6 year old DSB in an SPS tank you wont believe your eyes

[reefmutt]

Hello,

Here is a part of my aquarium that is 30 years old, without any great changes during the years.
In the beginning there were no SPS or LPS in.
With a DBS is the sump. I think I must have a lot of detritus that is made during all this years.
I don't clear it nearly.
The aquarium is now full of SPS-corals and LPS for more than 15 years and all goes well till now.
No sign of the old aquarium syndrom I think.

Nice looking tank!
I don't want to derail trueblack's thread but could you post some stats about your system? Volume, parameters etc?
I'm not sure if having what you have in your sump really equates much to what trueblack has in his system, but it is very intriguing that you have such a healthy system with a 15 yearsold untouched section of your system..
Thanks!

 

[trueblackpercula]

nice looking tank!
I don't want to derail trueblack's thread but could you post some stats about your system? Volume, parameters etc?
I'm not sure if having what you have in your sump really equates much to what trueblack has in his system, but it is very intriguing that you have such a healthy system with a 15 yearsold untouched section of your system..
Thanks!

+1

 

[trueblackpercula]

There is not much to see in my sump. It is difficult to make a picture.

The space in the sump with the DSB is 60x39 cm.
The sand (broken coral), is 12 cm thick and is there for about 15 years.
My sump is totaly covered with isolation stuff.

Wait a second it just dawned on me. You already posted a picture what's a few more of the sand and the sump area. Without the pictures I really hate to say this but credibility is everything!!!
Thanks for sharing

 

[reefmutt]

i'm wondering what "my sump is totally covered with isolation stuff" means..
its not a big area, nor is it very deep.. about 2 feet by 1 foot and about 5 inches deep..
much smaller area that your tank…
id love to hear a few more details..

 

[S2minute]

For those of you that have a remote DSB. The Key to it's success is this: Leave it ALONE! Don't stir it, directly feed it, expose it to direct light, add ANY sand sifters and make sure it's a min 6" and of the right grain size.

Do, look at it, smile at it, watch the sponge grow, the infauna eat the stuff that floats down on it and know that the Bacteria is converting waste products to harmless nitrogen gas. Use compartments if you feel the need to slowly change out the DSB however, i'm still not sure i really need to in my system despite the initial abuse the system took upon setup many years ago.

 

[vadyre]

i'm wondering what "my sump is totally covered with isolation stuff" means..
its not a big area, nor is it very deep.. about 2 feet by 1 foot and about 5 inches deep..
much smaller area that your tank"¦
id love to hear a few more details..

My intention is not to present here my aquarium, only to tell that I maintain the aquarium all this years without being concerned about detritus or cleanings.
Till now all corals react still good with colours and growth.
That is the reason that I keep doing so and I' not so convinced that detritus is a great danger for the healthness of our corals. Other parameters are more suspected.
A few photo's of some of my SPS-corals, all growed from from little frags.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Well I promised nothing but the truth and an update. I checked my tank like I do every single day LOL but this morning i noticed my sand bed is 65% covered with cyno bacteria/dino not really sure which one I have any more.

What I have observed is the darker areas of the tank the sand bed under the caves of my rock work does not have any algae. So anyone willing to say that the reason the sand bed is in bad condition has nothing to do with me cleaning it.

Some of my SPs look a lot better and the STN appears to have stopped. I am also noticing an Alkalinty drop that is hovering around 7.8 so the Sps are now using up Alk and calcium has dropped as well, all good signs I think.

Tomorrow I will change out 5 gallons again but not vacuum the sand as much as the last cleaning was very aggressive. below is a picture of the sand bed to show the algae/cyno what ever you call it to show what is going on..

Michael

 

[biggles]

Hey Michael, thanks for including the pics as they make it easy to see what's going on. Unfortunately no matter how hard you try you will always release crap into the water when cleaning sand and coupled with the temporary loss of efficiency with your DSB due to the disturbance you'll get a nutrient spike. I've always thought cyano gets out of control fast because it smothers the areas that tank water needs to circulate through such as the rocks and sand and thus reduces the bio filtration capacity of your tank which in turn allows it to go from a few spots to major outbreak even faster.
I always disturb the stuff or siphon it out not for the looks but to allow the tanks bio filtration to continue operating efficiently. I'd suggest knocking that outbreak on the head with GFO, less feeding for a few weeks and no more sand bed cleaning. Once you clear it up you can have another crack at siphoning the spots not yet cleaned.

I'm glad you're not freaking out as what's going on is not a tank crash but simply a disturbance of the 'nutrient force' :strooper: It will take some time to remove the years of built up crud mate but the way you're approaching it in a positive manner is great Michael. :thumbsup: The slow rise in alk and calc demand is always a good thing large rapid changes are always bad lol.

 

[reefmutt]

maybe an addition of kz's new cyano reducing product?
it's supposed to introduce bacterial strains that outcompete the cyano…
i have not used it, however…

i'd be careful about throwing too much carbon in there.. may stress the corals a bit if you add a lot...

 

[Tek]

I had a cyano outbreak on my 3 year old sand bed in OCT after a total crash. I left the sand bed alone but 2 months after and even with parameters perfect I still had cyano. I started to siphon the sand all the way to the bottom 2-3" every 2 weeks and a section of tank at a time. The siphon would pickup a good amount of sand and drop it back down while taking away the gunk. Cyano is almost gone after 2-3 siphons and the sand is white above and below as when new. SPS have colored up very well and growth/PE is a lot better. I noticed a bit of diatoms but nothing major.

I am going to start doing the same in my other tank.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Just watted to give an update to ensure that this thread would be used for future use. I started the cleaning of the DSb on 12/21/2013 and its been about 23 days now. I am happy to report that the removal of what ever was in the DSB has helped my SPS come back from being Pale and little to no PE. There colors have also enhanced but that may be attributed to the feeding off the Pappone in conjunction of the DSB cleaning but thats another thread >>>. That can be found here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2332173

So I still am fighting some small areas of Cyno and some crazy hair algea that is almost like bryops looking green stuff from hell. But its alsmost gone and I am feeling a lot better about my tanks position.

**** I would recomend anyone have problems with there DSB to use the method I provided as a good prectice to clean up the tank. but go slow and dont over do it.***

Here are a few pictures of the sand bed coming back to life.

 

[S2minute]

Now, THAT'S what i'm talken about True. See those little critters in there Except i do believe your grain size is wrong as well as the grain texture...at least by the picture. If you can obtain sand that is 1mm or less and with a smoother texture i think your results will be much better. The smaller grain size helps prevent larger food particles from being trapped. It is also much more user friendly to the worms and other life not to mention that it will help support a wider verity of "infauna" to live.
The reason why i have my DSB located remotely is because it prevents me from inadvertently messing with it. If a DSB is in the main DT, moving rocks can disturb it. if the grain size is to big, when you feed your DT the larger food particles will make it past the surface and become embedded within the DSB and rot. Since your NOT supposed to touch the DSB these food particles build up over time and your DSB then becomes a nutrient bank. That creates actually the opposite effect of what you want hence GHA etc.
Then you think, omg look at my tank ..all that nasty GHA and you go to Syphon your DSB and BOOM....nutrient explosion and ...maybe the system crashes.
You may be better off with just a 1" layer of substrate in your DT. Then it's main function would not be that of a DSB and the grain size would not matter...as much. Years ago Home Depot sold white play sand called South Down play sand. It's the ideal grain size and texture for a DSB. It's also just sand. You still have to rinse it though. However, i believe collection of this sand became an issue at the point of origin and since, i believe HD sold sand under a different name. If you do a little research and a trip to your local large box stores you may find this sand sold under a different name. If it's used as "playsand" for kids, it should be generally safe to use as a DSB after rinsing. Very small and consistent grain size with smoother surface is what you want.
The key is not to disturb it AT ALL, unless you set it up like i did. If you use Aragonite sand just remember that if you Ph dips below 7.8 that sand will desolve. That will create distress among the DSB inhabitants. Besides, if your Ph dips below 7.8 in the first place that could mean you have problems somewhere else. I hope this helps. If you DO find the sand i'm referring to sold still under a different name please tell everyone about it and what big box store has it. Good luck .

 

[trueblackpercula]

Now, THAT'S what i'm talken about True. See those little critters in there Except i do believe your grain size is wrong as well as the grain texture...at least by the picture. If you can obtain sand that is 1mm or less and with a smoother texture i think your results will be much better. The smaller grain size helps prevent larger food particles from being trapped. It is also much more user friendly to the worms and other life not to mention that it will help support a wider verity of "infauna" to live.
The reason why i have my DSB located remotely is because it prevents me from inadvertently messing with it. If a DSB is in the main DT, moving rocks can disturb it. if the grain size is to big, when you feed your DT the larger food particles will make it past the surface and become embedded within the DSB and rot. Since your NOT supposed to touch the DSB these food particles build up over time and your DSB then becomes a nutrient bank. That creates actually the opposite effect of what you want hence GHA etc.
Then you think, omg look at my tank ..all that nasty GHA and you go to Syphon your DSB and BOOM....nutrient explosion and ...maybe the system crashes.
You may be better off with just a 1" layer of substrate in your DT. Then it's main function would not be that of a DSB and the grain size would not matter...as much. Years ago Home Depot sold white play sand called South Down play sand. It's the ideal grain size and texture for a DSB. It's also just sand. You still have to rinse it though. However, i believe collection of this sand became an issue at the point of origin and since, i believe HD sold sand under a different name. If you do a little research and a trip to your local large box stores you may find this sand sold under a different name. If it's used as "playsand" for kids, it should be generally safe to use as a DSB after rinsing. Very small and consistent grain size with smoother surface is what you want.
The key is not to disturb it AT ALL, unless you set it up like i did. If you use Aragonite sand just remember that if you Ph dips below 7.8 that sand will desolve. That will create distress among the DSB inhabitants. Besides, if your Ph dips below 7.8 in the first place that could mean you have problems somewhere else. I hope this helps. If you DO find the sand i'm referring to sold still under a different name please tell everyone about it and what big box store has it. Good luck .

Again thank you for all your advice. When you get a chance please post a few pictures of your DSB as I am sure we would all like to see it.

As of yesterday I clean the top layer only of the sand bed to remove the red cyno. It is getting to be less and less each week. I think I am winning the battle and this makes me feel better and happier with the decision to clean the sand bed In the manner that I did. I will also say that feeding pappone sure has had a positive affect on the living animals I the sand bed explode with life.

I know this is a good thing as long as I continue to feed the pappone to the system. By the way this food source is amazing and I tested my water levels and to my surprise my nitrates still read zero and P04 is 0.01

So changing 6 gallons of water weekly and adding GFO two tablespoons is doing the trick in balancing the water chemistry.

I think in another month or so and I can close the chapter on this thread.

Michael

 

[RxMike]

Awesome True,
please clarify with your weekly water change do you add 2 tablespoons of Rowaphos?

 

[trueblackpercula]

Awesome True,
please clarify with your weekly water change do you add 2 tablespoons of Rowaphos?

Hello.

No I have changed it twice only since I did the sand bed clean up and this has been working very well for me. I also added the smallest size of a bag of chemi pure a few days after the sand bed cleaning. I looked at the tank yesterday and I am blown away with how the Sps look. I only hope I am on the road to success and again thank you everyone for letting me not only vent but also trying what most aren't.

By the way rowaphos is super strong that's why I only use a little.

Michael

 

[GroktheCube]

I just started removing my SB last night. I vacuum it every month or so fairly thoroughly, and I was SHOCKED at how filthy it was coming out of my tank. Dark, dark brown and stinky. I think it actually looked "dirtier" than my skimmate usually does, lol. I feel like I keep my sand bed pretty clean, so I was surprised to see all that coming out of it. When the gunk settled out of the water a bit, there was at least half an inch of gunk on top of the sand, and I only removed about a quarter of my sandbed.

It definitely helped reinforce my decision to remove it!

 

[S2minute]

Dsb

Dsb

I just started removing my SB last night. I vacuum it every month or so fairly thoroughly, and I was SHOCKED at how filthy it was coming out of my tank. Dark, dark brown and stinky. I think it actually looked "dirtier" than my skimmate usually does, lol. I feel like I keep my sand bed pretty clean, so I was surprised to see all that coming out of it. When the gunk settled out of the water a bit, there was at least half an inch of gunk on top of the sand, and I only removed about a quarter of my sandbed.

It definitely helped reinforce my decision to remove it!

Some folks just don't have the room to remotely locate a DSB. With others it would take a drastic effort to redo. So, after you face the reality of it, what do you do? Do you want to be successful? Is it worth the extra effort?

More than likely your already neck deep into your investment of time and money. SO...why no more effort? Make all that time and $ pay off. Once you face the reality of what it's going to take to construct a DSB correctly, just do it. There are lots of ways. As i stated before, my DSB is remotely located. At best, it receives only ambient room light so what can grow on it? The only food it receives is what either is residual food that makes it in after i feed the DT, what makes it in after a 200 micron filter sock does it's job and whatever Detritus floats down onto it from the LR above. I never clean it, not for years until i switched out 5 compartments which i don't feel i had to do.
Also, there are NO sand sifters of any kind introduced. The DSB remains untouched, undisturbed and CLEAN w/o any effort from myself. Once in a while I remove the black plastic shielding the DSB from light to take a look. No Black areas to indicate H2S and never any rotten egg smell. I believe it's success is due to the sand grain size and texture, no light, no sand sifters and NO me messing with it all the time.
Two days ago i tested for NO3. On the low range, undectable. Last week i used a hanna U/L checker for Po4...8 ppb which is about .024 ppm. I feed hvy at times. Two days ago it was 16 ppb. i treated with LC and then a 50 gal WC as standard 1-2 weekly. I installed my DSB in this manner because i believe it will help me create a more extensive environment for life. Why not? It's that way in nature. You just have to take some extra steps to do it beacuse of the closed systems we have. Hanna checker reading just in: 7 ppb which is .021 ppm not to shabby.

 

[GroktheCube]

Some folks just don't have the room to remotely locate a DSB. With others it would take a drastic effort to redo. So, after you face the reality of it, what do you do? Do you want to be successful? Is it worth the extra effort?

More than likely your already neck deep into your investment of time and money. SO...why no more effort? Make all that time and $ pay off. Once you face the reality of what it's going to take to construct a DSB correctly, just do it. There are lots of ways. As i stated before, my DSB is remotely located. At best, it receives only ambient room light so what can grow on it? The only food it receives is what either is residual food that makes it in after i feed the DT, what makes it in after a 200 micron filter sock does it's job and whatever Detritus floats down onto it from the LR above. I never clean it, not for years until i switched out 5 compartments which i don't feel i had to do.
Also, there are NO sand sifters of any kind introduced. The DSB remains untouched, undisturbed and CLEAN w/o any effort from myself. Once in a while I remove the black plastic shielding the DSB from light to take a look. No Black areas to indicate H2S and never any rotten egg smell. I believe it's success is due to the sand grain size and texture, no light, no sand sifters and NO me messing with it all the time.
Two days ago i tested for NO3. On the low range, undectable. Last week i used a hanna U/L checker for Po4...8 ppb which is about .024 ppm. I feed hvy at times. Two days ago it was 16 ppb. i treated with LC and then a 50 gal WC as standard 1-2 weekly. I installed my DSB in this manner because i believe it will help me create a more extensive environment for life. Why not? It's that way in nature. You just have to take some extra steps to do it beacuse of the closed systems we have. Hanna checker reading just in: 7 ppb which is .021 ppm not to shabby.

I may set up an RDSB if I start seeing nutrient/algae problems after I finish removing my sand bed. I'd need to shuffle around my reactors and/or dosing containers a bit, but it'd be doable.

Here's a photo of my "haul" from tonight. This is after 10 minutes of settling. All this sand had been vacuumed at most two weeks ago :eek1:

 

[Sorry]

Those videos are insane! I could've watched an hour of that lol

 

[trueblackpercula]

Well I am getting very frustrated with Reef-Keeping at this point in my life. I have tried everything that has come to mind and NOW need help from everyone here.

After looking at every possible thing in the tank and everything I add to the tank I came across a piece of the sheet rock wall that was cut when I installed the tank in 2007. I have been noticing power or dust like particles on the surface of my water and didn’t think anything of it. After a closer look I noticed that the sheet rock wall was soft to the touch and after pulling the paint off I noticed that sheet rock has been falling in my tank for god knows how long maybe years. Does anyone think that this could be the cause of most of my red cyno sand bed problems?

Also I lost two more Acros over the past couple days that have not looked good in weeks. One is completed bleached (RTN) out and the other is fighting to hang on MY LARGE STAG TO THE RIGHT. I plan on removing some of the sand bed this weekend while the wife and kids are away. So I will have three days to make the mess and clean up before they come back home. I plan on removing 20 to 40lbs or less and then replacing it with the same stuff that comes in the bags now a day’s wet that claims to have live bacteria in it. I am sure that the sand I have now will seed it. So does anyone recommend a certain grain size or manufacture that I should use?

I was thinking about Oolite but have read it moves/blows around too much under heavy flow. Any and All suggestions are welcome. I have also decided to add a cryptic zone in the sump area by adding live rock to an area that receives little to no light. I will add a few sponges that have started to grow in the main display tank that are white in color by removing them and placing them in that area.
I am so close to adding chemiclean because of the red cyno bacteria that its not even funny.

So here are my questions.
1)Repair sheet rock wall and Should I just add chemi clean and call it a day?
2)Repair sheet rock wall and Remove as much as the red cyno bacteria and then add new sand over the old sand bed? Only about one inch to one and half inches. < need to know what type please.

Oh Yeah feeding Pappone has done wonders for the SPS/sand bed, thay are thriving with life like i have never seen before.

So my system is like 50/50 as fare is health goes so any suggestions would be greatly Appreciated. :wave:

Temp 78 degrees
Salinity 1.025
Nitrtates 0
Alkalinity 8.9 to 9.0
Magnesium 1350
Calcium 500
P04 0.01 to 0.03

Please feel free to ask anything that you may think i should be exploring.

look at the sheet rock