80g SPS dominated issues

[callmesaul8889]

Problem: Pale SPS, slow growth, brownish algae, 0ppm NO3.

Tank details:
6 months old
80g Deep Blue/30g sump - ~90-95g total water volume
8x54w ATI T5 dimmable (only 4 bulbs currently running) 2xBlue+, Purple+, Actinic - max 85% blues, 45% purple and actinic
Light is 12" off the water line
55lbs of Walt Smith reef rock - cured for 2 months with bottled bacteria and occasional feedings
60lbs of coarse sand - cured with the rock
Reef Octopus 150 skimmer
Dosing Alk, Cal, and Mag
2x MP10s
Phosban reactor (recently set brought online) with carbon and PhosLock

Params:
0.00ppm NO3 - Salifert
460ppm Cal - Red Sea
0.02ppm PO4 - Hanna ULR
1410ppm Mag - Salifert
8.6dKh Alk - Salifert
8.0 - 8.2 pH - Apex probe
Currently using Red Sea salt pre-mixed by my LFS to get rid of some variables

I'm looking for some guidance on this tank. I'm seeing pale SPS frags that are barely growing, and no matter how much I feed, I can't bring NO3 to a readable level on a Salifert test kit. I stopped using my RO/DI unit recently after getting some rough results on a Triton test. Since switching to my LFS's water, I've seen some good improvements with coloration and polyp extension, but it's still not what it should be.

I'm currently thinking the 0.00ppm number for nitrate is what's keeping my coral from looking better. No matter how much I feed, I can't get that number to budge. I noticed a lot of bacteria slime building up in my filter socks (they'd clog after 3-4 days) so over the past weekend I brought online a carbon reactor with a few TBSP of PhosLock hoping that it will allow me to feed more without getting slimy brown algae over everything.

I'm feeding PE Mysis, LRS Reef Frenzy, OysterFeast, Coral Smoothie, Copepod Max, and Reef Energy. Most days consist of one or two large feedings of shrimp, and one or two broadcast feedings of OysterFeast or Coral Smoothie. Reef Energy was recommended a few weeks ago, so I haven't seen too much change since starting that.

Here's an album of my setup to get a better idea of what everything looks like.
http://imgur.com/a/nni2Q
You can see how the water is slightly hazey. This was after broadcast feeding OysterFeast... it's not typically this cloudy. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[DivingTheWorld]

Feeding more is fine as long as your fish are eating it all. You don't want it collecting around the tank uneaten. The problem with simply feeding more is that it will raise both Nitrate and Phosphate. Also, it's not the fish food which helps the corals, but the fish poop. So if you want to feed more, add some more fish to eat the food.

Your basic problem is that your tank is too new. I had the same problem for the first year, pale corals, super low nutrients. At about 1 year is when my sps started to do well.

My recommendations would be to keep with the easy sps for the first year, such as birdsnest and montis. You can dose to raise the Nitrate which should help with your coral colors and health. I try to maintain my Nitrate around 10ppm. To dose Nitrate you can use something like Pohls Xtra Special, or go with a cheaper Spectracide Stump Remover. But please read multiple threads for both before attempting, and always dose VERY small amounts to start and work your way up.

Good luck and don't worry. I think things will improve for you around the 1 year mark once your tank is seasoned.

 

[callmesaul8889]

Feeding more is fine as long as your fish are eating it all. You don't want it collecting around the tank uneaten. The problem with simply feeding more is that it will raise both Nitrate and Phosphate. Also, it's not the fish food which helps the corals, but the fish poop. So if you want to feed more, add some more fish to eat the food.

Your basic problem is that your tank is too new. I had the same problem for the first year, pale corals, super low nutrients. At about 1 year is when my sps started to do well.

My recommendations would be to keep with the easy sps for the first year, such as birdsnest and montis. You can dose to raise the Nitrate which should help with your coral colors and health. I try to maintain my Nitrate around 10ppm. To dose Nitrate you can use something like Pohls Xtra Special, or go with a cheaper Spectracide Stump Remover. But please read multiple threads for both before attempting, and always dose VERY small amounts to start and work your way up.

Good luck and don't worry. I think things will improve for you around the 1 year mark once your tank is seasoned.

Thanks! That's pretty much exactly what I thought the problem was. If you look at my pics, you'll see I'm going with mostly all montis already and still getting very pale colors, even with a simple monti cap.

I do think that it will mature over time, but I also would like to try to dose some nitrate just to observe the effects. It bothers me seeing the coral stagnant like this. I think I'll try the Stump Remover at first and just see if I can get a reading on my Salifert test.

For the record, my fish do eat all the food I'm feeding, but I do think the OysterFeast and Coral Smoothie is mostly being wasted. The free floating food would only feed the polyps, right? It wouldn't have any major affect on the skin coloration as that's a result of the zooxanthella. Am I understanding it right?

 

[bertoni]

I agree that adding more food is a reasonable idea to try. Whether the fish are eating it or not is a secondary issue. What goes in mostly comes back out. What types of SPS are in the system? I agree that the OysterFeast and similar products might be inappropriate for what's in your system.

If the corals need more nutrients, then the free floating food might help with coloration, directly or indirectly. Coral coloration is a complicated issue.

 

[callmesaul8889]

What types of SPS are in the system?

All frags: digitata, 5 or 6 different encrusting montipora, psammocora, and what I believe to be a green tort of some kind.

I mixed up a dosing solution of KNO3 last night. I'll begin dosing 1ppm per day until I can get a detectable NO3 reading from the water column. I'll be testing daily in the meantime.

 

[tmz]

I thought I saw led reflections in one picture. Sometimes they can cause paling if they are kept on a high setting.

A nitrate deficiency , though with the feeding you are doing it's unlikely. You might try a small amount of sodium nitrate, say a fifth of a tsp or so to raise NO3 to 1ppm or less to see if it matters in your tank. Careful with it though ; it can spur nuisance algae.

 

[callmesaul8889]

I thought I saw led reflections in one picture. Sometimes they can cause paling if they are kept on a high setting.

A nitrate deficiency , though with the feeding you are doing it's unlikely. You might try a small amount of sodium nitrate, say a fifth of a tsp or so to raise NO3 to 1ppm or less to see if it matters in your tank. Careful with it though ; it can spur nuisance algae.

The LEDs are only over the sump and aren't very powerful. The same LED and the same piece of monti cap came from another tank and the color was intensely orange in that other tank.

I am feeding a ton, but every NO3 test, even 1-2 hours after feeding, reads 0.00ppm. The test vial is completely clear. Like I said above, I've started 1ppm daily dosing of KNO3, so we'll see where that leads. I'd like to get to a point where I can read at least 1ppm from the water column.

 

[tmz]

Let us know how it turns out. It's worth noting that corals get a good deal of their nitrogen from ammonia and food sources too. I'd just keep an eye out for upticks in nuisance algae; 1ppm NO3 certainly won't hurt the corals and may help the paling . PO4 at 0.02 is fine ,IME but the extra NO3 might drop it a bit if it was unused due to a notrgen limitation ;so I 'd watch that too.

It's also possible that extra organic carbon from the feeding or dosing is fueling heterotrophic bacteria which will use ammonia in a one step process without the usual nitrate production associated with ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

 

[callmesaul8889]

Let us know how it turns out. It's worth noting that corals get a good deal of their nitrogen from ammonia and food sources too. I'd just keep an eye out for upticks in nuisance algae; 1ppm NO3 certainly won't hurt the corals and may help eae the paling . PO4 at 0.02 is fine ,IME but the extra NO3 might drop it a bit if it was unused due to a notrgen limitation ;so I 'd watch that too.

I will keep an eye on both and try to keep the ratio stable. And I have noticed better coloration with heavier feedings, but not even close to the turn-around I've seen when an unhealthy piece goes into a stable tank. I wonder if it's possible that I used a bit too much bacteria and feedings when curing my rock... I would be able to drop an entire cube of mysis into the curing container and the NO3 would be completely gone in 24 hours.

 

[callmesaul8889]

It's also possible that extra organic carbon from the feeding or dosing is fueling heterotrophic bacteria which will use ammonia in a one step process without the usual nitrate production associated with ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

This is kinda what myself and my LFS employee came up with as a wild-*** guess as to what's going on. Neither of us had the scientific background to say whether it was a legitimate theory or not.

One of the reasons we came to that conclusion was the fact that I get a lot of slimy bacteria that clogs up my pumps, powerheads, and filter socks. My filter socks become fully clogged after 3-4 days of use. Not clogged with detritus, but clogged with a slime.

It's also the reason I brought a PhosBan reactor online with some activated carbon. I saw some other threads recommending a UV sterilizer to keep the bacteria in check, but I'd like to see how far dosing KNO3 gets me first.

 

[bertoni]

Some of those corals, like the Mdntipora, might be able to consume the OysterFeast and similar sized foods. I probably would keep feeding them, although guessing the appropriate amount per day is difficult.

 

[callmesaul8889]

24 hours after the first dosing (which brings up the NO3 by 1ppm), my water column had .2ppm of NO3 and there was a noticeable increase in brown algae. My sock was completely clogged, so I replaced it, scraped the glass, and blew off as much loose algae as I could. I bumped my skimmer up to skim a bit wetter for the meantime.

Last night, I dosed KNO3 again to bring the total NO3 up to 1.2ppm. We'll see where NO3 is today after another 24 hours. I didn't check PO4 last night, but plan on checking it along with NO3 again tonight.

 

[tmz]

I wonder if it's possible that I used a bit too much bacteria and feedings when curing my rock... I would be able to drop an entire cube of mysis into the curing container and the NO3 would be completely gone in 24 hours.
I don't know what bacterial product you used but I'd say in 24 hours it's unlikely much if any ammonia formed from the food any viable bacterial to use ;much less nitrate from ammonia oxidation.

 

[callmesaul8889]

I wonder if it's possible that I used a bit too much bacteria and feedings when curing my rock... I would be able to drop an entire cube of mysis into the curing container and the NO3 would be completely gone in 24 hours.
I don't know what bacterial product you used but I'd say in 24 hours it's unlikely much if any ammonia formed from the food any viable bacterial to use ;much less nitrate from ammonia oxidation.

I used MicroBactr7, Dr. Tim's Re-Fresh, and Dr. Tim's Eco-Balance. I wish I could go back and do more extensive testing, but 1 cube would spike the NO3 up around 5ppm within 6-8 hours, and then begin to decline until it was back to 0.00ppm at about the 20-24 hour mark. I did this test 3 times during the 3 month curing process. I don't recall if I was using a skimmer during this process or not (I had added the skimmer in the last few weeks of curing). The total water volume of the curing container was probably around 20g considering the 55lbs of rock and sand.

 

[callmesaul8889]

Update: I saw decent improvement in color and PE on a few pieces after raising and maintaining my NO3 at around 3ppm. I noticed the brown algae on my sand started to look like dinos, so I siphoned the top layer off during my water change this weekend and must've disturbed the sandbed a bit too much. A few pieces have lost a ton of color, as where others look the same still.

Over the weekend I was able to borrow a PAR meter from my local reef club and I realized that my PAR is barely over 100 at the tip of the tallest Acro. Any time I increase the intensity, everything pales out. It's like my system is ULN, but I can't seem to manage the brown algae (or dinos) on the sandbed.

I'm not really sure what to do at the moment. More feedings will feed the algae and doesn't seem to impact coral health, and less feedings just seem to keep the algae at bay while the coral pales out even in low light conditions.

I have a mix of cerith, zebra, and trochus snails and I keep finding a few zebra snails flipped on their shells in the mornings. I've read that dinos are toxic to snails but I'm unsure of how it affects them.

 

[bertoni]

Hmm, that's a tough one. Some dinoflagellates produce toxins that affect snails that eat the microbes. That might be happening in the system.

Have you checked the phosphate level recently? Is the PhosLock still in the system?

 

[callmesaul8889]

Hmm, that's a tough one. Some dinoflagellates produce toxins that affect snails that eat the microbes. That might be happening in the system.

Have you checked the phosphate level recently? Is the PhosLock still in the system?

I have a Hanna ULR phosphorus meter and I regularly get 0.03ppm, but I've seen 0.00ppm at times depending on how well the powder dissolves. I'm not sure I trust it.

There is still PhosLock in the system in a canister filter with some carbon. I'm aware that phosphate remover can pale coral if added too quickly, so I've ramped up from 1 tbsp to the recommended dosage over 4 weeks. I've been changing the PhosLock weekly as not to leach back into the water (even though the product claims it doesn't leach).

 

[Potatohead]

I think you should slowly add more light, 100 par is really low as you know. I would feed normal amount, continue to dose to 2 - 3 ppm nitrate, and slowly add light until you're around 225 - 250 par at the top corals for about 4 - 5 hours a day.

 

[bertoni]

People have had horrible experiences with dinoflagellates. I haven't seen any remedy that seems to be reliably effective. Have you tried any lower nitrate levels?

 

[callmesaul8889]

People have had horrible experiences with dinoflagellates. I haven't seen any remedy that seems to be reliably effective. Have you tried any lower nitrate levels?

Ugh.. not what I wanted to hear. I have had low nitrate levels (undetectable on salifert) and pale coral which is what lead me to make this thread and start dosing potassium nitrate. I haven't had to dose the KNO3 since last week and it's held at 3ppm. I still had a brown slimy algae/ bacteria when I was at 0.00ppm NO3, and using carbon and raising up nitrate. Since then I've had dinos on the sand. Currently it's a dusting of brown, not sure if dinos at the moment. I'll get pics when I can.