3 Gigs, 2 Mags and a Mertensii walk into a tank...

ReefDoberman

New member
Well I placed a big order from ibluewater that will arrive either Friday or Saturday depending on final ship date. I am both excited an anxious about the order since these guys are so delicate when shipped and I've never ordered from this vendor before.

I've been keeping aquariums and anemones for a very long time. Before moving a few months ago I had a beautiful Haddoni display (2 greens, a blue and a purple) that had been running for over 5 years. I had to sell everything off when we moved and decided I would go with a gig/mag dominated display when I got back up and running again. I've kept gigs before but at most I had two at once and never have I order 6 anemones at a single time. Needless to say, I have a large quantity of cipro on hand as well as 6 dedicated qt tanks just in case.

I was curious how many of you have had an experience where you didn't have to put a new mag or gig through cipro? Seems like after a few days, most end up there even if the condition was good on arrival...

I will post pictures and details when everything arrives. Stay tuned.
 
I was really expecting a better punchline!
Sounds like you know what's up and have a handle on things.
I've only been paying attention to mags on here lately, so my comment or guess on them needing treatment, I'd say 80-90% from what I see on here end up needing it, that would be my best educated guess.
 
I think Ibluewater treats and QT's so the only stress would be shipping from them to you. Which is better than stress from multiple trips and multiple aclimations. But I'd QT and keep an eye on them before making the call of adding to a display tank.
 
I think it is a smart move to qt them all for several days just as a precaution; one "sick" one could infect your otherwise healthy ones. Shipping is hard on the gigs. I have no experience with Mags personally but from what i have read it's the same story.

Keep us up to speed :) i have been thinking about trying out ibluewater if some of my LFS can't find what i am looking for
 
All of the nems need to be QTed upon arrival. I would QT all of them for at least 3 weeks, all in separate tanks. It's going to be a huge endeavor but it sounds like you're up to the task and have the experience and knowledge to be successful. If you haven't purchased ammonia alert tags, my suggestion is to use them on each tank, and change the water when needed. Please share photos of your QT system as it sounds like it's a big one!

The last time I was in contact with Bob, he mentioned that he treated nems with nitrofurazone. I don't know if he's switched to Cipro.

The problem with treating with Cipro and then shipping and QTing and possibly treating again with Cipro is that it may not work the second time if the infection was not completely eradicated the first time. As a second course of action, many people use Septra. Unfortunately, my track record treating with Septra is 0%.

I now treat all of the nems I purchase with Cipro. All of them. I've found that it doesn't harm the nems if they're healthy. Anecdotally speaking, it appears to help them flush out any contaminants as I see them expelling dead zoox even when otherwise healthy.

Definitely post photos of the nems when they arrive. Many people who are searching for nems--especially magnifica, gigantea, and mertensii--ask about iBlueWater. I've heard quite a few stories, both positive and negative, but one thing that's consistent is that Bob has access the the nems, though sometimes the wait is long.

I wish you the best of luck. As previously mentioned, it's going to be a time consuming process, but your dedication will pay off!
 
Why would you add so many at once? Are you treating in a large tank and want to get it over with all at once?

I would not treat in a large tank. It's a recipe for disaster. I've tried to treat just two at once and it appeared that they were transmitting the infection back and forth, and both ended up dying.
 
I was really expecting a better punchline!
Sounds like you know what's up and have a handle on things.
I've only been paying attention to mags on here lately, so my comment or guess on them needing treatment, I'd say 80-90% from what I see on here end up needing it, that would be my best educated guess.

The hope is that there is no punch line at the end of this!
 
I think Ibluewater treats and QT's so the only stress would be shipping from them to you. Which is better than stress from multiple trips and multiple aclimations. But I'd QT and keep an eye on them before making the call of adding to a display tank.

Bob said he QT's for at least 28 days.

I think it is a smart move to qt them all for several days just as a precaution; one "sick" one could infect your otherwise healthy ones. Shipping is hard on the gigs. I have no experience with Mags personally but from what i have read it's the same story.

Keep us up to speed :) i have been thinking about trying out ibluewater if some of my LFS can't find what i am looking for

This is part of the reason why I am ordering them at once.

Why would you add so many at once? Are you treating in a large tank and want to get it over with all at once?

It is a calculated decision. ibluewater has all 6 of them in QT together under the same conditions and in the same tank. The will ship together under the same conditions and will be QT'd on my side under the same conditions. I am trying to minimize the risk of future one-off issues as well as the risk of a new inhabitant introducing something that would cause a tankwide issue.

All of the nems need to be QTed upon arrival. I would QT all of them for at least 3 weeks, all in separate tanks. It's going to be a huge endeavor but it sounds like you're up to the task and have the experience and knowledge to be successful. If you haven't purchased ammonia alert tags, my suggestion is to use them on each tank, and change the water when needed. Please share photos of your QT system as it sounds like it's a big one!

The last time I was in contact with Bob, he mentioned that he treated nems with nitrofurazone. I don't know if he's switched to Cipro.

The problem with treating with Cipro and then shipping and QTing and possibly treating again with Cipro is that it may not work the second time if the infection was not completely eradicated the first time. As a second course of action, many people use Septra. Unfortunately, my track record treating with Septra is 0%.

I now treat all of the nems I purchase with Cipro. All of them. I've found that it doesn't harm the nems if they're healthy. Anecdotally speaking, it appears to help them flush out any contaminants as I see them expelling dead zoox even when otherwise healthy.

Definitely post photos of the nems when they arrive. Many people who are searching for nems--especially magnifica, gigantea, and mertensii--ask about iBlueWater. I've heard quite a few stories, both positive and negative, but one thing that's consistent is that Bob has access the the nems, though sometimes the wait is long.

I wish you the best of luck. As previously mentioned, it's going to be a time consuming process, but your dedication will pay off!

I would not treat in a large tank. It's a recipe for disaster. I've tried to treat just two at once and it appeared that they were transmitting the infection back and forth, and both ended up dying.

Bob still uses nitrofurazone and actually recommends it over Cipro. I have a few options for isolation and/or QT upon arrival and haven't settled on a decision yet. Bob actually recommended that I introduce them right to the system and treat the whole take with nitrofurazone if needed. I've given it thought and do not feel comfortable with this approach but I'd love to hear if anyone else has done this successfully. He is including enough nitrofurazone with my order to treat the system for 10 days if needed.

My setup is big. I have two 150gpd RO units with a 275 gallon IBC tote filled with mixed saltwater ready to go if needed for daily water changes. Additionally, I have a stable 400 gallon holding system (lots of liverock, deep sand bed refugium etc...) that is available to house and monitor the anemones on arrival.
 
Keep us posted regardless. Because I've been thinking of ordering myself a birthday present from Bob and would love to see how your order comes through.
 
It's certainly been an interesting and informative read already, I was not familiar w/ ibluewater's standard treatment, and D-nak makes a good point on the pro's and cons of that.
Sounds like you have a serious system and good knowledge backing you on this, please keep posting and preferably w/ pics
 
Additionally, I have a stable 400 gallon holding system (lots of liverock, deep sand bed refugium etc...) that is available to house and monitor the anemones on arrival.

The problem with going the route is that you risk infecting the entire system. We still don't know what causes the infection, how it's transmitted, and how long it can remain in the water column. We have seen sick nems -- particularly Stichodactyla -- transmit the infection to healthy nems. This is why they should be isolated during the QT process as it eliminates cross-contamination.

In re-reading the thread, it sounds like you're putting your trust in Bob that he successfully treated the nems and believe that he has been holding all of them together for at least 28 days. If that is the case, then you should feel confident in adding them to the DT all at once, but it's good to hear that you have precautions in place.

I have reservations when it comes to nitrofurazone. I've used it in the past but was unsuccessful at saving a gigantea. On the other hand, I have successfully treated several gigs and mags with Cipro (mags respond very well to treatment), so this is where my bias stems. I'm assuming Bob's experience to the opposite, which is why he's still using nitrofurazone.

Fortunately, if the nems you receive do show signs of infection, you can begin using Cipro and not worry that the bacteria has developed a resistance to it.
 
The problem with going the route is that you risk infecting the entire system. We still don't know what causes the infection, how it's transmitted, and how long it can remain in the water column. We have seen sick nems -- particularly Stichodactyla -- transmit the infection to healthy nems. This is why they should be isolated during the QT process as it eliminates cross-contamination.

In re-reading the thread, it sounds like you're putting your trust in Bob that he successfully treated the nems and believe that he has been holding all of them together for at least 28 days. If that is the case, then you should feel confident in adding them to the DT all at once, but it's good to hear that you have precautions in place.

I have reservations when it comes to nitrofurazone. I've used it in the past but was unsuccessful at saving a gigantea. On the other hand, I have successfully treated several gigs and mags with Cipro (mags respond very well to treatment), so this is where my bias stems. I'm assuming Bob's experience to the opposite, which is why he's still using nitrofurazone.

Fortunately, if the nems you receive do show signs of infection, you can begin using Cipro and not worry that the bacteria has developed a resistance to it.

I agree with your first point wholeheartedly. One of my primary concerns with this process is an infected anemone spreading something to a healthy one. That said, where I am hedging my bet is that because these anemones were housed together and went though the same conditions, that it will be more likely (not guaranteed) that if things go smooth, none will have an issue OR if one has an issue, they all will develop it... I understand where the flaws are in this logic but I believe based on the chain of command and history, that it has the chance of being more true than it would have been otherwise.

I believe that a lot of the challenges we deal with in this hobby are directly driven from the prolonged stress of transport and movement. Think about a typical process...From our oceans to the island holding facilities into bags then into boxes then onto planes, then transferred to another plane, then to a truck then to a wholesaler then into wholesaler water, wholesaler bags, wholesaler boxes, onto a plane, onto a truck, into a store system, into a store bag, into my car then to my house; sometimes within a 48 hour period without recovery time at any stage. When they are placed into a "final" system (lets face it, most people do not QT), they are extremely stressed and often surrounded by inhabitants from other parts of the world that they never would have encountered in the wild.

The 400 gallon system is not a display. It is literally a holding system that I use to bring in fish and and hold them to monitor for disease or try to get them eating in captivity. I am trying to decide if my success in this approach with fish would or could project to these anemones. Basically when we get these creatures after dealing with the transit process, they are stressed and weak. Introducing them into a traditional QT is stressful in itself and can be tough to manage with swinging parameters or tight spaces. Years ago, I was having issues bringing in fish and holding them in individual tanks as I would find that they would develop issues. I decided to build a big stable environment where they could comfortably adapt to my water and lighting without being bothered by other tankmates that were already established and comfortable. Since doing this, I have not had a single issue or loss of fish. My approach to prevention of disease outbreak with fish on this system is a 240w UV that I tune based on demand (slow down the water, kill more bad stuff vs. speed up the water kill less bad stuff). Like everything else in this hobby, people have their opinions on UV units. Mine is that if properly sized and installed, they will save you a ton of headaches around disease outbreak. I have no reference point on disease transfer in the water column for anemones but I will tell you that I've "rescued" sick fish from my LFS and dropped them right into this system only to watch them fully recover without impact to other fish or the next fish that would be introduced. Because of my previous success with the system, it is one option I am considering.

The next option is a dedicated 155 gallon set up that is basically a mini version of what I described above. The difference being that if there are issues with multiple anemones and I want to try to use Bob's recommendation for Nitrofurazone in the system, I can treat all the anemones together without worrying about impact of the medication on my display system or the holding system. I am wondering if using this setup (turning off the UV) with a preventative nitroFZ treatment would make sense...

Option 3 is dedicated individual QT tanks with 50% daily water changes.

No matter the final approach, I have 6 20H aquariums ready to go with Cipro if things really go south.

There are positives and negatives to the different options. At this point I am leaning towards option 2.
 
Quick update, it is good and bad.... The good, there will be anemones arriving tomorrow. The bad, the blue and purple gig will not be in the box... I got a call late last night from Bob that both the blue and the purple had deflated in the last two days. He said overall, they still look great but he would rather not risk shipping if there is potential for an issue. He went on to offer to hold them for another week to monitor them, then if everything is good, he will ship them to me next weekend on his dime.

This was greatly appreciated as most vendors probably would have just boxed up the gigs and sent them out. Through this whole process, Bob has shown great consideration for my satisfaction as a customer along with the wellbeing of the anemones.... To make up for it further, he added a thing or two to the box. To me, there is always a risk for issues no matter who you deal with. The difference between a quality vendor and a subpar vendor is how they handle these types of situations.

Looking forward to the Green Gig, Mags and Mertensii on Saturday!
 
So the nems were QT for 28 days before selling and when its ready to be shipped they suddenly dont look good?

I highly, extremely doubt any vendor QT their nems for 28 days before they sell. this doesnt make business sense. i have read somewhere that some vendors claim to have everything avail but dont actually have them in stock, but they have access to distributors that can ship them the item. i tend to NOT believe all these BS claim that vendor take great care of their animals before shipping to customers. I am not saying Bob is one of them. i am saying i dont buy into these claims, anything the vendor say i take it for a grain of salt.

Good luck with your Green Gig, Mags and Mertensii .
 
So the nems were QT for 28 days before selling and when its ready to be shipped they suddenly dont look good?

I highly, extremely doubt any vendor QT their nems for 28 days before they sell. this doesnt make business sense. i have read somewhere that some vendors claim to have everything avail but dont actually have them in stock, but they have access to distributors that can ship them the item. i tend to NOT believe all these BS claim that vendor take great care of their animals before shipping to customers. I am not saying Bob is one of them. i am saying i dont buy into these claims, anything the vendor say i take it for a grain of salt.

Good luck with your Green Gig, Mags and Mertensii .


I hear you. The most important thing to me is that he could have shipped but cared enough to call and give me options. All of which had a concession to help make up for the issue and keep me happy. I know from experience that most vendors would have put those gigs in a box and made it my problem.
 
Quick update, it is good and bad.... The good, there will be anemones arriving tomorrow. The bad, the blue and purple gig will not be in the box... I got a call late last night from Bob that both the blue and the purple had deflated in the last two days. He said overall, they still look great but he would rather not risk shipping if there is potential for an issue. He went on to offer to hold them for another week to monitor them, then if everything is good, he will ship them to me next weekend on his dime.

This was greatly appreciated as most vendors probably would have just boxed up the gigs and sent them out. Through this whole process, Bob has shown great consideration for my satisfaction as a customer along with the wellbeing of the anemones.... To make up for it further, he added a thing or two to the box. To me, there is always a risk for issues no matter who you deal with. The difference between a quality vendor and a subpar vendor is how they handle these types of situations.

Looking forward to the Green Gig, Mags and Mertensii on Saturday!

Since you brought this up, I now feel that I can be more forthright. This is exactly the problem I have with Bob and why I can't recommend iBluewater to those looking for nems. On the surface, Bob appears to be the honest vendor who won't ship a sick nem out for fear of something bad happening to it. Frankly, it doesn't make sense. Nems that are QTed for 4 weeks should no longer deflate, especially when an antibiotic such as nitrofurazone is used -- unless it's simply not effective (which is in line with my experience using it). Those of us who have gigs can tell you that once healthy, they rarely deflate. And it's usually because of an event occurring -- such as the nem eating a snail or by adding something to the tank like a large amount of amino acids. So, what can we assess from the two nems that went down? Unfortunately, it's that they weren't properly QTed.

Your story is consistent with what others have told me -- not all is what it seems at iBluewater. Bob is a good businessman who is knowledgeable. He'll happily tell you that he has nems available and that they are in QT, he'll take your money, yet when it comes time to ship, something mysteriously happens where he can't ship them out. And then you wait. And wait. And wait. Part of the waiting is Bob trying to locate the nem that you want. And part is him QTing it. So he says. Then you wait. And wait. Until finally he ships a nem that ends up dying because it wasn't properly QTed. Or you ask for your money back and he finally gives in.

Here's the big problem: Bob told you that he QTed all of the nems in the same system for 28 days. Yet two go down in the 29th day (for the sake of the argument). He makes it clear that two gigs are still not healthy enough to ship. Could it be a fluke that both go down at once? Possibly. But in my experience this is highly unlikely. This points to two nems that are still infected. After 28 days with treatment, the nems will either be well on their way to recovery, or dead. What this also means is that the nems he shipped to you could also still be infected and aren't showing signs -- yet.. So you just paid a huge premium with the promise of a long QT from the vendor who just sent you nems that could still be sick.

This is also why I don't recommend QTing nems in the same system. Since they're not isolated from one another, there's no way to guarantee that each individual nem is free of the infection.

I hate to sound like the cynic. And I hate to sound harsh. But I just want to make it clear to others what they're getting into when dealing with iBluewater. I honestly think you have a shot a saving the nems that you receive. It's not due to Bob's actions, but your actions and what I think you're capable of doing based on the protocols you have in place and plan of execution. I just get really frustrated when I hear the same story time and time again.

Best of luck and definitely keep us updated.

So the nems were QT for 28 days before selling and when its ready to be shipped they suddenly dont look good?

I highly, extremely doubt any vendor QT their nems for 28 days before they sell. this doesnt make business sense. i have read somewhere that some vendors claim to have everything avail but dont actually have them in stock, but they have access to distributors that can ship them the item. i tend to NOT believe all these BS claim that vendor take great care of their animals before shipping to customers. I am not saying Bob is one of them. i am saying i dont buy into these claims, anything the vendor say i take it for a grain of salt.

Good luck with your Green Gig, Mags and Mertensii .

THIS. But in the case of iBluewater, the HIGH premium paid (look at the prices on the site) comes with the assumption that Bob does indeed QT as he says he does. But when a nem goes down in the final hours prior to shipping, one can't help to think that it's just a bunch of crap.
 
I know from experience that most vendors would have put those gigs in a box and made it my problem.

That's exactly what Bob just did with your other nems that he sent to you. You're back at square one. You're going to receive nems that were in the same system as two sick gigs. So you may still have to treat them. :facepalm:
 
I've talked to people who shop at same whosaler as Bob in Los Angeles. Apparently he takes pics of nems at whosaler and then posts them on his website without actually buying them...at least he used to. I don't buy into his treatment regiment. Does an online retailer have any incentive for an unpredictable and tedious treatment of an anemone that is demanding in nature? I seriously doubt that his business goodwill hinges on selling healthy anemones that even the most advanced aquarists struggle to keep at times. Disclaim and sell seems to be the standard practice with most retailers and definitely brick and mortar stores.
 
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