220 Inwall - Plan

[melev]

Are you talking about the quarantine system only? If you want to put your fish in quarantine for about 6 weeks, you could to make sure you start off with 100% healthy fish.

Myself, I tend to move the fish from the old tank to the new one, and quarantine the fish that are new to my system.

 

[tgunn]

Bryan,
Just a question about your QT tank in the pics you took:

It's probably not the final location, but are you going to have the QT hanging over the edge of the shelf like that? Might put a bit of stress on it to be unsupported for that little bit.

Tyler

 

[bheron]

Marc - hey, yea, thats what I was talking about. I was just planning on QT'ing new fish. But then I thought, "maybe my current fish have ich and they're just so healthy that its not visible?" is that dumb?

Tyler - good catch man!! Yep, you are so right. One of the reasons I didnt finish that section is for that exact reason. Last night, in fact, I put a piece of plywood that extends out far enough - it extends maybe an inch on either side. I htink that should do fine. Funny thing - of all the cuts and measurements I've had to do for this project, PVC, wood, etc, I finally got a break. I went an grabbed a piece of scrap plywood to use for this overhang and....as luck would have it....it fit exactly! to the 16th of an inch!! so....finally I catch a break

thanks for noticing.

 

[tgunn]

Bryan,
Ah, okay, that's what I figured.

It's nice when you manage to find a scrap that's just right isn't it? I've had that a few times with PVC pieces too.

Tyler

 

[melev]

Marc - hey, yea, thats what I was talking about. I was just planning on QT'ing new fish. But then I thought, "maybe my current fish have ich and they're just so healthy that its not visible?" is that dumb?

Not dumb at all. If you want to do that, by all means go for it. You probably should transfer some LR with them. If you don't see any indications of illness after 14 days, they can go into the new reef, but if they do break out with Ich, pull out the LR and begin hyposalinity.

 

[bheron]

Well, here's the trick question: I dont think they'll break out with anything since they really never have had a disease. So, do I run them with no LR and Hyposalinity for a few weeks just to rid any ich that might be there?

THAT's the dumb question I was trying to ask.

 

[melev]

Well, I don't think I would do it. It just seems like you're asking for trouble, stressing them out unnecessarily.

However, there is a thread called Quarantine 101 in the All Things Salty forum, and you could post this question there.

 

[bheron]

Mini Update

Mini Update

Sorry, not too much to update here.


Marc - missed your comment eariler about the QT. Thanks, I think I'll hold off on the idea for now. Thx.


Ok, here'sw what I accomplished over the weekend:

- Drained and wiped down the display and sump.


Who-hooo! Seriously, that took a long time! After I drained everything, including the overflow boxes, I had to get up there and wipe it down. Its one of those times that makes me realize how big a tank like this is!

Also, a trip to a great LFS in my area and bought the following:

- Sea Salt. This place has Crystal Sea for 17.99 in boxes! $2 less than in the containers. I bought 3x150 gallons worth.

- Heater. Got a Won Titantium 300W heater. Paid an extra $25 for the digital controller. Figured this would be my fail safe heater and an element not to skimp on.

- Ground Probe. Never used one before but with my Mag18 and the planned Tunze 6080's I'm getting, best to have one of these.


Finally, I've been slowly organizing my Fish Room with some shelves and cases. I'll post pics later.

Next steps:

- Right now, I'm slowly making my RODI water. I'm not confident enough to let this thing run 24/7 while I'm not there. Even though everything's hooked up and running, I'm making water during the hourse I'm home. With close to 300 gallons needed, this will take a bit. My RODI is a 75gpd unit. So, if I feel brave, I may leave it on a bit while I'm at work.

- Big purchases. Ok, I've been holding off on these for a while now. Mostly I've been buying stuff only when I have the cash on hand. But, not wanting to delay the project any longer, I'm diggin into some reserve funds for the following:

1) Lights - awhile back I decided on T5s. Yep, a whole other thread on that topic, but thats my choice. Getting an 8x80W Retrofit setup from Reefgeek.com for about $1,000.

2) Tunzes - going with 2 Tunze Stream 6080's for flow in my tank. Each is 2200 GPH. No fancy controllers or anything in the budget. Total cost is just over $400.

3) Base Rock - gettin about 100lbs of base rock from Capt Jer at Reeferrocks. Will cook these and add them to my current 100lbs of live rock.

SO, I think I'm gonna order everything today while I wait for the water to be finished.

I will definitely need some time to figure out the lights. Up until now I've only used VO and PC fixtures that all I had to do was change the bulbs. A retrofit is likely to give me retro-fits. And I need to come up with some creative ideas to place the Tunzes so I can easily access them for cleaning.

I'll post those ideas soon along with pics of the fish room.

 

[tgunn]

Re: Mini Update

Re: Mini Update

Bryan,

Amazing how long it takes to clean out the tank isn't it? I had it easy with my tank because I could just use a garden hose to spray most of the gunk out. All the water drained down my closed loop and out the drain I put near the C/L pump in the basement... The sump was a bit more of a challenge.

I have 3 Won Bros titanium heaters with the controllers. They work great; no complaints so far.

Here's a tip: a 300 watt heater is going to take a LONG time to get your water up to temp when you first get the tank going. It took me 3 days to heat the water up from 62F (fresh RO/DI) to the 78F. I'd put the heater in as soon as you have enough water to start heating....

I started with two 150 watt heaters and have added another 250watt heater; I find all my pumps and T5s aren't adding anywhere near as much heat as expected... Consequently I need to HEAT my water rather than cool it.. Not that I'm complaining.

Hooking up the T5 retros isn't too difficult; if you got the Triad ballasts they have a diagram on how to hook them up right on each ballast. If you are going to mount your ballasts right beside the lights, there should be enough wire included with the kit. If you plan on mounting the ballasts further away (I mounted them on top of my canopy) you'll definitely need more wire.

The wire the SLS T5 retros use is 18 guage solid conductor copper wire. I had a helk of a time finding 18 guage solid core wire locally; HD doesn't carry it, and neither did a bunch of electrical supply places. If you need some, you can get it from DigiKey; I paid $20 USD for 100feet of the stuff. That's about as cheap as it'll come. The part number for it on digikey is: C2119B-100-ND. It's sold under the name "BLACK 18AWG HOOKUP WIRE SOLID"....

Hey, this is my 1000th post!

Later,
Tyler

 

[melev]

Congrats Tyler.

Bryan, since you've done your homework on T5's I'm going to just ask one question: What will it cost you to replace all of those bulbs when it is time? I know one guy that just sold off his entire system rather than plunk down the cash to replace those bulbs. :eek2: And he actually PAID me a consultation fee since he was so far away.

For heating, you are aware that it is 3w per gallon, correct? If your system is 220g, you'd need 660w of heat. Adding a sump you'll need more.

Also, there is a tip in this page that I added to speed up production of your RO unit when the source water is colder. It won't cost you much, so I'd recommend it. [rodifaq] I think it is on Page 2.

 

[bheron]

Hey guys thanks for the great feedback....


Tyler - "Here's a tip: a 300 watt heater is going to take a LONG time to get your water up to temp when you first get the tank going. It took me 3 days to heat the water up from 62F (fresh RO/DI) to the 78F. I'd put the heater in as soon as you have enough water to start heating....

- Thanks. Again, something I wouldnt realize but then makes sense with a tank so big!

"I started with two 150 watt heaters and have added another 250watt heater; I find all my pumps and T5s aren't adding anywhere near as much heat as expected... Consequently I need to HEAT my water rather than cool it.. Not that I'm complaining."

- I SOOO hope this happens with me. I will have three submersed pumps but it would be great if I dont have to cool. I'm pretty sure, however, I'll be overheating come next summer -- it happened with my 75g with 160W of light.

"Hooking up the T5 retros isn't too difficult; if you got the Triad ballasts they have a diagram on how to hook them up right on each ballast. If you are going to mount your ballasts right beside the lights, there should be enough wire included with the kit. If you plan on mounting the ballasts further away (I mounted them on top of my canopy) you'll definitely need more wire."

- Thats good to know. The set I'm getting will have 3 icecap ballasts (2x660, 1x440). Ideally I want them mounted above to keep heat away, so, I'll definitely have to check that when I order and make sure I have the wire. Sounds like I might be searching around like you did. When I order, if they cant supply the extra wire I'll check out that Digikey source below. $20 isnt bad. Thanks for the exact details!!

Congrats on your 1000th!

Marc - "Bryan, since you've done your homework on T5's I'm going to just ask one question: What will it cost you to replace all of those bulbs when it is time? I know one guy that just sold off his entire system rather than plunk down the cash to replace those bulbs. And he actually PAID me a consultation fee since he was so far away."

- Ah! Great question. I actually did some work on this awhile back. When I did that, T5s were still relatively new, so not all data was available. Here's my assumptions (tell me if I'm off):

Got these from Reefgeek website...

6x80W T5
<li> Cost for a T5 replacement bulb: $30
<li> Total number of bulbs: 8
<li> Estimated lifespan: 18-24 months*
<li> Monthly maintenance cost: 30*8/18 = $13.33

*This was the data thats an estimate. People beleive they can last that long. So, for my study, I used 18 mos.

3 x 250W MH
<li> Cost for an MH replacement bulb: $89.95
<li> Total number of bulbs: 3
<li> Estimated lifespan: 9-12 months*
<li> Monthly maintenance cost: 89.95*3/9 = $29.95

*Again, I've never owned MH bulbs but I hear they go for 9-12 mos.

Also, I beleive the 750W of MH will cost more in electrical costs than the 640W of T5. But thats just a hunch.

Based on the above, it will be much cheaper, in my opinion, to maintain the T5s. thoughts?


Marc - "For heating, you are aware that it is 3w per gallon, correct? If your system is 220g, you'd need 660w of heat. Adding a sump you'll need more."

- Yes, completely aware. I shouldve stated that my heater purchase was in addition to my current heaters. I already have another 250W submersible glass heater and a 150W glass heater. Thats a total of 700W. Thanks for checking!

"Also, there is a tip in this page that I added to speed up production of your RO unit when the source water is colder. It won't cost you much, so I'd recommend it. "

- Damn!! Thats sweet. took me awhile to find it b/c I was soaking up all the other tips in there (great thread). Anyway, I had no idea it dropped in colder temps. I need to find some extra tubing anyway, so I'll make sure to get the 25' in addition and try this out. cool!

All, thanks so much for the great feedback. Wasnt expecting so much knowledge gain in two posts.

 

[tgunn]

- Thanks. Again, something I wouldnt realize but then makes sense with a tank so big!
- I SOOO hope this happens with me. I will have three submersed pumps but it would be great if I dont have to cool. I'm pretty sure, however, I'll be overheating come next summer -- it happened with my 75g with 160W of light.
- Thats good to know. The set I'm getting will have 3 icecap ballasts (2x660, 1x440). Ideally I want them mounted above to keep heat away, so, I'll definitely have to check that when I order and make sure I have the wire. Sounds like I might be searching around like you did. When I order, if they cant supply the extra wire I'll check out that Digikey source below. $20 isnt bad. Thanks for the exact details!!

Congrats on your 1000th!

Based on the above, it will be much cheaper, in my opinion, to maintain the T5s. thoughts?
[/B]

Yeah, true enough; I think when it comes summer I may have to worry about cooling since the house will sit at a much warmer temperature. Guess we'll see when that time comes. For now I've got another 6 months until I have to worry about it.

Yup, see what wire they include; it may be enough. You can always ask; I think ReefGeek will give you extra wire pretty cheap.

Heh, thanks! 1000 posts already. But I guess as I learn more I'm able to participate in other people's threads more instead of just trolling along.

I think the T5s have their pros and cons. You'll be able to grow just about anything under that setup, and you'll get great coloration, etc too.

If you want to save a bit on the bulbs you can always throw a GE Daylight T5 or two into the mix; they're 6500k bulbs, but you can buy them from a lighting distributor for about $14 each.. I'd get all good bulbs with the setup from ReefGeek though (since you're getting them "included" in the price anyways)..

I love my T5s so far. They're very cool running and give off a lot of light.

That said, I've seen LittleBlueGT's reef (he lives in my city) and the light from the halides is just astounding; it looks just like the water did when I was snorkeling in barbados.

Tyler

 

[LittleBlueGT]

astounding; it looks just like the water did when I was snorkeling in barbados.

Tyler

Hopefully it looks just as astounding and prettier with my pheonix bulbs.

 

[bheron]

Tyler - thanks for the feedback. I'll make sure to check with Reefgeek when I order - tomorrow. We'll see what they say. Didnt know the 6500 bulbs could be cheaper. Thx.

Also, after reading that great link Marc posted on the ROD FAQs (
RODI ) I did a quick test tonight on my setup.

I bought an Airwaterice Typhoon III RODI back in Jan 2003. I love the thing and the vendor as well! Best experience. Anyway, I've just been assuming that, over time, the membrane and DI have just lost a little bit. Initally I used to get readings of 001-004. Perfect. After awhile It started going to more like 007-010. I knew it wasnt perfect RODI but I still used it, figuring I'd replace the cartridge(s) with this setup. Turns out I may not have to:

I just took the following readings, based on that article:

- Tap Water: 234 TDS

- RO Water: 004 TDS (well within the 10% range)

- RODI Water: 002 (not at the 0-1, but still, I think, great!)

Not sure if this means I should replace the DI cartridge or not, but I'm pretty happy about it.

Finally, while the water is making up I went to work on my SSB (Shallow Sand Bed). I had one bag of Southdown left over from Jan 2003 from my old setup and I figured I could use that? I just want a very thin layer (1" max) of sand on the bottom of my tank. I just like the look. NO DSB for me. Anyway, I was surprised to find that one 50lb bag easily covers the bottom of the tank! Thought I was gonna have to track down more. I even have some left for my holding tank.

I was just wondering, this bag has been sitting in my basement for almost 2 years. Can it go "bad"?

 

[melev]

6x80W T5
<li> Cost for a T5 replacement bulb: $30
<li> Total number of bulbs: 8
<li> Estimated lifespan: 18-24 months*
<li> Monthly maintenance cost: 30*8/18 = $13.33

*This was the data thats an estimate. People beleive they can last that long. So, for my study, I used 18 mos.

3 x 250W MH
<li> Cost for an MH replacement bulb: $89.95
<li> Total number of bulbs: 3
<li> Estimated lifespan: 9-12 months*
<li> Monthly maintenance cost: 89.95*3/9 = $29.95

*Again, I've never owned MH bulbs but I hear they go for 9-12 mos.

Also, I beleive the 750W of MH will cost more in electrical costs than the 640W of T5. But thats just a hunch.

Based on the above, it will be much cheaper, in my opinion, to maintain the T5s. thoughts?

Thats sweet. took me awhile to find it b/c I was soaking up all the other tips in there (great thread). Anyway, I had no idea it dropped in colder temps. I need to find some extra tubing anyway, so I'll make sure to get the 25' in addition and try this out. cool!

All, thanks so much for the great feedback. Wasnt expecting so much knowledge gain in two posts.

Here's the thing about those bulbs. It is nice to break down the price to monthly installments, but we don't buy them that way. 3 MH bulbs will cost you $60 to $90 each, depending where you shop. I buy used ones from the club members all the time, because they never last as long as I'd like. My Tangs splash and shatter them monthly. However, if you need 8 new bulbs at $30 each, you'll need to pay $240. Of course, buying a few 6500K bulbs at Home Depot for cheaper helps, and I've recommended that to people using IceCap VHOs for years. Saves quite a bit actually. Plus, you may get some cool bundle offer where you buy 8 bulbs and there is a discount. I honestly don't think they will last 18 months legitimately. I had T5's briefly and wasn't impressed. What impressed me most was running MH, T5s AND VHOs in the same tank, and man did the colors pop.

MH looks better, I promise you. You run them higher off the water, and can blow the heat away easily. You can reach in your tank more easily without touching the lighting (9" to 12" of space). RJWilson had a lovely T5 tank that many envied, but recently he upgrade to a larger tank and MH. His recent comment was that he liked how he didn't have to move the lights to work in the tank. Also, leaving the lights over the tank when you reach in means you can still see what you are doing.

Once you've got your tank filled up with water, put a fluorescent light bulb over it. Any shop light will be fine. Look at the tank. Put something in there. Turn off the lights in the room and look at it. Now turn off the shop light and shine a flashlight down through the water. The beam shooting through the rippling water will make cool looking glimmer lines. Those lines are more than a nice effect. According to some reading I did in one of Eric Borneman's books, those glimmer lines are actually intense lighting, compared the rest of the light already shining down. Each time those pass over the coral, they get an extra boost of light, but it never stays on the coral long so damage isn't a consideration.

I just stumbled across a thread by FastUno that is about 8 months old. It is 6 pages long and talks about the issues that T5s seem to have on some corals in his tank.

So now it sounds like I'm trying to force you to change your plan. Nope - that's not my method. However, I'd like you to know more now, before the money is spent, so you can make an informed decision.

The RO tubing is sold at Home Depot in various lengths. It doesn't cost much, and is near all the tubing and quick connect fittings. Look on the bottom shelf near your feet.

 

[melev]

As long as your RO/DI results are that good, there is no reason to change. I tend to change mine every 6 months, or if TDS goes over 10. The membrane in my unit is now 3 years old.

 

[bheron]

Hey Marc, good points. Of course nobody needs another MH/T5 thread here so I wont go too far into it. But, at the same time, I'm ALL about getting as much info as possible, as you said, BEFORE spening a large amount of cash. So this is right up my alley! Let me see if I can lay out my decision process:


In no particular order:

1) Want to keep it simple. It seems I'm always reading about MH setup and maintenance nightmere's on here. People cant connect the bulbs, bulbs breaking, ballasts not wiring correctly. Now, it could be b/c T5s are relativeley new, but I definitely hear a lower % of messy stories with them. But, simplicity is key for me here.

- Counterpoint: it sounds like it will be a pain to constantly move the T5s out of the way, as you mentioned. This is a good point.


2) Shimmer. Yep, I definitely know about the shimmer and have seen it. I know its a nice selling point. However, I've decided that I'd prefer the even, flat look of flourescent over the T5s.

-Counter: Maybe I've never seen a really nice setup to show off the shimmer? Also, like you mentioned, maybe supplementing MHs with T5s gives me the best of both worlds.

3)Maintenance Costs: good point about not buying the bulbs exactly the way I laid out. Very true. Also, I thought that 3 250W MHs would use CONSIDERABLY more power than 8x80W T5s? Ongoing electrical costs are definitely a factor.

4) Heat: I'm sure I'm gonna have heat issues in my tank with the submersed pumps and no chilling system. I really dont want to ever have to purchase a chiller, so this is important. I'm under the belief the 3x250 MHs will produce a considerable amount more heat than the 8x80W T5s.

- Counter: As you mentioned, the MHs are further away from the water surface and easier to blow air. I've seen firsthand the amazing effect blowing air across the surface can lower tank temp.


Then, of course there are all the other arguments about "what you can and can't keep" with T5s versus MHs. As part of my simplicity schema, I'm only planning to keep softies and anything simpler. I'm also not a big fan of the All-Out Reef Look. Now, of course we all know that can change, so the MHs lend to the thought that I would be able to keep most anything. And,again, there are arguments on keeping almost anything with T5s, too. So, I'm not gonna get into this one b/c 1) its too much 2) I dont have any experience keeping corals and 3) its not as important to me as the above 3.

So, with all of that said, I'm still COMPLETELY open to alternatives and could very likely switch my mind to MHs today if there are other factors out there to sway me.

So...what did I miss? What, in the above, do I have wrong?

In the spirit of not having a full blown MH vs T5 mega thread here, I'm open to either one right now and havent spent a dime. So let me hear ya!

Bryan

 

[melev]

One thing RJWilson has stated repeatedly in his new tank thread is that his tank was too tall for T5 penetration. I don't know how tall his tank is now, nor how tall yours is.

MHs leave flexibility in your hands, as there are a number of colors (Kelvin ratings) to select from.

<b>T-5</b> 8x80=640w. <b>MH</b>3x250=750w plus actinic supplementation which is more like <b>VHO</b> 320w extra (two 6' actinic bulbs and another ballast). You'd end up with 1070w of PURE POWER shining down on your tank. Anything you or your wife desires would be purchase-worthy, and you'd never have to say "Aw.. we can't have that unfortunately because our lights aren't good enough." :lol:

Btw, 640w of light vs 1070w of light is huge. I know it is believed that HO bulbs put out more par and are comparable, but when talking with Dr Sanjay Joshi about this, my impression of his reply was wattage comparisons are nothing to ignore. Many people post that DE bulbs have more par than SE bulbs. I asked him which was more powerful, a 250w DE or a 250w SE, and he just grinned and shook his head and made me feel like I just asked which was heavier: a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks. I know others will debate this heavily, but I like to keep it simple. Let's compare apples to apples.

I know, I'm really supporting MH more. Sorry about that. Convenience is the top issue in my book, and being able to access the tank without lights in my way is the number one function of my day. I have my hand in there daily, if if it is just to move a coral back into position. If it is a hassle, you'll put it off and that item may end up dying because you'll not want to take that extra minute to deal with it.

I totally understand about saving money. My system doesn't use a chiller, and I have a $140 window unit in the wall to keep the room cool. Right now, I'm playing the very delicate game of opening the garage door just enough to cool the room without chilling the tank at night. During the day time, I'm opening doors and windows to keep the tank cool enough without having to run the A/C. I can only pull this off for about 6 weeks a year easily, and the rest of the time it is tricky. Maybe I should buy a remote thermometer and put the read-out near my computer so I can keep an eye on those numbers more readily.

The window unit is small, but pulls 8 amps. But it didn't cost me $800 like a chiller would, and the whole room is comfortable and not just the water.

I have no idea if this helped or made things tougher to decide.

 

[tgunn]

Bryan,
Couple things:
1) Don't worry, sand won't go bad. It'll work just fine.
2) I have to agree with Marc about the accessibility issue with T5s. My light endcaps are mounted directly to my canopy. This means I have to remove the bulbs completely to access the tank fully. This is a huge pain the neck. I've almost bust a bulb a few times juggling them around.

That said I don't think it has to be a showstopper issue. It just means that if at all possible you should try to mount your lights to some kind of frame that is easily moved.

For example, use a frame that is suspended from the top of your canopy with plastic "chain". It would just be a matter of raising the lighting frame up for easy access (unhook and shorten chain). This is something I didn't consider when I did my lights and I regret it already.

3) Again with the whole MH versus T5 appearance, I think you've really got to see a MH lit tank to judge the appearance. Glitter lines aside, the light just looks different. It's got a certain quality and intensity to it that makes it look like you're looking in the ocean on a bright clear sunny day.

My T5s are awesome but they don't have this same "punch" to them. Now, you're going to be using 8 T5s so the intensity will definitely be much higher than mine. Just something I noticed though.. Again, not trying to sell you off the T5s, just think you should see a halide tank at some point to see what it's all about

Tyler

 

[melev]

Bryan, fly down here and see my tank. Or go visit a few tanks from the Boston Reefers Society - you can't be that far away as all those states are crunched together, right? :lol: