200g in-wall project officially started

[Benny Z]

good idea.

when is that diy meeting going to be again? could we, by chance, build two different types of skimmers?

also, good idea about the elbos on the bulkheads. however, i don't know if i want to push the overflow out far enough to allow elbos. there are five of those bulkheads across the back top of the tank. i was thinking the sheer number of them would help elliminate gurgling noises. ...and even if they don't, they will be in a dedicated room, so i'm not all that worried about noise.

what do you think?

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6296710#post6296710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AnnArborBuck
Maybe you play horeshoes where close is good enough.

as an engineer the game of horse shoes must really annoy you. the concept where one does not need to be exact and yet still have the opportunity to be completely successful and reach their goal must be a hard concept for you to grasp

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6298335#post6298335 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxer85
okay, hcs3, i think you're correct w/ the wood. but, i think you're off base on the support issue. and i think annarbor is playing the same game.
I've attached a pdf "plan" or top view of a stand that someone just built and posted for a 600 gallon tank

its located on page 9 of this thread :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6297255#post6297255

i could not find the image you were talking about unless you are refering to the iron stand. if you are refering to the iron stand i do not think we can compare the two IMO.

and i think you guys are misunderstanding me anyway. i am not saying the center will not support the load, i am saying you do not want it supporting the load. this is why...

i gave the stand an imaginary size, say 4'x8' and did a very quick tributary area diagram, showing how much of the area each column will support. as you can see, the corner columns are supporting the LEAST amount of weight, while the centrally located columns are supporting quite a bit more weight.

which yields uneven support for the tank. you can do it anyway you want, but there is a reason why new aquariums are not warrantied if they are not on manufactured stands. uneven support = broken aquariums.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6298997#post6298997 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rick rottet
I do think there is some "apples and oranges" (or football and baseball) in the discussion about the stand. The way I'm reading it, Henry is (correctly) saying that IF the long sides of stand were built with 2" X 6" (or 2" X 8", or 2" X 10") material, the center of those long sides wouldn't need to be supported...and hence, the weight would be carried by the four legs at the corners, because they would be the only legs.

give that man a bozo button!

....I just can't imagine that a 4" X 4" with four supports evenly spaced across a 6' span wouldn't support a 200 gallon tank.

oh it will no doubt. that was never in question. creating a stand with 8 legs and zero pressure points for an ametuer woodworker is what is at question.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6299053#post6299053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Benny Z
i am pretty particular when it comes to details, but i am hardly a craftsman.

do yourself a HUGE favor. since you live in bloomington there is new housing construction all around you. take a drive by and walk inside a home that is still stud walls. pay particular attention to how the windows are framed into the walls. also take a look at how walls are joined at the corners using a double header. might be a good idea to take a camera with you so you can reference it while you build. if you were taking my advice you would be building 4 seperate "window walls" and adjoining them in standard fashion.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6299152#post6299152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tschopp
The center legs will hold more weight, but I don't see how this is relevant. The center legs on my stand hold much more than the outside legs, that is why I am only using 3 steel columns under the tank and they are under the center legs, the floor joist have to carry the weight from the other legs.

steve i have not yet seen your tank so i am having a hard time picturing what you are saying. do you have a photo of what you are describing in the above snipet?

is your stand steel or wood?

your tank is also about 3x's the size of the aquarium we are discussing for benny, though, right?

 

[rick rottet]

Originally posted</a> by hcs3
give that man a bozo button!

Um, I'll take what's behind door #2

 

[AnnArborBuck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6299622#post6299622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hcs3
and i think you guys are misunderstanding me anyway. i am not saying the center will not support the load, i am saying you do not want it supporting the load. this is why...



which yields uneven support for the tank. you can do it anyway you want, but there is a reason why new aquariums are not warrantied if they are not on manufactured stands. uneven support = broken aquariums.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The support is not uneven, the load over the center of the tank is more then the load over the corners. You can use a big header to carry this load to the corners, but again, the main force is STILL in the center of the tank. Using a header to transfer the weight is fine if the header is big enoug to handle it. And you are correct in that instead of a 4x4 you are better off using typical header construction, a pair of 2x6 sandwiching a plywood core.

There are lots of reasons why aquarium manufacturers only waranty their tanks on their stands, one is $$$, and one is common sense. If you notice most stands built buy aquarium companies use plywood that is the whole stand. Plywood is VERY strong in compression, the only issue with using plywood is that the joints need to be very good. The other thing to note is the plywood goes around the hole tank for the most part, there is usually one small opening in the back and a small front door. Why is that, because most of the weight is in the very middle of the tank.

 

[tschopp]

steve i have not yet seen your tank so i am having a hard time picturing what you are saying. do you have a photo of what you are describing in the above snipet?

is your stand steel or wood?

your tank is also about 3x's the size of the aquarium we are discussing for benny, though, right?

I am not too good at ascii drawings, but I will give it a try:

this is a view from the top, the X is where the legs are, I have 3 beams made from a single 2x6 that run the 8' length of the tank at the front, middle and back. I have cross bracing to tie the beams togeather at the 0', 4', and 8' length. The cross bracing is again a single 2x6. The legs are 2x6 and they butt to the bottom of the beams. I have 4x4 in the corners that the 2x6's are screwed to (beams and legs). The 4x4 are not structural, but they do hold the wood in the proper place. The beams are repeated at the bottom of the stand.

0'.................4'.................8'

X=========X=========X back
||__________||_________||
|X=========X========X| middle
||__________||_________||
X=========X=========X front

My stand is similar to the steel one mentioned above, except that I do not have any support at the 2' or 6' length and I have an extra beam down the middle that the steel frame does not. Other than that and the fact that mine is wood not steel, the photo gives a good idea what my stand looks like. I also have a 3/4" deck of plywood on the top.

I can't take any photos of the stand with the tank in place and built into the wall that would be usefull.

My tank is 500 gal with a footprint of 8' x 39"

I needed the middle legs for a few reasons:
1. without the middle legs I think I would have needed 2 x12 for the beams and for the height that I wanted the tank I would not be able to crawl into the stand to work on stuff.

2. I would have had to put steel columns under all the legs and this would have interfered with the location of the washer and dryer in the basement.

I understand your concerns about getting the load evenly distibuted, I was highly concerned with this as well and the fit on the stand was done more carefully than the fit on the tank, not that the fit on the tank is sloppy. My concern is not just poorly loading the aquarium, but if the legs on my stand don't carry the expected load, the floor won't be able to handle it.

 

[tschopp]

I think the point that henry is trying to make is that if one of the middle legs is too long and the aquarium is not flexible (glass) that this will put alot of stress on the tank at this point and it will break.

If the leg is too short, the header will not be big enough to carry the weight it will bend and the tank will break.

On an acrylic tank it wont break right away, but it will cause stress that leads to failure later.

In general it is a bad idea to make a stand with middle legs and headers that would be too small to be used without support from middle legs unless the construction is flawless.

If you go with 4 legs then you can have non-perfect construction and things are still OK. Or you can use a big header at the top and put as many legs as you want knowing that a few might carry no load.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6300264#post6300264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tschopp
I think the point that henry is trying to make is that if one of the middle legs is too long and the aquarium is not flexible (glass) that this will put alot of stress on the tank at this point and it will break.

If the leg is too short, the header will not be big enough to carry the weight it will bend and the tank will break.

On an acrylic tank it wont break right away, but it will cause stress that leads to failure later.

In general it is a bad idea to make a stand with middle legs and headers that would be too small to be used without support from middle legs unless the construction is flawless.

If you go with 4 legs then you can have non-perfect construction and things are still OK. Or you can use a big header at the top and put as many legs as you want knowing that a few might carry no load.

:thumbsup:

i really need to get out and see your tank someday. you and david are insane for building tanks so damn large

 

[w2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6303679#post6303679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hcs3
:thumbsup:

i really need to get out and see your tank someday. you and david are insane for building tanks so damn large

Hmmmm.....Jealousy????

You'll have one even bigger before it's all said and done.......

 

[Benny Z]

well, it's confirmed that the 4x4s are definately prone to warping. one of the 4x4 top rails that we had made now has a nice bow to it.

can someone post a link to a proper diy how-to article/thread for a large stand? i think we're going to start over.

thanks.

 

[DKKA]

Hey Benny, that's a bummer, but don't get too discouraged. If I had a dollar for every DIY fish project of mine that didn't work out.....

 

[Benny Z]

thanks... i'm not discouraged. well, maybe a little. lol i'm not completely beat down, though.

for reference - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=731927

 

[Benny Z]

in searching the site for diy stands, i found this...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=709837&highlight=stand+building

is this stand design one that i should duplicate, but add center braces?

 

[Benny Z]

and another, very similar design. i think i'll stick with 2x6s for the top rail instead of 2x4 like he did, though...

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=13879

am i on a better path?

 

[DKKA]

Benny,

I've only built one stand from scratch, (it was fugly...but study as heck) so I don't have a lot of input on those plans. But I do have another option for you.

I don't know how much you have your heart set on building a stand, but you also have the option of an RTA (ready to assemble) stand that you can order on-line.

I just did this on the 30 gallon cube in the bedroom. It came unassembled, and in unfinished oak. It was easy enough together and to put on a few coats of polyurethane. It was a lot nicer than anything I probably would have built. The guy that made the kit was very quick about returning emails, and I think I got the stand in two weeks.

His seller name on ebay was jt_from_kc. He sells sells std sizes, but also does custom stuff. The price was probably not much more (and maybe less) than if I had to buy the lumber myself.

let me know if you are interested in going this route and I can track down his email address....hopefully.

Dan

 

[Benny Z]

i would definately be interested in his contact info.

if i can seriously get this for less than the cost of lumber, then i'd say it's pretty much a no-brainer. ...especially since all i'm looking for is the frame.

however, someone mentioned here that ups won't ship anything 80" long, so i don't think it's going to be less than the cost of lumber with the cost of freight.

 

[tschopp]

the top design looks good. Rails on the top and bottom, legs butted between the rails, Som non-structural wood to screw it all togeather then some plywood on the outside to really brace it well.