super or extremely hard - i don't believe anything more than a tightening of water parameters is required to move from let's say LPS to SPS.
It wasn't my intention to imply that those struggling with SPS are inferior reefers, i don't have access to nor experience with aquacultured corals that have been tank raised for years and chosen for their proven resilience and colors, just wild stock only so i do see how my opinion is not based on similar experiences shared by most here. For all i know the aquacultured corals that the majority of reefers here keep would all turn up their toes and die in my tank.
I have based my opinions on keeping SPS on perhaps 180-200 wild collected SPS, 95% acros i guess over three tanks in the last 10 years or so. I have killed 3 colonies which RTN'd the first night in my previous tanks so i am not infallible, some corals just don't want to play inside i think but who really knows.
I read through my post, it does come across as demeaning to those who are having difficulties and i can see how you interpreted it the way you did, i rushed it before leaving for work and obviously expressed myself poorly. Most of the corals in the sump have only been in there for 2-3 months so i shouldn't express a view based on such a small time frame under LED's - i won't again.
You have nothing to apologize for as i express myself poorly on the internet - it's the only thing i hate about the net, it's 'easy'
to write things that sound ok in your head but later you look and think damn, that's not how i meant to come across......I want nothing more than to see everyone here that wants a beautiful SPS display to be rewarded for the hard work they put into their reefs but i can see how i've alienated more than i've helped with my post. I'll leave these discussions to those with more relevant experiences to share in future as i've already made this go off topic enough. :thumbsup:
Thanks for stating your objections to my post so politely JPMagyar rather than spitting the dummy and having a rant back at me.
epicurus84
New member
I got a corner tank 190 gallon (link here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2274721)
it's lid by LED lights and i got one picture that i could relate to growth (hystrix)
Other pictures can be found in the threat.
Anyhow my findings:
1. Know the lights from the vendor, if you buy at a LFS. So you can adjust to the LED's better.
2. LED's will burn off corals easy
My opinion about leds: Make sure you get good fixtures. Prefferebly with Philips leds when you do DIY since they are better. However cree's are really good too.
Buy a dimmable fixture, i know most are, but it's needed since all new led's will burn the corals when you run them at 100%. I think most corals will do fine at 60-80% lighting. I've seen my acro's turn to light brown, and now lowering the light from 95% to 80% slowly. I don't yet see any corals brown up so they got enough light. Also my LPS on the bottom still get some light shock, even doh they are low and outside the main light.
I'll keep you all posted about my aquarium when needed in the other threat. (link on top). As far as my statement, yes go for led when you get a new tank with good LED's. Or second hand other lighting if you want to save money (when you would buy ATI T5 fixtures they cost the same as a good LED fixture).
Personally i run two pacific sun triton units on the Bali program.
it's lid by LED lights and i got one picture that i could relate to growth (hystrix)
Other pictures can be found in the threat.
Anyhow my findings:
1. Know the lights from the vendor, if you buy at a LFS. So you can adjust to the LED's better.
2. LED's will burn off corals easy
My opinion about leds: Make sure you get good fixtures. Prefferebly with Philips leds when you do DIY since they are better. However cree's are really good too.
Buy a dimmable fixture, i know most are, but it's needed since all new led's will burn the corals when you run them at 100%. I think most corals will do fine at 60-80% lighting. I've seen my acro's turn to light brown, and now lowering the light from 95% to 80% slowly. I don't yet see any corals brown up so they got enough light. Also my LPS on the bottom still get some light shock, even doh they are low and outside the main light.
I'll keep you all posted about my aquarium when needed in the other threat. (link on top). As far as my statement, yes go for led when you get a new tank with good LED's. Or second hand other lighting if you want to save money (when you would buy ATI T5 fixtures they cost the same as a good LED fixture).
Personally i run two pacific sun triton units on the Bali program.
I have been running leds for a little more then a year now i can say they are tricky! Here what i found basing on my experience.
I have 10 radions over 400G tank i by last december i was running them at 90%! everything was fine , i had great color. my water wasn't clear and i had bryopsis and cyano so i started coral snow. I was aware that water clearer would mean more par so i lower it down to 80 % changing by the way a little bit of the spectrum, moving it toward the blue. There my problems started!! pales corals burnt tips parameter were kh 8.3, po4 0, nitrates 0 ca 430. I posted a thread about it on the sps keeper forum. I lower lights to 60 % 10 hrs a day and feed more my corals. It has only been 2 days but i see improvement in PE and color. So the learning here for me, sps can take a lot of light but there is a limit with the kind of spectrum we get with leds especialy with low nutrients tank!
I have 10 radions over 400G tank i by last december i was running them at 90%! everything was fine , i had great color. my water wasn't clear and i had bryopsis and cyano so i started coral snow. I was aware that water clearer would mean more par so i lower it down to 80 % changing by the way a little bit of the spectrum, moving it toward the blue. There my problems started!! pales corals burnt tips parameter were kh 8.3, po4 0, nitrates 0 ca 430. I posted a thread about it on the sps keeper forum. I lower lights to 60 % 10 hrs a day and feed more my corals. It has only been 2 days but i see improvement in PE and color. So the learning here for me, sps can take a lot of light but there is a limit with the kind of spectrum we get with leds especialy with low nutrients tank!
clowndude
New member
That is interesting. So when your water cleared up you had to drop to 60% and feed more to the sps? Amazing it makes the big of a difference ha?
SO far it seems to work. But the water got clearer and poorer in nutrients since i took a couple of mesures to reduce nitrates. I think that it is the combinaison of both that was causing burnt tips and pale sps. I am also lowering my kh to 7.5.
tdb320reef
Active member
Wow 10 Radions fixtures - you must have delivered that payment in a bulletproof Brinks truck. I totally agree as was my experience running bio pellets <.02 trates and undetectable phosphates. For me the White's in my fixtures seemed to be killing the color of the SPS. I found that they were growing very fast with my whites >50 % or even equal with the blues I had issues. Changed whites from 12 hours to 8 and lowered to 50%. I did similar steps such as feeding/adding more fish more and change my salt/effluent drip to lower the ALK. I also found the sweet spot between 7.5 and 8. Great information and thanks for sharing.
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tdb320reef
Active member
I got a corner tank 190 gallon (link here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2274721)
it's lid by LED lights and i got one picture that i could relate to growth (hystrix)
Other pictures can be found in the threat.
Anyhow my findings:
1. Know the lights from the vendor, if you buy at a LFS. So you can adjust to the LED's better.
2. LED's will burn off corals easy
My opinion about leds: Make sure you get good fixtures. Prefferebly with Philips leds when you do DIY since they are better. However cree's are really good too.
Buy a dimmable fixture, i know most are, but it's needed since all new led's will burn the corals when you run them at 100%. I think most corals will do fine at 60-80% lighting. I've seen my acro's turn to light brown, and now lowering the light from 95% to 80% slowly. I don't yet see any corals brown up so they got enough light. Also my LPS on the bottom still get some light shock, even doh they are low and outside the main light.
I'll keep you all posted about my aquarium when needed in the other threat. (link on top). As far as my statement, yes go for led when you get a new tank with good LED's. Or second hand other lighting if you want to save money (when you would buy ATI T5 fixtures they cost the same as a good LED fixture).
Personally i run two pacific sun triton units on the Bali program.
Sounds like a great setup. After forking over 1600 for 4 Apollo fixtures ( that IMO were incorrectly advertised and completely inadequate for my system) and later finding that they were basically the same thing as the Cheap Chinese for Double the price I questioned what really is quality as they relate to the fixtures and are you really paying for brand? Having a technology background and being in the field for 15 years the gap from then to now is eye-popping and unimaginable in actually a very short time. Led fixtures I believe will follow this same curve. Because how rapid that changes will occur, gauged by the last year, I think going with affordable and the best quality you can find for the lowest price makes since. I know tomorrow they will be better but I leverage them today for cost saving and while the residual resale value remains high I continue to cycle them. Now if I had more money Id defiantly get the best but being on a budget like most of us cycling allows to maintain your original investment with the latest technology while taking advantages of the cost saving efficiencies.
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epicurus84
New member
Currently i think the LED fictures should not go over 150 watt covering a 70x70 cm area (2.3 feet x 2.3 feet). I think focussing on better engery savings and lower what should be the future.
eyesolator
New member
I started my tank with 4 T5s within a month added a DIY royal blue led strip between the two fixtures. Over the next several months I continued to add cool whites, neutral whites violets, and more royal blue until the 1"wide heat sinlk was maxed out, 30 in all if I remember correctly. I could keep and grow most SPS but color was never that great.
I recently decided to take the plunge and go all led, see sig for led quanity. I have only had it online for a month or so an I'm still ramping it up. All colors are separately controlled via my Apex and I have been running all but the blue and the whites at 95%. Cool white has been at 60%, blue and neutral white at 75%. That combo seems to give me the color I like but I still may add some more royal blue and drop some of the cool white. The beauty of a diy led setup and an Apex is the ability to change color intensity if desired and add or subtract leds. I have also been using the Apex cloudy feature which drops the intensity for a programmable amount of time, just to help acclimate the coral. Time will tell but I love it so far and my SPS look much better and are growing well!
Bored one day I threw together a web page about the build.
John
I recently decided to take the plunge and go all led, see sig for led quanity. I have only had it online for a month or so an I'm still ramping it up. All colors are separately controlled via my Apex and I have been running all but the blue and the whites at 95%. Cool white has been at 60%, blue and neutral white at 75%. That combo seems to give me the color I like but I still may add some more royal blue and drop some of the cool white. The beauty of a diy led setup and an Apex is the ability to change color intensity if desired and add or subtract leds. I have also been using the Apex cloudy feature which drops the intensity for a programmable amount of time, just to help acclimate the coral. Time will tell but I love it so far and my SPS look much better and are growing well!
Bored one day I threw together a web page about the build.
John
CHSUB
"Certified Hobby Expert"
not a crash!!! in fact, the only change i made was returning to MH/t5s and all is well. take a look at my build threat and you will see how leds were a terrible failure.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110638
