Do you know what these stores pay for there softies? Softies like mushrooms, leathers, and zoos are very cheap. So cheap that if I was a store I wouldnt be willing to give hardly any credit for a frag of these. they can buy colonies for what I would want for a frag. Basically if I take in a 3" acropora frag or a frag of capricornis the store is willing to give me 1/3 of what they sell it for. so if they ask $50 for it. I get $16. So if you bring in a Zoo frag that is worth $10 or $15 that doesnt make it worth the trouble to deal with. And definatly not worth the trouble to quarantine. Again this isnt aimed at you cause I dont have a clue the situation. Just trying to maybe explain why it might have happenned. also did you ever confront anyone else at the store and ask why? maybe the laddy you talked to was having a bad day. or at that moment they had more than they needed of the corals you had. Also I must commend you with the blue thumb, it is rare in this hobby! I get frustrated listening to people rant about this hobby somehow being able to supply its own corals without stripping the reefs of theres. usually if you look at there tanks and listen to there sob storries they seem to kill more than they grow. its good to hear you are producing alot of frags.
5th day creations in Chattanooga
- Thread starter hesstondc
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When you add in shipping softies are about the same price as other corals for an LFS to buy. Everything, fish, sps, softies are "cheap" until you factor in shipping, losses and overhead. I trade in frags for half of what they sell for and IMO that's fair since there is no shipping and losses of healthy tank raised corals are virtually nothing. Plus when you only get credit the store is getting markup on top of that when you use that to buy something. The Aquatic Critter and Ebay in Nashville were very happy to take my frags as is the Coral Reef here in Knoxville. Maybe the aquarium doesn't like to take frags because they have a hard time keeping all their other "hard to keep" corals such as SPS alive.....I don't know. They also seem to only stock "tried and true" fish.
On another note the whole save the reefs by fragging thing is more of a marketing ploy than anything IMO. I have almost all tank raised corals because they do better and their coloration is more predictable. If you really want to save the reefs buying aquacultured corals from places like Walt Smith and others that employ native labor and supply much needed jobs is the way to go (I can say my rock was aquacultured and came from them). That way the people near the reefs appreciate the resource more and will work to sustain it. Not destroy it out of necessity to feed their families. There is a huge market for dead corals and food taken from reefs too you know
JMO and FWIW, Chris
On another note the whole save the reefs by fragging thing is more of a marketing ploy than anything IMO. I have almost all tank raised corals because they do better and their coloration is more predictable. If you really want to save the reefs buying aquacultured corals from places like Walt Smith and others that employ native labor and supply much needed jobs is the way to go (I can say my rock was aquacultured and came from them). That way the people near the reefs appreciate the resource more and will work to sustain it. Not destroy it out of necessity to feed their families. There is a huge market for dead corals and food taken from reefs too you know
JMO and FWIW, Chris
aarontwhitehead
New member
I was trying to thin my tank and the amount of credit was never even mentioned or considered, they just rebuked me. Both ladies were at the desk when this occured, so one could have spoken up. They did not even want to know what I had. The Coral Reef here has taken them in on trade for a small portion of their value which is fine by me. I prefer to trade with others if possible, this away it is apples for apples. They are always happy to see me coming with a bucket because what I trade in is not junk. My intentions from the very start was to be a yard sale reefer. I buy only frags and scratch and dent items. I started with 4 purple mushrooms and have around 500 or so now, and that is after years of trading them in. I also only had 4 fuzzy mushrooms and that number remains around 50 to 100 as they are large and I have to keep them culled out. I bought my Palythoas in Florida and have hundreds even after all of the trading in. I usually trade rocks with 15 to 30 mushrooms on them or 5 to 15 paly's which are not exactly frags. They are show items compared to some that I have seen in the stores. Don't get me wrong as far as the Blue Thumb goes, I have lost a few corals like an huge mass of very old pumping zenia that died in a matter of days. I also lost a hammer coral that I bought as a barely surviving coral. It did regenerate for awhile but never fully recovered. These losses were years ago when I was really green at the hobby, and this was prior to Live sand, refugiums, and algae scrubbers. Most of the freshwater fish that we keep are farm raised, so I disagree about the marketing ploy idea. I realize that the corals reproduce quickly but some of them grow slowly and should ideally be tank raised (closed brains) rather than taken from the reef if possible. I am sickened by the sale of coral skeletons, and snail shells as ornaments. I do not intend to save the reefs but rather save the creatures in my care and hopefully pass their offspring on to others. In the blizzard of 93 we were without power for nearly a week. I had no generator but managed to not lose ANYTHING due to around the clock dipping of water for gas exchange, and kerosene heaters for warmth. A doctor that I work with lost over $3000 in fish and corals because he was in my opinion an irresponsible reef keeper. He did not try to keep his animals alive because he "didn't think about it". He also had his tank overstocked with fish which makes it harder to manage. His tank was more of a museum tank with expensive specimens placed in the most aesthetic locations and replaced when they died. I much prefer the garden reef with corals flourishing, and fish as gardeners and workers to keep it going. It doesn't hurt that the fish are pretty too. (GRIN) I look forward to trying SPS but worry about the fact that I have Sarcophyton in my tank. I am just waiting for some frags to get started. Thanks for all of your opinions. It is refreshing to be able to correspond with locals that don't have something to sell me.
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FWIW I mainly keep SPS so our views will be a little different by convention and experience. I wish I could just be happy with a few easier to keep corals over the long haul....my wife probably wishes that too
Softies are usually much easier to find a market for though. Have you thought about going to the frag swap in Nashville on the 19th of January? I bet you could make some bulb money there.
IMO the people that run the aquarium are just a a little "wierd and paranoid" from the dealings I and others have had with them. I asked about bringing in frags and they told me they would have to put them in their tanks and then tell me what they would give me for them if they would even take them
That's just ridiculous IMO. I'll just sell/trade online and take stuff to Coral Reef and that is just their loss
I'm not going to bag stuff up just to bring it home.
Chris
Oh yeah....Florida got beat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:dance:
Softies are usually much easier to find a market for though. Have you thought about going to the frag swap in Nashville on the 19th of January? I bet you could make some bulb money there.
IMO the people that run the aquarium are just a a little "wierd and paranoid" from the dealings I and others have had with them. I asked about bringing in frags and they told me they would have to put them in their tanks and then tell me what they would give me for them if they would even take them
That's just ridiculous IMO. I'll just sell/trade online and take stuff to Coral Reef and that is just their loss
I'm not going to bag stuff up just to bring it home.
Chris
Oh yeah....Florida got beat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:dance:Ive got an idea! Everyone should get all there frags together and plan a group trip to chattanooga, Im sure 5th day creations would work out a deal with you?
As a matter a fact, where were your frags at the chattanooga frag swap?
Aarontwhitehead: If your ever in the chattanooga area or heading this way, send me a PM Ive got several varieties of acropora and capricornis, I can give you some frags to try. These are all corals that Ive started with 1" frags of 4 years ago and have grown out to large colonies. So it is hardy stuff, If your just starting with acros, these are more forgiving than wild peices by far. maybe a good way to get your hands wet and try out that Blue thumb. without stressing over the normal investment side of it.
As a matter a fact, where were your frags at the chattanooga frag swap?
Aarontwhitehead: If your ever in the chattanooga area or heading this way, send me a PM Ive got several varieties of acropora and capricornis, I can give you some frags to try. These are all corals that Ive started with 1" frags of 4 years ago and have grown out to large colonies. So it is hardy stuff, If your just starting with acros, these are more forgiving than wild peices by far. maybe a good way to get your hands wet and try out that Blue thumb. without stressing over the normal investment side of it.
aarontwhitehead
New member
I came from the era when SPS were not surviving in reef tanks so I pretty much avoided them. I tend to focus on the easier to keep corals. I have maintained the garden reef by just letting my corals grow and pruning/trading in as needed. I recently upgraded a couple of smaller tanks in to my current set up and I am having great success so far with it. I agree with the "wierd and paranoid" impression, but they do have a good selection of supplies. I would love to go to the swap but will not be available. The last swap with the Chattanooga guys was on my working weekend so I missed out then too. It seems that I just can't win. i posted a thread with pictures on this site, so maybe i will get some traders. Otherwise it will be back to the Coral Reef.
Lint_Licker
In Memoriam
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10871246#post10871246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
I asked about bringing in frags and they told me they would have to put them in their tanks and then tell me what they would give me for them if they would even take them
That's just ridiculous IMO. I'll just sell/trade online and take stuff to Coral Reef and that is just their loss
If they have been in business for several years, Im sure they have burned more then a few times. You can tell them all day long what it is, but if they dont know you or have personally seen your tank, I totally understand why they would be leary about it. Ive been burned by a few people saying they had something and I took their word on it and it wound up being something that didnt even resemble what they said it was. Thats another reason why I dont like zoaid.com, if you go through their pics, you will wonder what the heck people were thinking when they added pics to one group that look nothing like the others. There is even one, I cant remember exactly which one, every pictures was different, and there was like 4 or 5 pictures. So unless you see it for yourself, you dont know what you're buying. So I can see where stores are leary about things ESPECIALLY expensive corals and frags.
Yes but I'm not going to let them put frags of mine in their tanks that I would have to dip/QT all over again if they didn't want them.
Typically what happens when people buy frags or items from a buisness to sell at their buisness is they try a few first. Wanting to actually put things in their system without commiting is just silly
Typically when people see my frags they tell me next time to bring in whatever looks good and to name my price if that gives you an idea of what I typically have looks like and my fairness in pricing. I often hear "you only want that much?".
The Aquarium didn't even give me a chance
And as I said before that is their loss and their choice
Chris
Typically what happens when people buy frags or items from a buisness to sell at their buisness is they try a few first. Wanting to actually put things in their system without commiting is just silly
Typically when people see my frags they tell me next time to bring in whatever looks good and to name my price if that gives you an idea of what I typically have looks like and my fairness in pricing. I often hear "you only want that much?".
The Aquarium didn't even give me a chance
And as I said before that is their loss and their choice
Chris
Lint_Licker
In Memoriam
Thats true. I wonder if they ever thought of just floating the bag. When I temperture acclimate, they always up in the bag. If they dont, then I know to start looking for problems.
from the buissness side of things I wouldnt commit to buying a coral from a local without seeing it. Im not sure if I understand you properly, are you saying that they are in the wrong for wanting to see what you have before they commit to purchasing it? that is like me asking you to buy corals from me without ever seeing them. I would hope that you wouldnt. Ive said this before, i dont know this store at all, but from what ive read I havent seen any reason to get upset with whats been said. Bottom line maybe they arnt comfortable taking corals from locals. maybe there supplier has been reliable and they dont need the extra stuff, or maybe they have been burned by other locals in the past and find it easier to not do buissness with locals. Who knows, but here locally I wouldnt expect any of the local stores to buy something site unseen, or even to commit to buying it after seeing it. Honeslty I think it would be a good idea For each store to setup a system strickly for locally grown corals. When you bring something in you make a list of what you brought and as it sells you get a running credit in the store for whatever percent of the sale is agreed upon, maybe that would be a good thing for everyone
They see it when you take it to them
Once they get to know you stores usually trust a little more.
They can always refuse if they don't want it. I have never taken something to a store and they have refused it.....of course I don't take them crap
Wanting to put it in their tank and look at it for a few days and THEN dictate to you the price is asking a bit much.
Chris
Once they get to know you stores usually trust a little more.
They can always refuse if they don't want it. I have never taken something to a store and they have refused it.....of course I don't take them crap
Wanting to put it in their tank and look at it for a few days and THEN dictate to you the price is asking a bit much.
Chris
aarontwhitehead
New member
My problem is that the other local stores have me spoiled. I tell them that I have some stuff to bring in and what I have. I take it to them, and they float it in the bags. They then tell me how much credit they will give me, and ask if it seems fair. I was taken aback by the attitude of the staff at the Aquarium. The quote ("If we let you trade stuff in then everyone would start doing it") went against everything that I like about this hobby. It is not a cheap hobby but trading stuff in offsets the cost. Otherwise we should just flush it when it gets too big for our tanks????? As far as getting burned by hobbiest. This may be true, but you get items fresh from a tank with very little transit time, they are tank acclimated which means hardier, they pay with store credit which ends up bringing their cost for the item to 25% or less than retail, plus they get to look at it before agreeing to a price. So, is it better to take your chances with the wholesaler whose items are generally from the ocean and have not always been kept in the best of conditions, require payment prior to shipping, charge shipping, and a lot of times arrive DOA? Personally I think aquarists should be encouraged to grow and resale/trade items. I think the only person that loses in this situation is the wholesaler. It was mentioned that aquarists may see their coral doing badly and take it in before it dies. Ok, at waht point do you say hey it is doing badly? Is it when the Sarcophyton starts sloughing tissue (a normal growing tendency), Or when the hard coral is receding, or the soft coral turns to jello? If the aquarium employee is too stupid to know when a hard coral is receding, or the softie is mush then they are in the wrong business. Also what is to stop them from getting your name and number and letting you know if they think you burned them????? The idea of a Local propogation tank sounds great, but would probably not be feasible. What with the "I want it now" attitudes of the American public, and the inconsistency in numbers and variety of trade in corals. Just today I traded in some stuff at The Coral Reef. I got more frags and pieces that were traded in by locals. The trade in credit deal isn't that great though. So I ended up with 2 pieces in the place of 4 larger pieces that I traded in. Anyhow, this is just my 2 cents worth. This is a great thread though. I keep waiting for the local stores to post their opinion but it hasn't come yet. Mayb e they don't read this site.
kypatriot
Premium Member
As for bringing corals that are starting to look bad, I feel like the LFS usually covers me for a few days or more after I buy from them - and I have no problem with that working the other way too. If I bring a frag, and it dies within a couple weeks, then I get no credit, or I replace it.
If I get a fish that doesn't survive the stresses of shipping, I like to know they'll help me out & it makes sense that this would work both ways.
If I get a fish that doesn't survive the stresses of shipping, I like to know they'll help me out & it makes sense that this would work both ways.
aarontwhitehead
New member
I feel that we should all support our LFS with consideration to their ethics and prudence. I try to choose a LFS based on the fact that they usually stock fish that have a reputation for surviving in the home aquarium, maintain their tanks, keep healthy animals, offer incentives to customers through allowing them to trade in items, and have a knowledgable staff. However, I do not buy most of my supplies (salt, bulbs) locally due to the enormous markup.
It is perfectly reasonable for a fish store to not give you credit if your livestock is ill. I would expect no less. Of course I am the type of person that would not trade in a dying piece of coral. Not everyone is like this though, so I can see rationale for them wanting to protect their income. I cannot see them rejecting all trade in livestock simply because "everyone would be doing it". I would like nothing more than to walk into a store and see tank after tank of young home grown frags for purchase.
By the way, Do any of you guys know what happened to the place in Cleveland TN. that used to have a coral and fish farming business that was open to the public?
It is perfectly reasonable for a fish store to not give you credit if your livestock is ill. I would expect no less. Of course I am the type of person that would not trade in a dying piece of coral. Not everyone is like this though, so I can see rationale for them wanting to protect their income. I cannot see them rejecting all trade in livestock simply because "everyone would be doing it". I would like nothing more than to walk into a store and see tank after tank of young home grown frags for purchase.
By the way, Do any of you guys know what happened to the place in Cleveland TN. that used to have a coral and fish farming business that was open to the public?
you must be talking about Aquatic wildlife. it was a research facility that was funded by a Goverment grant. They were preserving the brown staghorn. It shut down probly at least 10 years ago after loosing the grant. I didnt get to visit the facility, but ive heard it was very impressive. they had the latest and greatest equipment at that time, which isnt to impressive nowadays. There is still alot of the old equipment floating around the chattanooga area. it has been bought and sold over and over again for years. I still have abunch of the equipment laying around.
I have a little different perspective on the situation. I am not wanting to sell I am wanting to buy. It seems to me that local stores are shooting their self in the foot so to speak. If the LFS will not give you guys store credit for your frags you will just sell direct to people like myself setting up a new tank. This cuts them out of the process all together! It would be great if I did not have to run all over the place buying frags from individuals. The LFS should have a "local grown tank" and make a reasonable profit for displaying and housing the frags. Keep in mind I said reasonable profit which I have a hard time finding at LFS.
I understand where your coming from man, i really do. But honeslty this isnt a big money buissness they are in. I have been involved in every fish store in this town in some way or another. and ive seen the ins and outs of this buissness. If run carefully it can make profit, but it is not a get rich buissness, and if you dont stay on top of it you can lose your shirt. Also it is hard work, normally it isnt a 9-5 job, it takes alot of overtime to keep the tanks and equipment running. Of all the jobs in the world that are gravey jobs, this isnt one of them. It frustrates me to see people always crittical of prices in the LFS. Im not saying that some dont charge to much, but these people are trying to make a living. I know this doesnt work for everyone. But look at your job, or that friend youve got that makes alot of money to sit and work a couple hours a day. There are alot of things in this world that are insanly overpriced, and the CEOs and owners are sitting back rolling in the money. Im here to tell you, these fish store owners arnt rolling in the money. Again im not saying they are poor, but they arnt living in the $500,000 home and driving the $100,000 car. If you wanna complain about pricing lets start a thread about gas prices! :lol:
I agree it is a hard business to be in. When Aquatic Specialist was in business I spent a lot of money there and talked with Randall often. The problem in the business is the limited customer base. What percentage of Knoxville is looking to purchase a coral, a VERY small percent I am sure. When I was involved with the hobby several years back no one ordered online now it is very common, I am sure that does not help our cost at the LFS either.
aarontwhitehead
New member
I spent a BUNCH of money at Aquatic Specialists. I knew JR, John, and Randall on a first name basis. I still spend money locally but since I do not buy much livestock it is very little compared to my earlier years in the hobby. I agree that the fish business is not a get rich business. The proffit is very slim. I had the opportunity to take over Ken and Macks when the original owner decided to retire. I could not see the math as coming out very favorable so I passed. I did not mean to complain about prices but was rather making a statement. How many guys do you know that buy exclusively form their LFS nowadays?
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