600gal (96x48x30)
- Thread starter JohnL
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jnarowe
New member
Yeah, typically shrimp die first IME...how did they behave when you put them in? Did they check each other out or hide in the corners? How about O2 or ORP? What other fish do you have in the tank? What time of day did you add them? Have you used any chemicals in the system? Any algal blooms? Stray electrical current? Pop any breakers lately?
This is indeed a strange thing to happen and you'll have to do quite a bit of brain storming to figure it out.
This is indeed a strange thing to happen and you'll have to do quite a bit of brain storming to figure it out.
asnatlas
New member
When I added everything it was hrs before the lights came on and they were fine, they hung out in the rock work for the first day, but nothing abnormal, They were swimming around like they owned the place and would eat when fed... ORP is around mid 200ish right now... I have a clown and a BTA in the 50gal frag tank and they are doing fine... The GSPs are doing fine as well and I know they are very touchy with water quality... I have not used anything in the system other then DOW and MAG flakes... I had normal diatom bloom which went away in about a wk thanks to the snails and scarlets... I did have the bloom in my water column that cleared with in a wk... I tested and I don't have any electrical currents in the system... Equ and breakers have been fine...
jnarowe
New member
hmmm...interesting problem. I assume salinity and temp. were close enough between the QT and the display, and you would have seen a reaction sooner regarding that anyway. Is there an anemone in the display?
Do you have a computer controller like a Neptune on the system? If so, you can check the logs to see if there was any anomoly. The ORP is a bit low, but not too low IMO.
The question is, why would two fish die simultaneously and yet nothing else? Shock? I don't think so after that long of a time being in the display. Water quality? Seems unlikely since the other animals are OK, and some of them are more sensative than the fish. Predation? Possibly but unlikely based on what you have already stated regarding no wounds etc.
Since they are both tangs, I would bet that the most probable cause is a fight to the death between the two fish in which they both got too many razor cuts, exhausted themselves, and died. Often it is hard to see the cuts from tangs becase they are fairly fine blades. I would do a very close inspection of each fish and look for signs of scalpel wounds. Even though you have a very large tank, these two fish are notorious trouble makers and in particular with similar shaped fish. As strange as it may seem, I would bet they killed each other.
Do you have a computer controller like a Neptune on the system? If so, you can check the logs to see if there was any anomoly. The ORP is a bit low, but not too low IMO.
The question is, why would two fish die simultaneously and yet nothing else? Shock? I don't think so after that long of a time being in the display. Water quality? Seems unlikely since the other animals are OK, and some of them are more sensative than the fish. Predation? Possibly but unlikely based on what you have already stated regarding no wounds etc.
Since they are both tangs, I would bet that the most probable cause is a fight to the death between the two fish in which they both got too many razor cuts, exhausted themselves, and died. Often it is hard to see the cuts from tangs becase they are fairly fine blades. I would do a very close inspection of each fish and look for signs of scalpel wounds. Even though you have a very large tank, these two fish are notorious trouble makers and in particular with similar shaped fish. As strange as it may seem, I would bet they killed each other.
tylorarm
Premium Member
Seems a little odd that they would get along in the frag tank but fight that seriously in the big tank. Maybe staking out territory didn't go so well? i have two tangs that spar every now and then and you can usually see some scratches around where the scapels are, as they go at it tail to tail. Seems most likely has something to do with the adjustment from the water perameters, or the parameters themselves, unless they already had a disease that you missed. Could you have had a few of your new snails die that led to an ammonia spike?
asnatlas
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8887187#post8887187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
hmmm...interesting problem. I assume salinity and temp. were close enough between the QT and the display, and you would have seen a reaction sooner regarding that anyway. Is there an anemone in the display?
Do you have a computer controller like a Neptune on the system? If so, you can check the logs to see if there was any anomoly. The ORP is a bit low, but not too low IMO.
The question is, why would two fish die simultaneously and yet nothing else? Shock? I don't think so after that long of a time being in the display. Water quality? Seems unlikely since the other animals are OK, and some of them are more sensative than the fish. Predation? Possibly but unlikely based on what you have already stated regarding no wounds etc.
Since they are both tangs, I would bet that the most probable cause is a fight to the death between the two fish in which they both got too many razor cuts, exhausted themselves, and died. Often it is hard to see the cuts from tangs becase they are fairly fine blades. I would do a very close inspection of each fish and look for signs of scalpel wounds. Even though you have a very large tank, these two fish are notorious trouble makers and in particular with similar shaped fish. As strange as it may seem, I would bet they killed each other.
Temps been steady at 77.5deg (+/- .5deg) and the SG is 1.026 and when they were transferred over they both did a 2hr+ drip... The tangs were housed together in the same QT tank and nothing happened in there... Like I said I could not see any marks on them as I looked over both very well...
My only guess is it was some disease that I missed / and or got worse when I moved them into the display... I am sure a snail or two, or there have died, but I can't see that causing an ammonia spike that would kill two tangs in 850gal of water and when I tested it was fine...
tylorarm
Premium Member
Velvet kills pretty quick, is common and contagious. Here's a little excerpt on identifying post-mortum and life cycle (note that its source can be anything wet:
Life Cycle of Amyloodinium:
This parasite is most often "brought in" to a new system from newly acquired infected fish/es, but may be acquired and passed on invertebrates, live rock, algae... most anything wet. Hence the need for diligence in selection, acclimation and quarantine.
Free-swimming infective dinospores, have an apical flagellum and one at the waistline in a groove, red eye spot, measure 9-15 microns. According to Bower (1987) dinospores can usually live for 7-8 days without finding a host and are infective for 6, remaining alive and infective even longer at lower temperatures. She recounts that though most emerge from encystation within 5 days and survive another 7 to 9 days, some dinospores were present in their test tanks (at 75-80 F.) some 37 days later.
Taxonomy/Nutrition:
Amyloodinium is a Dinophycean (Dinoflagellate), of the same order as Gymnodinium breve (red tide organism), family Peridineae. This parasitic species derives all nutrition from its host; lacks photosynthetic chloroplasts (Unlike freshwater species of Oodinium). Marine velvet absorbs cytoplasmic fluid by means of a pseudopod that appears to have histolytic properties. Primarily it is a gill parasite, but may attach to the body (Blasiola 1978)
Clinical Signs/Pathology:
Tissue ulceration and hypersecretion of mucus are obvious microscopically. Hyperplasia and filament adhesion, with the feeding stage burrowing deep into the fish host's subcutaneous skin layer. Infected fishes have a white, tan, golden or gray dusty or powdery appearance over their outside. May not be seen till late stage as the gill filaments are primary sites, therefore rapid breathing is a key initial symptom. Always display rapid breathing (more than 80 openings per minute). Additionally, infected fishes generally swim near the surface, "flash" or scratch against the bottom, decor and refuse food. All fish in the system will have the disease to a varying degree. Loss of life is said to come about from interference with respiration, but many dead fish examined have few parasites on their gills, so the question of toxin involvement is raised.
Identification of Amyloodinium is attained through a skin slime smear (or gill section if the fish is dead) with a spatula or glass slide, cover glass. Dinospores can be seen at 150 times magnification locomoting in wavy, bee-line tumbling motion. They are bell-shaped, have a mid-line constriction, about ten microns in length. Vegetative forms are about 60 microns, slightly oblong, dark colored, containing large starch granules that stain easily with iodine.
Life Cycle of Amyloodinium:
This parasite is most often "brought in" to a new system from newly acquired infected fish/es, but may be acquired and passed on invertebrates, live rock, algae... most anything wet. Hence the need for diligence in selection, acclimation and quarantine.
Free-swimming infective dinospores, have an apical flagellum and one at the waistline in a groove, red eye spot, measure 9-15 microns. According to Bower (1987) dinospores can usually live for 7-8 days without finding a host and are infective for 6, remaining alive and infective even longer at lower temperatures. She recounts that though most emerge from encystation within 5 days and survive another 7 to 9 days, some dinospores were present in their test tanks (at 75-80 F.) some 37 days later.
Taxonomy/Nutrition:
Amyloodinium is a Dinophycean (Dinoflagellate), of the same order as Gymnodinium breve (red tide organism), family Peridineae. This parasitic species derives all nutrition from its host; lacks photosynthetic chloroplasts (Unlike freshwater species of Oodinium). Marine velvet absorbs cytoplasmic fluid by means of a pseudopod that appears to have histolytic properties. Primarily it is a gill parasite, but may attach to the body (Blasiola 1978)
Clinical Signs/Pathology:
Tissue ulceration and hypersecretion of mucus are obvious microscopically. Hyperplasia and filament adhesion, with the feeding stage burrowing deep into the fish host's subcutaneous skin layer. Infected fishes have a white, tan, golden or gray dusty or powdery appearance over their outside. May not be seen till late stage as the gill filaments are primary sites, therefore rapid breathing is a key initial symptom. Always display rapid breathing (more than 80 openings per minute). Additionally, infected fishes generally swim near the surface, "flash" or scratch against the bottom, decor and refuse food. All fish in the system will have the disease to a varying degree. Loss of life is said to come about from interference with respiration, but many dead fish examined have few parasites on their gills, so the question of toxin involvement is raised.
Identification of Amyloodinium is attained through a skin slime smear (or gill section if the fish is dead) with a spatula or glass slide, cover glass. Dinospores can be seen at 150 times magnification locomoting in wavy, bee-line tumbling motion. They are bell-shaped, have a mid-line constriction, about ten microns in length. Vegetative forms are about 60 microns, slightly oblong, dark colored, containing large starch granules that stain easily with iodine.
jnarowe
New member
Wow...I am stumped. I doubt a disease could kill them both simultaneously with no behavioral or physical indications whatsoever. It certainly is an interesting mystery. The only other strange death I have had is when one of my fish choked on a clump of algae and substrate...I couldn't believe that!
asnatlas
New member
Yea, that has been going through my mind... I am prob going to leave the system fishless for like 2 months so that if it is a disease it will be gone for good (I hope)... I figured if I left the tank fishless I could start moving my corals over and letting them take foot and start gowing...
Yes, all 3 plus 2 angels were in the 100gal rubbermaid... The 2 angels and Black tang are doing fine (in the 100gal QT)... I don't see anything on them or wrong with them and they are eatting fine...
melev
Well-known member
These deaths make no sense to me at all. I was wondering if you had a starving mantis in there that killed them both perhaps, hitting them hard and fast.
Because they were together in quarantine for so long, I tend to believe they were healthy and happy. The only thing I can think of is that the acclimation went wrong, and the after effect took just over 24 hours to be realized.
Salinity may not be the same between both systems. It is easy to get a false reading on a refractometer if you add an extra drop accidentally. I'll test mine twice to make sure the numbers match. Additionally, 2 hours to acclimate from one system to another is a long time, especially with tangs that use lots of oxygen. What I've done in the past is do a water change, adding reef tank water to the quarantine system, then moving the livestock from the q-tank to the main tank. Acclimation isn't necessary as they are essentially in the same water, especially if you are doing a water change each day in preperation for the move.
Temp, Salinity and Alkalinity are all things tangs are susceptible to, as well as stray electricity.
Because they were together in quarantine for so long, I tend to believe they were healthy and happy. The only thing I can think of is that the acclimation went wrong, and the after effect took just over 24 hours to be realized.
Salinity may not be the same between both systems. It is easy to get a false reading on a refractometer if you add an extra drop accidentally. I'll test mine twice to make sure the numbers match. Additionally, 2 hours to acclimate from one system to another is a long time, especially with tangs that use lots of oxygen. What I've done in the past is do a water change, adding reef tank water to the quarantine system, then moving the livestock from the q-tank to the main tank. Acclimation isn't necessary as they are essentially in the same water, especially if you are doing a water change each day in preperation for the move.
Temp, Salinity and Alkalinity are all things tangs are susceptible to, as well as stray electricity.
jnarowe
New member
All good points Marc, and depending on how the acclimation is done, multiple issues can arise:
1. the temp. of the acclimation chamber can drop significantly if no heater is provided;
2. pH can swing wildly especially if an air stone is utilized;
3. O2 levels can swing quite a bit too.
I used to acclimate multiple animals in containers fed by 1/4" RO/DI tubing with valves from my refugium but what I encountered was serious temp. issues so now I just do as you mentiioned, and do water changes in the QT with the refugium water as the replacement line.
Still, most of these issues would result in death or at least physical symptoms almost immediately and therefore I think can be ruled out.
1. the temp. of the acclimation chamber can drop significantly if no heater is provided;
2. pH can swing wildly especially if an air stone is utilized;
3. O2 levels can swing quite a bit too.
I used to acclimate multiple animals in containers fed by 1/4" RO/DI tubing with valves from my refugium but what I encountered was serious temp. issues so now I just do as you mentiioned, and do water changes in the QT with the refugium water as the replacement line.
Still, most of these issues would result in death or at least physical symptoms almost immediately and therefore I think can be ruled out.
asnatlas
New member
I can tell you there is no mantis as there is only baserock in the display... No LR what so ever... I have a refractometer and I usually measure 3 times when I test to make sure...
I guess when I say drip it's more of a steady stream running... I placed a tub into the macro tank and had the bucket over the frag tank and the water started out as a fast drop for about 20 min or so then I turned it up so that it was a steady stream... I had egg create over the bucket and the water was overflowing into the frag tank for close to 2 hrs... I didn't use any air stones in the buckets...
I have only used RO/DI water... And the QT tank was filled from my display... I will be keeping a close eye on my QT tank...
I did about a 40gal water change today (display only)... I will do another 40gal in a few days...
jnarowe
New member
wow Shawn. So the acclimation bucket was above or set in the water? did you check its? temp? I personally don't think that matters all that much since many tanks here in the NW got below 70F during the recent wind storms without loss of fish. Maybe we should get the Hardy Boys on this?? j/k!
asnatlas
New member
It was sitting on an egg create/PVC shelf that I made... I really think its some sort of disease and if that is the case then the black tang and 2 angels could (prob) have it
I am just wondering with me transferring them from the QT to the display stressed them enough and they were not able to fight it off or something and made it worse... Now the eyes of the dead fish did look "hazy"... I have not had a fish die on me in a while, but I don't recall the eyes being hazy... Is this normal ??
Velvet, its stated that it can come on anything wet, does it only affect fish ?? or anything living ??
jnarowe
New member
well I think a PM to Mr. Wilson will get you the appropriate steps to take with the remaining fish. Any of the remaining fish have hazy eyes?
About the acclimation, I would guess that the temp. got fairly low. It doesn't seem that way but I have done some tests and found alarming drops in temp. even though I was feeding from a 79F source. And the egg crate would probably allow more air flow around the acclimation bucket and drop it even faster. However, I don't think that is what killed your fish. It may have weakened them though and I would ask Mr. Wilson about that too.
About the acclimation, I would guess that the temp. got fairly low. It doesn't seem that way but I have done some tests and found alarming drops in temp. even though I was feeding from a 79F source. And the egg crate would probably allow more air flow around the acclimation bucket and drop it even faster. However, I don't think that is what killed your fish. It may have weakened them though and I would ask Mr. Wilson about that too.
tylorarm
Premium Member
I believe velvet is a fish specific parasite, but not 100% sure. It primarily attacks the gills, which could be where your acclimating tangs may have been vulnerable. You should have seen rapid breathing, but once it hits this stage it can kill prettty quickly. Lots of info about it on Fenner's website.
