You guys read this? States study shows very little difference between filtration

[fantastic4]

https://www.marineland.com/seascope/ss2003_issue2.pdf

It seems to point out that Live Rock and organic waste removal (protien skimmer) are keys to success, however, wet/dry or bio-wheel or berlin or Jaubert does not really matter.

...While replication is needed in future tests,
the results of this experiment show that minireef
aquaria with dedicated biological filters do
not exhibit higher nitrate-nitrogen
concentrations when compared to other types
of filtration methods. There were daily inputs
of ammonia into each aquarium via the
resident fish population as ammonia is the chief
nitrogenous waste product of the fish. There
are two possible fates for the excreted...

 

[snorvich]

About your note to self. I have been diving with sharks of various kinds many many times. Sharks attack people who are doing something that makes the shark think they are their natural food. Are you doing that?

 

[airinhere]

Yeah, but doesn't marineland have a vested interest in how the "results" turn out? I mean, they sell the mechanical filtration devices described in the article. And thy actually tried to declare Berlin and Jaumbert systems as having higher nitrates than the bio wheel, undergravel or trickle filter system.

This is contradictory to anything I have read or experienced before and I do not trust the source.

I think this is just a ploy to legitimize their failing product line.

 

[m2434]

Its really poorly designed experiment... You could write an essay on the flaws. For one, they only ran four aquariums. Biology is just too variable to assume you can hold all covariates equal between four systems. To do this experiment correctly you would need many of each type of system and it still wouldn't hurt to control for few covariates....

 

[Bigbadreefer]

Hello all first post. Setting aside the possible bias and flaws of the study, what about the results? I find it fancinating that virtually no difference is found in light of all the bad press bio filters get..Don't you?

 

[DrBDC]

It's amazing how many people take off biowheels and remove bioballs to find thier nitrates disappear. Must be everyone's imagination.

 

[Bigbadreefer]

Did you have that happen in your system?

 

[DrBDC]

Not on my own but on a couple systems I've helped fix. One, I actually was able to measure the cycle of ammonia/nitrite as the biowheels/bioballs are very efficient at reducing those. Most of the systems were low on live rock amounts which had to be increased.

 

[Bigbadreefer]

Cool. So what do you think about this study?

 

[DrBDC]

Sounds like the salt comparisons done by aqua craft.

 

[beaglelax]

well for 6 years i have run bio-balls and will do so for as long as i have a system, the person who i have learned fish keeping from has been doing so for 40+ years and like he says it comes and goes but what is always constant is MECHANICAL FILTRATION, im not knocking refuges because they work as well but there is no need to completely lose all mechanical filtraion, the ocean it self has a mechanical filtration on it IT CALLED WAVES , you ever see the "white/brown foam " Remind you of something a skimmer maybe, so i just laugh when i read how people knock bioballs, It all about the KISS method good water movement, LIVE ROCK, Mechanical filtration, ANd the one people forgot because they are lazy and wanna cut corners JUST DO A DARN WATER CHANGE

 

[DrBDC]

We're not talking about protien skimmers being eliminated which is what is like waves.

Ammonia and nitrIte are a non issue in elimination anyway (with adequate live rock) such as the wet/dry and bioball/wheels process. I've yet to see a system get down under 5 on the nitrates using any of the mechanical filters. Even the cannisters (which would be oxygen deprived like the deep pores of the live rock) end up needing cleaned or they also start increasing nitrates. Then when you clean them, they need to start from the beginning again for nitrate reduction. It leaves a small window before they become too dirty again.

That's my car btw I'm on the local dealers wait list.

 

[m2434]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11203751#post11203751 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bigbadreefer
Hello all first post. Setting aside the possible bias and flaws of the study, what about the results? I find it fancinating that virtually no difference is found in light of all the bad press bio filters get..Don't you?

No not really, as I said 1 post above yours, they only have four tanks... there is no statistical power due to the variable nature of marine aquariums. So no, I would not expect them to find a difference even if one really does exist. Bias and "flaws" are a whole other can of worms.

Although that being said, I think if you have X amount of nitrogen precursors, then you will end up with Z amount of nitrate. I think the reason people get more with bioballs is because people don't clean them and excess precursors accumulate. So, I don't really agree that bioballs are "bad", just unnecessary.

 

[m2434]

By the way

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

 

[Sk8r]

I'll tell you, my friends, there's one prime reason I'm a non-bioballs/non-filter type: pure laziness. In a sand and rock reef tank with only a skimmer, you don't have to clean anything. Poo happens. Poo goes away and [thanks to the bristleworms] feeds the corals; and I don't have to scrub nasty sponges or change out gloppy filter floss or even worry about a filter sock [I keep a nice fat ball of cheato between my inflow and outflow in the sump, which functions as a living mechanical filter.]
I just hate cleaning stuff.

 

[acrylic_300]

I have a wet dry filter and bioballs and my Nitrate and Phosphate are zero. I have a lot of Cheato, a denitrator, and a two inch CC substrate.

Because the bioballs float they create gas exchange and this allows less surface flow in the tank. A lot more crud makes it to the over flow when flow is directed at the bottom of the tank.

Crushed Coral and Bioballs allow maximum bottom flow and minimum surface flow.

I'm not sure if I would have Nitrate and Phosphate without the denitrator.

 

[billsreef]

Here's a thought on LR vs bioballs and the nitrate subject. Algae, yes algae. The surfaces of your live rock are filled with it, even if you don't have nuisance algae you will still have lots of algae. IMO the algae is assimilating the ammonia before much of it even turns to nitrates. With bio balls, they are so efficient at converting ammonia to nitrates that they will make that conversion before the algae on the rocks can assimilate the ammonia. Aglae don't assimilate nitrate as rapidly as they can ammonia, therefore you can get those high nitrates in a system with a biofilter and yet in the same system merely remove the biofiliter and watch the nitrates drop.

 

[amoreira]

The skimmer takes out the ammonia causing organic wastes before the bacteria have a chance to get at it. Bioballs are inefficient in that they don't have the same surface area to accommodate nitrifying bacteria as does live rock or live sand. Bioballs have no zone to accomodate the anaerobic bacteria to convert the nitrates to nitrogen. This is called anaerobic respiration:

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C11/...c.edu/microtextbook/metabolism/RespAnaer.html

Anaerobic respiration uptakes the Nitrates and Sulfates, which are a byproduct of aerobic respiration. Liverock has an anearobic zone, as does the deep sandbed.

I'm reading that study and it states that all of the aquaria had 32 kg of live rock (~1 lb/gal). The jaubert style system did not have any and showed a build up of NO3. Alll others showed stable NO3. So I'm thinking that the study just shows the effectiveness of NO3 reduction by the live rock. I'm also thinking that they didn't set up the Jaubert style system correctly as most aquarists these days combine Jaubert style with a good amount of live rock.

I use about 1.5 lb/gal and have a 5 in deep sand bed. I measure NO3 every two weeks and always get 0 for a reading. I'm a staunch supporter of the Berlin method with a deep sand bed.

 

[acrylic_300]

I agree that live rock is the key ingredient to zero nitrates. I haven't tried it but I suspect you could run a tank with live rock, live sand and power heads....nothing else.

 

[greenbean36191]

The methods are really vague and leave me with lots of questions. Two big ones are were the filters appropriately sized for the tank, or were they so small that their effects were small or even negligible? What was the maintenance routine on each tank and was there any attempt to standardize the effort? If the Berlin tank got no maintenance and the Bio-wheel was cleaned or replaced once a week then the numbers don't really show they're equal.

To me there seems to be something very artificial about the data. A few years ago I worked on a project where we were looking at the N produced by clownfish and used by anemones. We had 30 identical tanks and I don't think any of them produced readings that were as similar to each other as the tanks in this experiment. I understand that they probably only did one tank per treatment due to cost, but I'd like to see some replication before I take anything away from this experiment.