75g sps build thread

[allsps40]

False really!? A deep sand bed works buy have at least 5 inches of sand to create a zone of low oxygen where denitrifying bacteria thrive and convert and consume the nitrogen made my the nitrifying bacteria in the upper layers of the sand and on every surface inside the tank. It is the living creatures like pods, worms and crustaceans and different bacteria that eat and break down the detritus. Not the depth of the sand bed. A Deep sand bed that is not healthy/does not have a good population of organisms will build up detritus as will a shallow sand bed. But if you do a 3-4 inch sand bed and populate it with plenty of life detritus will not build up. However I agree that many do not have a sand bed with enough life in it to break down detritus quickly enough.

 

[Allmost]

False really!? A deep sand bed works buy have at least 5 inches of sand to create a zone of low oxygen where denitrifying bacteria thrive and convert and consume the nitrogen made my the nitrifying bacteria in the upper layers of the sand and on every surface inside the tank. It is the living creatures like pods, worms and crustaceans and different bacteria that eat and break down the detritus. Not the depth of the sand bed. A Deep sand bed that is not healthy/does not have a good population of organisms will build up detritus as will a shallow sand bed. But if you do a 3-4 inch sand bed and populate it with plenty of life detritus will not build up. However I agree that many do not have a sand bed with enough life in it to break down detritus quickly enough.

all living animals eat, and produce waste. you can not think that any animal would simply eat detritus, and not make any. all those animals do, is they move detritus around, giving corals and your skimmer a chance to remove them. they do not just get rid of detritus.

did you notice any detritus when removing your sand bed ?

 

[allsps40]

Yes I know that all living things that eat also make waste that is where bacteria comes in and breaks the last remaining waste from the detritivores and converts it into ammonia, then nitrites then nitrates. Then in a deep sand bed the de nitrifying bacteria would break down the no3 where as in a shallow sand bed the no3 will build up and be managed by the person caring for the reef tank.
Yes there is always detritus when removing a sand bed be it 1 inch deep or 6 inches deep. But the detritus in the sand is constantly in the process of being converted into something else. But this is only if the sand bed has a healthy population or life, which is rarely the case in the home aquarium. Be it not adding in the organisms, predators like sand sifting starfish and fish that sift the sand bed it is hard to maintain a healthy population of sand organisms.

 

[Allmost]

Yes I know that all living things that eat also make waste that is where bacteria comes in and breaks the last remaining waste from the detritivores and converts it into ammonia, then nitrites then nitrates. Then in a deep sand bed the de nitrifying bacteria would break down the no3 where as in a shallow sand bed the no3 will build up and be managed by the person caring for the reef tank.

well not entirely true. detritus in sand bed rots, and will rise po4 and nh4-. THEN the bacteria convert nh4- to no2 and no3.

the detritus will continue to rott and give out po4 and nh4- till removed from system.

if you are carbon dosing, then bacteria uses carbon, no3 and po4 to grow ...

now SOME bacteria consume detritus ... for example, the drain opening chemicals sold in big box stores, they contain bacteria that feed on human waste, opening your drain. only such claim was made by KZ's zeovit Biomate, which in my opinion does feed on detritus. but again, not as perfect as we would want them to

 

[allsps40]

The "rotting" as you put it is the bacteria breaking down the detritus. Like I side everything gets converted into something else; food is eaten by the fish, they convert the food into energy and waste/poop, the sand living fauna and micro fauna break down the fish poop/detritus and convert it into energy they can use, bacteria continue to convert the wastes into forms of nitrogen like no3 and po4. All this is a 100% natural process that needs no additives or human action to make it happen. Yes a deep sand bed is much more effective at doing this but a healthy 2-4" inch deep sand bed will do some work. Just keep in mind that we are talking about a closed loop aquarium and anything that goes into it will remain in one form or another until we remove it via water changes.
I dont want this to end up as a ****ing contest so I will leave it at that.

 

[Allmost]

I dont agree with that. science doesnt agree with it neither.

didnt know u take sceintific discussions as a contest ... wrong way of looking at it my friend.

but anyways ...

 

[cediss]

Guys, you both have valid points. Ultimately allsps40 is more accurate scientifically speaking.

Your debate started over the depth of sand bed. As allsps40 said all sand beds will accumulate detritus. There are many factors that determine the "health" of a sand bed. Your debate is hung up on detritus. The real issue that allsps40 was working toward is anaerobic denitrification in which all organic waste can be converted to gas for export from the tank. That's the biggest factor in why the depth of sand bed matters.

 

[cediss]

Tank looking good allsps40!

 

[JT3069]

Yes I know that all living things that eat also make waste that is where bacteria comes in and breaks the last remaining waste from the detritivores and converts it into ammonia, then nitrites then nitrates. Then in a deep sand bed the de nitrifying bacteria would break down the no3 where as in a shallow sand bed the no3 will build up and be managed by the person caring for the reef tank.
Yes there is always detritus when removing a sand bed be it 1 inch deep or 6 inches deep. But the detritus in the sand is constantly in the process of being converted into something else. But this is only if the sand bed has a healthy population or life, which is rarely the case in the home aquarium. Be it not adding in the organisms, predators like sand sifting starfish and fish that sift the sand bed it is hard to maintain a healthy population of sand organisms

why do you think that a healthy sand bed bacteria population is so hard to achieve?
I have one that works great with predators like narssius snails.

but there are so many variatables that differ one tank from another.
i say just use what works for you

 

[Allmost]

Guys, you both have valid points. Ultimately allsps40 is more accurate scientifically speaking.

Your debate started over the depth of sand bed. As allsps40 said all sand beds will accumulate detritus. There are many factors that determine the "health" of a sand bed. Your debate is hung up on detritus. The real issue that allsps40 was working toward is anaerobic denitrification in which all organic waste can be converted to gas for export from the tank. That's the biggest factor in why the depth of sand bed matters.

can you show me the science then ?

detritus will rott and continue rotting, and releasing checmicals into our tanks, untill removed. no bacteria will remove it. bacteria DO convert the released chemicals to other forms, that are not toxic to fish : nh4- to no3. these are fundamental to any aquarium ... even freshwater ... the term cycle, means converting ammonia to none toxic forms, that's what bacteria do. where does the ammonia come from ? the rotting detritus same place where most of the po4 comes from. even some sponges that EAT detritus, produce waste ... aka detritus.


DEEP SAND BED turning no3 to gas is a whole different story ... that's to remove no3, I am talking about not producing as much nh4- you have to think deeper with an open view to understand.
you are wrong if you think that detritus will eventually turn into gas ... The Chemicals released by rotting detritus WILL turn into gas, but the detritus leacking ammonia and po4 is still there, untill manually removed.

HTH,

 

[galleon]

Guys, you both have valid points. Ultimately allsps40 is more accurate scientifically speaking.

Yeah, no he's not.

 

[JT3069]

but the detritus leacking ammonia and po4 is still there,

or has no more n03 or nh4 left to leech,lol

untill manually removed.

does not even have to be removed manually(if by this you mean the person is manually removing the detritus)

i must ask ALLMOST have you personally had a dsb for any considerable amount of time?
it's like blue prints, everything looks good on paper but contructing is a whole other story.

i have had a deep sand bed for 4 years now and it is very good at keeping no3 down while also breaking down detritus to the point it is not visible by the naked eye

i will post pics soon for verification!

on the other hand i find this debate to be meaningless

well not entirely true. detritus in sand bed rots, and will rise po4 and nh4-. THEN the bacteria convert nh4- to no2 and no3.

the detritus will continue to rott and give out po4 and nh4- till removed from system.

if you are carbon dosing, then bacteria uses carbon, no3 and po4 to grow

as with bio pellets the detritus is eventually turned into bacteria (long story short)
and removed from the system.

 

[Allmost]

Sorry you are simply wrong, I wont continue this with you due to your attitude and not wanting to ruin allsps40's thread.

all I have said here, are from personal experience, I have been keeping marine aquariums for excess of 18 years now. you still do not understand difference between no3 and ammonia [nh4-] so yes, the discussion with you over science is indeed meaningless, cause you do not know what you are talking about.

I will add this, in case u decide to learn instead of posting wrong info. DSB is GREAT at taking care of no3. correct. detritus rotts, it releases nh4- and po4, bacteria take up nh4- and convert it to no2 and then no3. some po4 is removed while bacteria grow, DEEP parts of DSB then convert no3 to GAS [n2] but you are left with the po4 .... and the detritus that will continually release harmful chemicals. hence why DSB is refered to as a po4 factory. If you do not agree with this, its time to do more research !

"as with bio pellets the detritus is eventually turned into bacteria (long story short)
and removed from the system. "

NO ! sorry but simply wrong. Biopellets are solid carbon, they provide C for bacteria, N and P comes from the detritus rotting bacteria consume N and P released by detritus, but not detritus itself.

lastly, yes, manually removing something means a human or a robot removing it.

we should make another thread if you wish to continue this JT.

 

[allsps40]

I dont agree with that. science doesnt agree with it neither.

didnt know u take sceintific discussions as a contest ... wrong way of looking at it my friend.

but anyways ...

How is that no scientifically correct? If bacteria does not break organic matter down then nothing in the world would decompose. How do you think mummies are made. By removing all moisture so no bacteria can grow and break down the organic material.

 

[allsps40]

why do you think that a healthy sand bed bacteria population is so hard to achieve?
I have one that works great with predators like narssius snails.

but there are so many variatables that differ one tank from another.
i say just use what works for you

It is hard to keep a healthy sand bed because the micro fauna will die off or be eaten by predators. If you have a deep sand bed you should replenish the life in it about once a year simply by swapping a few cups of sand with other local reefers, this also helps to diversify the sand bed population. Also by minimizing the sand bed fauna predators like certain snails, fish and sand sifting stars that eat the worms, pods ect in the sand bed.

At this point we have all made valid points and argued are side so I would say that was a good discussion. So lets just agree to disagree.

Moving on. I tossed a milli frag today because it was STNing and I found more AEFW eggs on it. All other effected sps are still egg free. I think I will be removing my scripps milli from the rock because it is STNing also and I think will have AEFWs so I will just cut my lose with that one. I have never been able to get it to color up all the way anyways, dont worry I made a small frag of it that I will try to save. Going to do another dipping session today after work. Also plan to take some new pics for everyone to see.

 

[Charley Diesing]

Update time?

 

[allsps40]

YEah I need to update. Nothing has really changed. Still fighting bubble algae and now some kind of hair algae. I just dont have the time to spend on the tank these days. Oh no more AEFW!!

 

[allsps40]

Look for pics up today. I will take some once the lights come on in a few hours in all my tanks dirty glory.

 

[Charley Diesing]

Look for pics up today. I will take some once the lights come on in a few hours in all my tanks dirty glory.

awesome! Sounds good!

 

[allsps40]

Ok here are some new pics of the tank. I need to replace the MH bulbs and all my RODI filters and get more hermits and snails. My modded MJ impeller shaft started rusting as well so my tank is down on flow, need to get another 1050.

A pic of the algae I am dealing with