Your Quarantine Procedure

TitansFan

Active member
Hello there to a great asset to our hobby. I recently read over what looks to be a new link in your Diver's Den about your Quarantine Procedure. With this procedure is one to assume the fish come ich and other parasite free? I am sure you are still advocates of quarantining all new arrivals to my home but.... could I safely go with out? This in my opinion adds an even greater value for my money. I would not have to spend my time, which is worth money, running a second tank for quarantine procedures.
Thanks
 
TitansFan,

Thank you for your compliments of our Quarantine Procedures. We always recommend the use of a quarantine tank for all new arrivals for the health of the new specimen and to protect your existing collection.

The main cause of the onset of ich is stress; stress can compromise the immune system of the fish making the fish more susceptible to ich as well as other parasites and diseases. This can be caused by the stress the fish encounters during shipment and then being added to the aquarium. Ich is to a fish as a common cold is to people and is present in any aquarium set up, new or old. Any sudden changes in the environment such as the addition of new fish, fluctuations in water quality, and temperature can also bring on an outbreak of ich in an established aquarium.

The fish in our facility are in excellent health when they are packaged for shipment to you. Live specimens may encounter some stress during the shipping process to your home; therefore a quarantine tank is always a good idea.

Joyce F.
LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster & Smith
 


The main cause of the onset of ich is stress; stress can compromise the immune system of the fish making the fish more susceptible to ich as well as other parasites and diseases. This can be caused by the stress the fish encounters during shipment and then being added to the aquarium.

Wrong or misleading information.

The main cause for an Ich outbreak is the presence of the parasite in your aquarium. Ich is a parasite and it must be present for the fish to acquire it. A fish doesn't have to be stressed in the least to get ich (this is a myth). Actually once the fish get's Ich it WILL BECOME STRESSED. However with that said, normally when a living organism is stressed the immune system isn't up to par and it will not fight off diseases as easy.


Ich is to a fish as a common cold is to people and is present in any aquarium set up, new or old. Any sudden changes in the environment such as the addition of new fish, fluctuations in water quality, and temperature can also bring on an outbreak of ich in an established aquarium.

This is simple UNTRUE and FALSE information. It is a parasite not a bacteria and is NOT like a common cold. It isn't airborne, it can't spread by exposure. It can not magically appear out of no where. It is not always present in an aquarium and it must be introduced in order to be found in the aquarium. The parasite must physically be moved into the aquarium. This is scientifically proven and is not open for debate.

I may be in the minority on the following but it seems like you are being irresponsible dosing a lot of antibiotics in your QT systems. Is it a QT system or Hospital System?

"To combat common bacterial infections such as Vibrio, therapeutic baths containing antibiotics such as kanamycin, nitrofurazone, Neomycin and other commercial antibiotics are given."

That's a lot of antibiotics given when most are probably not even needed. The irresponsible use of antibiotics on fish is going to cause problems down the road to the industry as a whole. Fish build up an immune system to these antibiotics and the diseases become harder and harder to fight off. This is the same problem that has happened to humans in recent years with broad spectrum antibiotic use. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing more "super strains".

Under Disease Prevention your site mentions "Other fish such as Angelfish, tangs, certain genus of wrasse, and several other specific species are given therapeutic saltwater baths. These baths contain praziquantel or other medications that eliminate flukes, protozoan, and parasites commonly found on wild fish."

Again the same problem as mentioned above. Dosing meds when it may not be needed.

"In addition to the baths, all quarantined fish are treated with copper sulfate and a 37% formaldehyde solution (Formalin) to combat Amyloodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans."

Wow, a double poison! The study of this type of treatment is really still in it's infancy but already we know that exposure to copper is bad long term on fish. It causes early liver failure and fish exposed to copper typically have shorter lives. Formalin is worse long term then copper. Also worth noting is that certain fish should never be exposed to either of these.

It's one thing to use these "meds" in a hospital tank when a fish is sick and really needs some type of "med", but it's quite another thing to dose these products ESPECIALLY TOGETHER as a "proactive" measure.

I realize LA isn't the only company doing this. Many LFS also use copper in their tanks but many are starting to wise up too. I myself try and make a point whenever possible to purchase specimens that haven't been subjected to a lot of unneeded "therapy".

I myself wouldn't "brag" about my QT setup if I were you but that's only my 2 cents and probably worth less then that.

Carlo
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10425460#post10425460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Wrong or misleading information.

The main cause for an Ich outbreak is the presence of the parasite in your aquarium. Ich is a parasite and it must be present for the fish to acquire it. A fish doesn't have to be stressed in the least to get ich (this is a myth). Actually once the fish get's Ich it WILL BECOME STRESSED. However with that said, normally when a living organism is stressed the immune system isn't up to par and it will not fight off diseases as easy.



This is simple UNTRUE and FALSE information. It is a parasite not a bacteria and is NOT like a common cold. It isn't airborne, it can't spread by exposure. It can not magically appear out of no where. It is not always present in an aquarium and it must be introduced in order to be found in the aquarium. The parasite must physically be moved into the aquarium. This is scientifically proven and is not open for debate.

I may be in the minority on the following but it seems like you are being irresponsible dosing a lot of antibiotics in your QT systems. Is it a QT system or Hospital System?

"To combat common bacterial infections such as Vibrio, therapeutic baths containing antibiotics such as kanamycin, nitrofurazone, Neomycin and other commercial antibiotics are given."

That's a lot of antibiotics given when most are probably not even needed. The irresponsible use of antibiotics on fish is going to cause problems down the road to the industry as a whole. Fish build up an immune system to these antibiotics and the diseases become harder and harder to fight off. This is the same problem that has happened to humans in recent years with broad spectrum antibiotic use. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing more "super strains".

Under Disease Prevention your site mentions "Other fish such as Angelfish, tangs, certain genus of wrasse, and several other specific species are given therapeutic saltwater baths. These baths contain praziquantel or other medications that eliminate flukes, protozoan, and parasites commonly found on wild fish."

Again the same problem as mentioned above. Dosing meds when it may not be needed.

"In addition to the baths, all quarantined fish are treated with copper sulfate and a 37% formaldehyde solution (Formalin) to combat Amyloodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans."

Wow, a double poison! The study of this type of treatment is really still in it's infancy but already we know that exposure to copper is bad long term on fish. It causes early liver failure and fish exposed to copper typically have shorter lives. Formalin is worse long term then copper. Also worth noting is that certain fish should never be exposed to either of these.

It's one thing to use these "meds" in a hospital tank when a fish is sick and really needs some type of "med", but it's quite another thing to dose these products ESPECIALLY TOGETHER as a "proactive" measure.

I realize LA isn't the only company doing this. Many LFS also use copper in their tanks but many are starting to wise up too. I myself try and make a point whenever possible to purchase specimens that haven't been subjected to a lot of unneeded "therapy".

I myself wouldn't "brag" about my QT setup if I were you but that's only my 2 cents and probably worth less then that.


Carlo


May I ask your qualifications and for some references to the literature and research you refer to?

I can assure you that, haivng visited the liveaqauria facility a few times, they are not applying random meds and bombarding fish with drugs. They have a well educated staff with several veterinarians and marine biologists on staff and appear to make careful diagnosis of any pathogens present on incoming fish before determining a course of treatment.

I have been in this hobby, and industry, for more than 20 years and have never seen a vendor take better care of their livestock than liveaquaria.com. I have been to hundreds of LFS and wholesalers across the continent, so this is not a small survey.

I seem to recall reading a study that indicated that close to 100% off all wild caught marine fish carry parasites, both internal and external, but only those with comprimised immune systems are unable to fight them off. I can't recall the text, but am pretty sure of the content.
regardless, can you provide the studies and research you mention?

Also wondering why you would be posting here as this is a feedback forum for customers of this vendor? Are you posting on an experience you had there? Or perhaps, you have an axe to grind?

By the way, I am certainly no doctor, but am pretty sure the common cold is not a bacteria either.....
 
ICH is always present. Even most other dieseases and parasites are present. When we notice them in our tanks, that means the fishes immune system can't easily combat them. Usually this means the fish is stressed.
 
Carlo,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I somewhat agree with SPStoner as to why you have come to our forum to try and discredit what we are accomplishing with fish that enter our facility. You have taken it upon yourself to interpret what we have outlined on our site, and compiled your own conclusions that are far from accurate. The protocols we follow in our facility are in place for the health and well being of the fish that are in our care.

My staff and I are fortunate to work hand in hand with our on site Veterinarians. You can rest assured that we do know how to properly examine and administer medications when needed. I have handled literally millions of tropical fish in my career in the fish industry, working in retail for 8 years, running a marine fish wholesaler/importer for 8 years, and the moving onto to working here in Rhinelander Wisconsin with an incredible staff of talented people. You can be assured that we have the expertise, backgrounds and knowledge to properly handle and care of the marine life in our facility.

Fish that are stressed are far more likely to succumb to Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon that is present in the aquarium or system where they are housed. After the fish are affected, they are even more stressed, which pretty much goes without saying.

We have three dedicated fish systems here at our facility, and none of them are run with antibiotics in the water. Two of the three fish systems are run with copper sulfate, and Copper sulfate with formalin in the water to treat fish that have Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon. We do not house fish in this medication for months. Any experienced person who has handled fish for many years in this industry will tell you that this combination of medications is the best way to kill Cryptocaryon in a closed system, when it is administered in the proper amounts and dosages.

When importing fish from multiple suppliers and exporters almost every day of the week, it is imperative to use this technique to control the vast number of fish that bring in all kinds of nasty parasites and protozoa into any facility. A good book for you to pick up that backs up some of the methodologies we employ is called Diseases of Marine Aquarium Fish by Gerald Bassleer. Dr. Bassleer is a fish pathobiologist who is one of the most respected professionals in the field of marine fish diseases.

As far as medication with antibiotics for bacterial infections, we do NOT create some antibiotic soup to treat these fish, nor do we run antibiotics in ANY of our systems. Your interpretation of what we have written again is far from the truth. I have listed some of the more common medications that we use in our facility to treat fish that have Vibrio or other bacterial infections. We prefer to medicate fish properly rather than watching them perish in our hands. Antibiotic baths means just that, the fish is placed in an individual isolation tank/container with an air stone and is bathed in the antibiotic we have chosen to administer. We do not dump these antibiotics into our fish systems as it would create major problems on many fronts from destroying the nitrifying bacteria to creating resistant strains of bacteria that would be detrimental to our fish. We employ ozone and UV sterilization to limit bacterial pathogens from spreading to other fish.

I hope this clarifies some of our methodologies and protocols better, and I would ask that if you have any further questions to please feel free and contact me directly at kkohen@liveaquaria.com . Thank you.

Sincerely,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
 
Our facility is open for public inspection during our annual fish and coral conference. Rather than make false assumptions, please join us with the other 700 attendees. We are proud of our facility and it is perhaps the very best in the United States. We would love to have you join us and be a part of it.

Race Foster, D.V.M.
 
Kevin, Actually, my bad.

I missed the word "bath/baths" in two spots. That does make a world of difference and I wouldn't have written what I did. A short bath is common practice even with multiple different meds and is far different then what I thought I "read". The brain/eyes played tricks on me. :)

Sorry for any problem my post might have caused.

With that said, I'm still not a fan of the copper/formalin combo but what you are doing isn't out of the ordinary from a lot of importers and LFS. Most don't run the combination of meds however. If you don't mind me asking how long are the fish in this combo for?

Carlo

PS aggie4231, Ich is a parasite, it's not a virus or bacteria. It's not airborne and can't appear out of no where. It MUST be moved into the tank in order for you to get it. This is scientifically proven and anyone who has studied the life cycle of any of these parasites would know this to be true without a doubt.

The problem for LiveAquaria and other fish stores is that they have no control over the importers systems. You just don't know what fish come in with the parasites and which ones don't have it. Unless you do something proactively to break the life cycle of the parasite (copper is one way) then it spreads in your system and you end up selling customers fish with parasites.

PPS While I'm not a fan of copper I'd still have way more faith in the way LA is doing this then say your typically LFS who has a lot of "kids" working in the store. Fish get bagged, water is added and the copper levels change a lot. Also most LFS typically run copper all the time so a fish that comes in may not be there long enough to break the cycle (you buy fish with parasites) or sits there for a long time always in copper (bad). With LAs approach it sounds to be very controlled and about a safe as you get.

Is that better guys? I'm big enough to note when I'm wrong or read something wrong and surely wouldn't want that error to affect a company or it's reputation.
 
I totally agree ick is not caused by stress. If the parasite is present and the fish undergo stress then the parasite will be able to gain a foothold on the specimen. An otherwise healthy fish that has a fully intact immune system will be able to fight it off and we will not see any signs of ick even though it might be in the system. But if there is no ick parasite present in the system then no matter how much stress the fish undergoes, it will not get ick. I am sure LiveAquaria's staff understands this but it seems their wording is not fully communicating this, at least in my opinion.

Routine 6-8 week quarantining is a vital part of introducing a new specimen to your established system, in my opinion, no matter where you acquire the fish. Just because the fish has not show any signs of ick while in liveaquaria's possession does not give you a free ticket to forgo your own quarantine process. As Kevin stated, an overnight shipment process, including acclimating them to new water chemistry, is stress inducing and with a compromised immune system the fish may begin showing symptoms that it was not while under their care. Also there are a multitude of reasons besides disease why you should qt your fish, including giving them a safe haven to begin feeding without competition and getting used to their new environment without further stress from other fish.
 
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Carlo,

If a fish is infected with Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon we will house them in our independent, medication fish system that is run with Ionic Copper at 0.15-0.20 ppm and formalin for a minimum of 14-21 days at 78 degrees. At this temperature and time frame, we are sure to eradicate the parasite when it drops off the fish, divides into the palmella daughter cells and becomes free swimming. This is the only time during its life cycle that the medication will kill the parasite. Once the fish is exhibiting normal behavior, is breathing at the proper gill beats per minute, and is eating well again, it is then acclimated back to our quarantine system for further observation and conditioning.

In the 31 plus years of maintaining aquariums, from being a hard core hobbyist myself, to a professional in the marine aquarium industry, this medication method is hands down the most effective means of control for the above mentioned parasites. Although there are other ways to treat for Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon, I would not alter our protocols as it is a proven method that successfully eradicates these parasites with no ill effects on the long term health of the fish.

As some of you have stated on this thread, when a fishes’ immune system is weakened by stress, poor health, lack of proper diets, aggression, rapid fluctuations in temperature, specific gravity, or subjected to poor water chemistry, some fish will often be affected by parasitic or other infections. Marine fish vary considerably in their ability to naturally fight off disease. Some fish have a thicker slime coat, or are just more disease resistant than others in our aquariums. This is why you will sometimes see an aquarium full of beautiful, healthy fish, where one fish is affected with Cryptocaryon and the others are perfectly fine.

There are numerous bacteria, parasites, and other nasty pests that have been introduced into our aquariums that can be present at any given time. This can be due to the introduction of live rock, corals, invertebrates (yes they can bring these parasites into the aquarium but are not affected by say Cryptocaryon), and the introduction of the fish themselves. The use of ozone and ultraviolet sterilization will help to control the populations of these potentially harmful pests.

I always recommend quarantining any new fish, coral, invertebrate, and any other live organism no matter where you acquire these animals before placing them in your display aquarium. This practice is a must even if you purchase animals from your next door neighbor’s pristine aquarium. The risk of introducing some pathogen or pest into our displays is not worth it as we all have invested so much time and effort into our home displays.

Happy Reefing,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
 
Kevin, what you just wrote is a little different then the website info. On the website it says

"In addition to the baths, all quarantined fish are treated with copper sulfate and a 37% formaldehyde solution (Formalin) to combat Amyloodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans."

but above you just said
"If a fish is infected with Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon we will house them in our independent, medication fish system that is run with Ionic Copper at 0.15-0.20 ppm and formalin for a minimum of 14-21 days at 78 degrees."

So I'm slightly confused on the process. Is it "all fish" or only those with visible signs of a parasite?

In a way it's kind of a trick question although that was not my intent. On the one hand if you treat "all fish" then you know the parasites will be killed off by the time they leave QT.

On the other hand if you only treat fish with visible signs then fish without visible signs but still carring the parasite can easily get past QT and still carry it through the system and on to the customer.

What about more sensitive fish like mandarins, sharks & rays? Do you expose them to copper?

You mention running "Ionic Copper at 0.15-0.20 ppm and formalin for a minimum of 14-21 days at 78 degrees".

I'm not sure what copper you are actually using but some manufactures of copper tell you to never mix it with formalin. For example: http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html

"Q: Is there is any problem with using Formalin in concentration of 25mg/l with Cupramine ?
A; YES! Do not use Formalin with Cupramine or any other copper medication. It will reduce the Copper +2 to Copper +1 which is highly toxic at even small doses."

Any comment on this?

I've read other studies (wish I could give you a link) about long term health of fish exposed to this combo of meds for even short periods and it wasn't good.

Sorry to be a pain but just trying to understand.

Carlo
 
Carlo,

We have three dedicated fish systems here in our facility. The smallest system is used as a medication system and this is where we run Copper sulfate and Formalin in combination with each other to medicate fish that have visible signs of Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon. If a fish shows signs of either parasitic infections it is acclimated into this system so that we can treat for these specific parasites. The second fish system in our facility is a dedicated quarantine system where we run Ionic copper and house and condition our fish until they are ready to be sold in the Divers Den section of the LiveAquaria.com web site. Once a fish has been quarantined, conditioned, and is ready for sale, it is then acclimated into our main fish system where we do not run Ionic copper, and the fish is photographed, and loaded onto the Divers Den section of the site. The fish is then maintained in our Main Fish System until it is sold and leaves our facility.

We do not house cartilaginous fish in any form of Copper as it is very toxic to these fishes. We offer a limited number of sharks and a few rays, all of which are maintained in our system where we quarantine our LPS, Soft Corals, Polyps, Mushrooms and Inverts. This 4000 gallon system is run independently, and utilizes a 12 foot fractionator (protein skimmer), fluidized sand bed, chiller, and a 1000 mg Ozone generator with Redox controller.

There are two commercially available forms of Copper Sulfate for use on ornamental fishes; cheated copper sulfate and ionic copper sulfate. We use ionic copper sulfate here at our facility as it is safe to use with our equipment and set-up, as well as safe to use with formalin. Ionic copper has a tendency to precipitate out of the water rather quickly and can absorb into the substrate easily. The benefit of using this form of copper is that it will not be broken down when exposed to any oxidizing agent such as ozone, ultraviolet sterilization, or formalin. Seachem’s copper medication called Cupramine is a chelated copper sulfate, and differs greatly from ionic forms of copper medications. The copper ions in Cupramine are chelated or bound to other compound(s) to form a more stable solution. When using chelated copper sulfate a much stronger concentration is normally used (0.25-0.30ppm) and there is a much greater margin of error. Chelated products weather they be copper, Iodine, or any other supplement or medication should not be used in systems that are run with Ozone or UV sterilizers. Both Ozone and UV’s are oxidizers, and will break the chelating bond of copper in this example, which will cause the level of copper sulfate in the water to be at such a strong concentration, that is will be toxic to the fish we are trying to medicate.

I hope this better explains things Carlo, and once again, if you have any further questions, comments, or suggestions, please feel free to email me at kkohen@liveaquaria.com.

Cheers!
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
 
Nope, no more questions.

Thanks for clearly explaining your procedure and not taking offense to my posts. It was comforting to read your responses and I'm sure others now have a much better understanding of your system/setup/procedure and professionalism too.

Thanks,
Carlo
 
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