trueblackpercula
New member
well here are a few pictures of what the setup looks like and what the dreaded water looked like.
6 year old DSB in an SPS tank you wont believe your eyes
- Thread starter trueblackpercula
- Start date
I went through something similar at the 6 year mark in my 120. Not really a crash, just everything gradually going to hell. STN from the base with the occasional rtn. Lots most of my across despite aggressive fragging. My sand bed was around 4 inches but deeper in parts. I started down a path like you are now - trying to siphon it but gave up on that and just started removing the sandbed bit by bit. Got to about a 1 inch sanded but that didn't do it. About a year ago I just gave up completely and rebuilt. I've read some about old tank syndrome and I think perhaps that's just what I was faced with.
Here's what I did. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2238444 I suppose I should try to figure out how to move my thread over here where it belongs.
Best of luck. Will be watching and hoping yours turns out better than mine.
Here's what I did. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2238444 I suppose I should try to figure out how to move my thread over here where it belongs.
Best of luck. Will be watching and hoping yours turns out better than mine.
LedZep fan2
Member
Good stuff! You might want to read a few posts made by Reefin' Dude regarding DSB. I currently have a 120 gallon with a DSB that is going on 7 years and has had the same problems of cyano, high nitrates and high phosphates. Coral health declined and everything was looking terrible. Although it may be a controversial topic, sand beds act as phosphate sponges - therefore they need to be attended to more often. Currently I am going through the process of removing my DSB and replacing it with new dry sand. I divided the tank into regions and pull out and immediately replace the old sand with new sand. Hopefully, over the course of a few months all the old sand will be gone and the new sand will be re-seeded.
Definitely a lot of gunk though, happy to hear it's not in your tank anymore!!
Definitely a lot of gunk though, happy to hear it's not in your tank anymore!!
trueblackpercula
New member
Thanks for the words of encouragement Mr. Big I really had no choice and rolled the dice. Its less stressful knowing that you did the samething with your tank..........pictures to follow soon
[/QUOTE]I'm setting up a new tank with 2-3" sand bed
substrate will be tropic eden reef flakes.
I was also planning to use egg crate on bottom to protect glass.
will egg crate prevent me from maintaining the sand bed properly?
is it even a good idea to use egg crate? [/QUOTE]
I don't understand why egg create would be needed.
[/QUOTE]Did you ever consider removing the DSB?[/QUOTE]
Yes as a last resort because it requires a complete tank break down
[/QUOTE]What size are the sand bed particles it looks more like crushed coral than sand to me in the video. I switched to sugar fine sand many years ago because of how much stuff gets in larger grain sand.[/QUOTE]
i really don't remember the size but this is what I used Nature's Ocean Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Reef Sand.
[/QUOTE] My question is, is it possible to vacuum the sand without removing it?
[/QUOTE]Yes that's what my video is showing
jackson6745
Yeah Yeah
Michael, I meant removing the DSB little by little with each water change. You would be surprised how much sand that you can siphon out with a 20 gallon water change. Just a thought
That's the way I did it. Doing it this way didn't cause any additional problems - just didn't help. Maybe if I'd removed the whole thing and replaced it with a shallow sand bed seeded with the old bed things might have been different.
trueblackpercula
New member
Why do I want to remove the sand bed? Are you saying it has to be removed ?
Don't know if this helps and I'm no expert but here's a school of thought that thinks that phosphate binds with calcium carbonate over time. At some point the level of phosphate in the rock/sand gets high enough that it starts to leach the phosphate back into the water column. As you attempt to deplete the phosphate in the water column via GFO etc the levels in the water columng get low enough to create an imbalance an some amount of phosphate in the rock is released back into the water column to correct the imbalance. You add more GFO, remove more phosphate, more phosphate is released from the rock and so the cycle starts.
There's a fair number of threads on the subject.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2181057&highlight=phosphate+rock
There's a fair number of threads on the subject.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2181057&highlight=phosphate+rock
trueblackpercula
New member
Well thanks for the information but with out running GFO my system is alway been around 0.01 to 0.03 and I thought that was good. I only used the GFO for two reasons. First to remove PO4 faster so the algae has nothing to feed off of. Second reason is it keeps the tank crystal clear. So am I on the wrong track here but I thought 0.01 to 0.03 was good or is it another type of phosphate that you are recurring to?
LedZep fan2
Member
The whole point in removing old sand and getting new sand is to replenish the tank with "fresh" calcium carbonate. Like the person who posted above me said, phosphates bind to calcium carbonate - they are not exported, only cycled through the tank. Microfauna only breaks it down further via detritus and excretes it out. You may be siphoning all the gunk, but the sand will only work for so long until it is "full". Also, your phosphate levels may read normal now, but that is because the nuisance algae is utilizing it to grow - thus giving you a false reading. My tank is going through the same problem.
You're doing a great job of removing the detritus, but on a tank with sand that is 6 years old the sand should be refreshed with new sand so that you have a fresh phosphate "sponge".
If you have mainly SPS, have you thought about going BB? The only reason I haven't gone BB is because I mainly have softies and LPS - that thrive in a more "dirty" tank
You're doing a great job of removing the detritus, but on a tank with sand that is 6 years old the sand should be refreshed with new sand so that you have a fresh phosphate "sponge".
If you have mainly SPS, have you thought about going BB? The only reason I haven't gone BB is because I mainly have softies and LPS - that thrive in a more "dirty" tank
trueblackpercula
New member
Thanks for the advice and the education as I am still learning all of this. Removing all the sand and placing new sand bed sound risky not to mention removing everything from the tank.
If thats the way I go then at that point I might as well go bare bottom again and that was hard for me but I do have a better understanding of how to feed the system now to keep nutrients in there to create a good balance.
Let me see how it goes with the vacuum I created and see if that helps and then remove some of the sand a little at a time and add new sand back In. I was told that removing the sand and adding new sand will release poison gas Into the water column and Crash the system.
Also at what point do you start messing with the biological filtration when you start removing Probably over 100 pounds of live sand.
This hobby gets more and more complicated when things go wrong. I really don't want to break down the tank but I have a feeling that this is going to be the last resort.
I don't understand how others keep there tanks for years and never go through this.
Well in any case I will post some updates next weekend and see what happens after I change 10 more gallons
Many thanks everyone
Chriskid
New member
very cool to hear. i saw an article on this some years back, however never saw someone put it into action.
LedZep fan2
Member
No problem! I'm going through the same thing so I've been doing a lot of research.
As far as removing all the sand, it does not have to be done all at once - in fact, I'd recommend against doing it all at once. The goal should be to remove it all over the course of a few months. With every water change, try pulling out a small section. Just enough so that you can replace it with fresh dry sand. Then next time pull out a new section and replace it with sand once again. Within the week or two in between water changes, the new sand should be seeded from the old. Essentially, you are doing minimal changes over an extended period of time.
I know the fear of releasing toxins is there, but to be completely honest your siphoning method is more of a disturbance to the sand bed compared to removing small sections over time. Either way the chance of releasing phosphates and toxins is there, it's just a matter of manipulating how you go about controlling it.
trueblackpercula
New member
Again thank you but it would almost impossible to remove all the sand from my tank without breaking it down and you just can't add over it or it suffocates what's underneath it.
But after looking at the tank a few minutes ago the sand that's in front of the glass shows so much signs of worms now that where not present before. I think the cleaning has triggered a good thing as mentioned by Biggles.
I think I will just keep with the plan with the one exception of adding some carbon and running the light with mostly blue spectrum. The reason for this is the 20k lighting fuels the cyno bacteria.
Or I could just leave the lights out for 3 days but I am in fear that my pale sps will die because they don't have enough zoanthela to feed them selves and with out light will just starve to death. <<<<< is this a true statement ?
Michael
LedZep fan2
Member
I wouldn't test the corals without light. If they already show signs of stress (I.e paleness, bleaching) I wouldn't play around with it. Just cut off all excess nutrients - phosphates primarily and you should see a decrease in algae blooms. If light is what you are concerned with, cut down the amount of time they are on during the day
Bacteria can remove P from the sand. They can take the P up the system as bacteria => micro fauna => food for fish/coral food/water column stuff/etc. => skimmer. Sand does not have to be a permanent P sink, but it can be if you clog it up with gunk.
The P can also get unbound if the alk gets too low and the aragonite needs to melt to buffer. Otherwise, it is bound. It does not leech, but the sand can get to a place where it appears to be leeching because it is no longer capable of doing it job so levels rise - clogged.
If you keep the sand pretty clean to where the micro fauna and bacteria can operate, then you can have a sustainable system for years without N and P issues.
I would not cut the lights. Soon, the sand will re-establish where you cleaned it and should be able to bind and swap P and the cyano should go down soon on it's own. This might take a month, or so. Healthy SPS can go a few days in the dark, but I would not risk it with coral in substandard condition.
The P can also get unbound if the alk gets too low and the aragonite needs to melt to buffer. Otherwise, it is bound. It does not leech, but the sand can get to a place where it appears to be leeching because it is no longer capable of doing it job so levels rise - clogged.
If you keep the sand pretty clean to where the micro fauna and bacteria can operate, then you can have a sustainable system for years without N and P issues.
I would not cut the lights. Soon, the sand will re-establish where you cleaned it and should be able to bind and swap P and the cyano should go down soon on it's own. This might take a month, or so. Healthy SPS can go a few days in the dark, but I would not risk it with coral in substandard condition.
jackson6745
Yeah Yeah
You are having all sorts of problems related to high nutrients and you are pulling muck from your sandbed. I'll let you do the detective work
If it was my tank, I would clean house.
biggles
Premium Member
I think it's pretty clear you don't want to tear down the tank and start over Michael, i wouldn't want to either. You can change out a significant amount of your DSB to freshen things up with very little filth or toxins being released by doing it the same way i did.
All you do is make yourself a cookie cutter for the sand bed. I used 4" dia acrylic tube with 1/8" thick walls. I cut a length 7" long so it was a couple of inches taller than the 5" DSB. Just push it into the DSB until it bottoms out and then use your siphon hose to remove everything within the walls of your cutter. You then just pour new sand back in the hole and pull out the sand cutter. Any kitchen container be it square or round etc will work after you cut the bottom off to make a hollow tube like cutter as long as it's high enough to extend a few inches above your existing DSB depth. The thinner but still rigid the walls of your cutter the easier it is to push through the sand so when your wife goes shopping make your move................
Turning the lights out on your pale acros won't starve them to death over 3-4 days mate, it would take a lot longer than that and anyway there's food in your water that you don't even know about that the polyps can still consume.
You can try swapping out as much of the DSB as you want over time and use your siphon on the spots that are too difficult to reach in a safe manner. Totally up to you which way you go but replacing the sand as i described is just as quick as slowly siphoning the sand as you've been doing and less likely to release toxins than your current method tbh. The bonus is you are sanitizing the area you're working on completely rather than sucking out a limited amount of filth with lots also going into the water. Do a couple of spots each week with your water change and the critters will quickly populate the new areas.
Let us know how you go with the cleanup mate and keep positive, things will only get better once you get on top of this nutrient issue :beer:
All you do is make yourself a cookie cutter for the sand bed. I used 4" dia acrylic tube with 1/8" thick walls. I cut a length 7" long so it was a couple of inches taller than the 5" DSB. Just push it into the DSB until it bottoms out and then use your siphon hose to remove everything within the walls of your cutter. You then just pour new sand back in the hole and pull out the sand cutter. Any kitchen container be it square or round etc will work after you cut the bottom off to make a hollow tube like cutter as long as it's high enough to extend a few inches above your existing DSB depth. The thinner but still rigid the walls of your cutter the easier it is to push through the sand so when your wife goes shopping make your move................
Turning the lights out on your pale acros won't starve them to death over 3-4 days mate, it would take a lot longer than that and anyway there's food in your water that you don't even know about that the polyps can still consume.
You can try swapping out as much of the DSB as you want over time and use your siphon on the spots that are too difficult to reach in a safe manner. Totally up to you which way you go but replacing the sand as i described is just as quick as slowly siphoning the sand as you've been doing and less likely to release toxins than your current method tbh. The bonus is you are sanitizing the area you're working on completely rather than sucking out a limited amount of filth with lots also going into the water. Do a couple of spots each week with your water change and the critters will quickly populate the new areas.
Let us know how you go with the cleanup mate and keep positive, things will only get better once you get on top of this nutrient issue :beer:
If you want to replace it, just can just drop the wet sand down a 2" PCV pipe. The dry stuff is too dusty IME, but the stuff in the bag with the water (the supposedly bio active stuff) goes down pretty well once you rinse it a bit. One bag a year will get to where you are never in this place again.
Cleaning it will do the job, though. I used to be a sand swapper, but now I just clean it - it has the same results for me.
Cleaning it will do the job, though. I used to be a sand swapper, but now I just clean it - it has the same results for me.
