300 Sump - Possible Refugium - thoughts and ideas

[Ted_C]

Hey All.

I'm working on planning out this 300 build. I've gotten some of the plumbing done and had an idea with this build.

After the troubles I encountered in the 150 with what i think was dinoflaggellates and a lack of biodiversity - I'm thinking of a way I could promote better bio-diversity in this 300 build.

1st: what I'm looking to promote is a refugium - a place to grow macro algae (maybe even mangroves), promote pod reproduction and enhance the fauna that is in the overall system. I'm torn between a 4" sandbed with critters in there like shimek recommends or 1 to 2" of sand just as a haven for some fauna).

2nd: What I want to avoid: Putting this into the fast flow of the sump. The fast flow of a sump that I'm going to have is way too much for a refugium. I dont know my flow rates yet - but I am running 2 x DC 11000 to turnover the sump. Another thing to avoid: light spillage into the sump (I dont want any type of algae being grown in the sump).

Here's the area I have to work with so far:

What I'm thinking of is building a tank and putting it above the sump. I will feed this from the open channel standpipe of the beananimal I am planning (T'd with valves to divert some of the water to the refugium). I will drain the refugium with a 1.5" standpipe with a strainer on top to prevent the bigger guys that live down there getting into the main tank returns. That drain pipe will be back near the returns to the display (in case pods want to go for a ride into the main display). According to my thoughts, I figure I need around 5 inches of free space between the refugium tank and the top of the sump for maintenance and just being able to get in there in case of needing to do something.

My total overall height from top of the sump to the roof is 23 1/2".

So take off 5" between the sump top and the roof - I'm at 18 1/2" Take off another two inches to account for the stand that will hold the refugium in place (planning on 1 1/2" framed support (1x2) with 1/2" plywood) - and I'm at 16 1/2" to the roof. Take off another 5" between the roof and the top of the refugium and I'm at 11 1/2" High. Let's round it down to 10".

To keep light spillage to a minimum, three sides will be black acrylic and one side will be clear acrylic for inspection (facing forward). Also, one of the black sides will be 16 1/2" to block any light spillage into the sump.

My total footprint is probably around 24"x26"x10. That's between 20-26 gallons depending on how high the water's running in the refugium. Length wise: That'll place the refugium maybe 5" beyond the left hand side of the sump and pretty much smack dab in the middle of the sump. Width wise - it'll completely cover the sump.

I haven't seen anyone else try anything like this before. I can't find any images of something like this. I guess the closest idea would be something like a surge tank - where one tank flushes into another.

20-26 gallons of water and sand supported by 1x2"s?

I'm running 1.5" pipes for my beananimal. That means I have the ability to move a large amount of water through the full siphon (All of the full siphon has to go through the sump - can't be tee'd). This may mean the open channel could have zero water in it - which would kill my idea.

Any ideas you have would be welcomed. Feel free to discourage me too

 

[rogergolf66]

Why not add a manifold valve to the fuge so u can control how much goes into the fuge. Take it from me I don't like that one side of my drain goes into my fuge.

 

[Tom39]

I am looking at your plumbing entering your sump and it looks like you are plumbing your drains straight into your filter socks. If I see it correctly, why would you not have it directed straight down to the overflow compartment instead of the socks?

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[Ted_C]

I am looking at your plumbing entering your sump and it looks like you are plumbing your drains straight into your filter socks. If I see it correctly, why would you not have it directed straight down to the overflow compartment instead of the socks?

I dont think that overflow compartment is going to work like I thought it would. The water was supposed to drain into the sealed overflow compartment then spill over in the socks.

What I think will happen is that area will collect detritus (and it's hard to get to to siphon out). Also, I think the water wont flow into the socks 100% - but instead sneak past the socks (either between the sock and the acrylic, it'll lift the sock, or just blow right on over the sock).

I'm thinking of actually buying a new sump that has the sock holders on a slider so I can move it directly under the bulkheads.

Why not add a manifold valve to the fuge so u can control how much goes into the fuge.

Indeed (but I think your thinking of a manifold on the return pump to feed the fuge). after searching - I finally found some threads that said your overflows should all go to the same compartment. Two reasons for this: one is someone thought the level of the water needed to be consistent and overflows in different sections caused this to be a problem. Second reason is - the overflow open channel wont feed enough flow to the fuge to keep it happy.

I dug around my plumbing and found adapters and such so that I can tee off one of the 1 1/2" main returns into a 1/2" john guest fitting with a valve. That should be plenty to feed 20 gallons of Fuge.

 

[TalloneJosh]

If you lengthen the pvc so that it is further down into the first chamber, there is usually enough flow so that the detritus will not settle and instead get pushed back up and over into the socks.

 

[robthorn]

Good luck with the fuge decision. Seems too tight for my fat head to work on but I have seen others in less space.

As for a new sump if you go that route you should be able to easily fit a fuge into the new design. The bubble trap here is messing you up from mod'ing this one. With a new sump you could move the socks all the way back and drop the pipes under water to kill a ton of noise and use unions to undo the pipes for changing socks and save a bunch of slide room. Seems the best way to go for me. You have to pay for a new fuge anyway. If you don't have an acrylic builder in mind already Laser Mike will do it for you. Let me know if you need his contact info. It will be heavy duty construction and as ugly or pretty as you want according to what you want to pay.

 

[Ted_C]

As for a new sump if you go that route you should be able to easily fit a fuge into the new design.

I'm turning out to be a fairly decent acrylic builder myself I built the black trough under the sump myself with a circular saw. The corners are off - maybe by as much as 1/8" - But I figure if I had a table saw - I'd be able to solve those problems of uneven cuts.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

If you lengthen the pvc so that it is further down into the first chamber, there is usually enough flow so that the detritus will not settle

I realize that - thanks for the suggestion. However - the water in this section is going to be coming out of there horizontally into the filter sock section. I dont think I have enough vertical downward pressure to hold the socks down - hence the socks will float and dirty water with detritus will get into the sump. What I would like to do is eliminate the first section completely and put the filter socks on a rail system so I could slide them in and out (for removal) and use the threaded bulkheads with pvc adapaters to screw pipe in and out of it.

the below is almost a perfect design. My only thoughts are I'd like it to be non-drilled for bulkheads and I'd like it to be 24" wide instead of 21" and it shouldn't have a three baffle bubble trap design. Only two is needed so the sump can be drained down.

Its got the safety factor I like (if the socks were to clog - it'll overflow back into the sump). It's got the blacked out refugium so light doesn't escape into the sump.

 

[robthorn]

With that design do you worry about velocity through the trap? Making noise and possibly new bubbles from water jumping off the last trap wall? Not sure exactly how much flow will be going through there because I haven't looked up those pumps but would 5000ish gph sound close? Just thought, I have never had a skinny sump or bubble trap.

 

[Tom39]

I don't believe that you will have an issue with detritus buildup. Here is my current sump with the same overflow chamber. The constant water movement won't allow settlement.

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[bigzman]

Sump

Sump

I'm turning out to be a fairly decent acrylic builder myself I built the black trough under the sump myself with a circular saw. The corners are off - maybe by as much as 1/8" - But I figure if I had a table saw - I'd be able to solve those problems of uneven cuts.

Thanks for the suggestion though.



I realize that - thanks for the suggestion. However - the water in this section is going to be coming out of there horizontally into the filter sock section. I dont think I have enough vertical downward pressure to hold the socks down - hence the socks will float and dirty water with detritus will get into the sump. What I would like to do is eliminate the first section completely and put the filter socks on a rail system so I could slide them in and out (for removal) and use the threaded bulkheads with pvc adapaters to screw pipe in and out of it.

the below is almost a perfect design. My only thoughts are I'd like it to be non-drilled for bulkheads and I'd like it to be 24" wide instead of 21" and it shouldn't have a three baffle bubble trap design. Only two is needed so the sump can be drained down.

Its got the safety factor I like (if the socks were to clog - it'll overflow back into the sump). It's got the blacked out refugium so light doesn't escape into the sump.

Ted,

I have a similar design sump and refuge

Sump/Refuge:
60lx30wx18h

I like the refuge option being on the back. Multi chambers for biological.

 

[Ted_C]

I don't believe that you will have an issue with detritus buildup. Here is my current sump with the same overflow chamber

Do you have that sump running yet Tom? There's the second question I have about that design - your dealing with water coming out of that first overflow chamber horizontally and there's the question whether you have enough downward force to hold the filter socks securely down. Are you letting any water through that isn't running through your socks?

I have a similar design sump and refuge

Thanks Bigzman - indeed you do. You also have that first chamber like Tom and I. Do you have it running yet? If so, the same question applies: are the filter socks held securely and no water can slip past?

With that design do you worry about velocity through the trap?

Nope Rob: the water flows smoothly through the traps - no gurgle or new bubbles. if your running to the point where you have a water fall there - you need to back off on the flow

 

[bigzman]

Ted,

My filter sockets are held in place by a recessed grove that match my socks. Much like Toms. I have not run water yet and will be doing soon maybe today and tomorrow. From what I can see I think it will hold in place. I trying to push over 3500 GPH trough it so I hope it does hold in place. Only downside so far is that its freaking large to the point I am even considering selling it and going smaller.

 

[robthorn]

Z, are you insane? Smaller is never better. ;-)

 

[bigzman]

Rob, after plumbing I realized it's hard to work around this sump. Smaller would allow other cool stuff under stand. I love stand but this sump is for a larger configuration. Originally the owner that sold it to me was going to run 2 330 gallon tanks.

 

[Ted_C]

Bigzman - thanks! Let us know what happens.

I'd trade sumps with you - but I'm pretty set on the 48" long. The way my stand is set up (into thirds x 8 foot long) - I can just barely fit the 48" long sump with external DC 11000's and required plumbing into 2/3rds of the below tank area. The last third is reserved for electrical + future plans for a calcium reactor.

 

[bigzman]

Ted,

I am pretty sure that at 60x30 my sump would not work for you.

 

[Ted_C]

indeed - I just measured and I only have 29" of interior width to work with (max) - the trough takes this down to 27"

 

[Ted_C]

Also, I think the water wont flow into the socks 100% - but instead sneak past the socks (either between the sock and the acrylic, it'll lift the sock, or just blow right on over the sock).

The reason I thought this would happen: one of the socks didn't sit well into the hole. The other hole was just fine after I removed the plumbing.

Took a dremel to it today and sanded it down and re-polished it. Fits a sock like a glove. I don't think there will be an issue going forward.

I think I'm buying a table saw next month - so I'll build out the refugium after I get it all set up.

 

[gambitcobra]

with this setup, I have no issues, easy clean up and its simple

 

[anbosu]

Ted, do you have to have the refugium in the stand? You could use a rubbermaid tub or even a brute trash can off to the side if not, and that would easily solve your space and flow issues since it would be a completely separate setup.