80g SPS dominated issues

[callmesaul8889]

Cyano on the sand bed keeps getting worse. Shortly after raising the amount of rowaphos in my reactor, I started to notice much better polyp extension on my blue tort and acro echinata. My montis still don't look great. Rainbow and superman with nearly bleeched bases and little PE. I'm relunctant to raise the intensity any further for that reason. My rainbow month is at 115 par and not looking very great.

I've read that cyano can strip the nutrients from the water faster than the coral, and I wonder if that's happening. I got more cerith snails to disturb the sandbed a bit. I also wonder if the rowaphos is too aggressive. I'm waiting on more reagent to test for phosphate. I plan on doing a lights out period after my water change this weekend.

Photos:
http://m.imgur.com/a/hmtUU

 

[bertoni]

I think a phosphate test result would be interesting, but until the reagents arrive, you could reduce the amount of RowaPhos in the system. That might help, but there are a lot of variables here. Spending a few minutes a day removing as much slime as is easy to get might help a bit. Fresh carbon could, too, although that's more rare.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

80g SPS dominated issues

Thought I would try and help you out since I had the same issue with this algae. Did you by any chance start your system with dry rock? It could be a leeching issue, as it was with me. As for the algae itself, I took a sample, viewed it under a scope and determined it to be chrysophytes, a silicate loving algae. The reason you are seeing pale sps is once this algae gets going it sucks up ALL of the nutrients and in my experience it even out competed phosguard at removing silicates/phosphates from the water column. Also, since it creates such a low nutrient environment it also spurred the same red slime outbreak in my aquarium.

Okay, now on to what worked for me to rid myself of this terror. After trying to run up to 5 times the amount of phosguard recommended for a system of my size & raising mg up to 1800+ with Tech M, I decided to try Algaefix Marine. This surprisingly decimated the algae in less then a week! However, be very aware of the amount of nutrients that will be released by this rapid die off. I was doing water changes daily to keep my system from crashing. Once the algae is dead keep up with a maintenance dose for a few weeks in order to to keep it from returning and add some Macroalgae (I did so in an HOB fuge). Once I was able to get some other algae growing I was able to stop the algaefix regimen and the cyano slowly died since it was now in a proper nutrient level tank and being out competed. Also as soon as this algae died all of my monti's colored back up in less then a week and are now exhibiting excellent PE. If it is a leeching issue with your rocks you are in for a lot of aggravation, I am still dealing with it in the form of a stubborn hair algae problem but at least my urchin, crabs and snails eat that... See below for a picture of the terror I was dealing with and let me know if I can help with anything else.

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[Orcus Varuna]

I forgot to add that in order to keep silicates in check I am running twice the amount of phosguard recommended for a system of my size, in two separate bags in a canister filter (I use as a reactor) and I change one of the bags anytime I start seeing diatoms on my glass/rocks. Don't be deterred by this algae it can be beat!!!!


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[callmesaul8889]

I think a phosphate test result would be interesting, but until the reagents arrive, you could reduce the amount of RowaPhos in the system. That might help, but there are a lot of variables here. Spending a few minutes a day removing as much slime as is easy to get might help a bit. Fresh carbon could, too, although that's more rare.

I've set my reactor to run 12hrs a day for now until I can test for phosphate again. The reactor doesn't seem to be affecting the cyano as much as the coral. I have a decent amount of carbon in already. One thing that's hard to determine is if my media is extinguished. Both the rowaphos and carbon are only a few weeks old, but I understand that if there's a lot of nutrients in the water, the media can become exhausted rather quickly.

 

[callmesaul8889]

Thought I would try and help you out since I had the same issue with this algae. Did you by any chance start your system with dry rock? It could be a leeching issue, as it was with me. As for the algae itself, I took a sample, viewed it under a scope and determined it to be chrysophytes, a silicate loving algae. The reason you are seeing pale sps is once this algae gets going it sucks up ALL of the nutrients and in my experience it even out competed phosguard at removing silicates/phosphates from the water column. Also, since it creates such a low nutrient environment it also spurred the same red slime outbreak in my aquarium.

I did start with dry rock and dry sand (Walt Smith 2.1 rock and special grade dry sand). I think you're right that a few different types of algae are sucking up nutrients before the coral can get them. As I introduce nutrients the coral perks up, but then the algae follows. My sump has a few different types of nuisance algae that I clean regularly, and the display has the cyano and some other brown algae on the sand. The cyano really started once I lowered the phosphate with the reactor and introduced more NO3 via dosing.

I prefer not to use chemicals if I can fight this naturally. I understand that the goal is to outcompete the cyano with beneficial bacteria which should allow me to control NO3 and PO4 levels without fueling the nuisance algae.

I think I'm going to start with a lights out period this weekend and re-evaluate early next week.

Thanks for the help everyone! I appreciate the brainstorming. I will say that coralline algae growth is starting to pick up (whenever the water column has higher level of NO3), so it seems like once I get past these nuisance algae's taking up all the nutrients (easier said than done), I should be seeing a large improvement in overall tank health.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

I've set my reactor to run 12hrs a day for now until I can test for phosphate again. The reactor doesn't seem to be affecting the cyano as much as the coral. I have a decent amount of carbon in already. One thing that's hard to determine is if my media is extinguished. Both the rowaphos and carbon are only a few weeks old, but I understand that if there's a lot of nutrients in the water, the media can become exhausted rather quickly.

Yes it can exhaust in 2-3 days if the algae dies and your releasing tons of nutrients into your system. Also, in my experience cyano can thrive just fine in a very low/no nutrient environment. Also, if you can't test for phosphate montipora fading with poor PE, especially the encrusters, are an excellent indicator that your system is phosphate poor.


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[callmesaul8889]

Yes it can exhaust in 2-3 days if the algae dies and your releasing tons of nutrients into your system. Also, in my experience cyano can thrive just fine in a very low/no nutrient environment. Also, if you can't test for phosphate montipora fading with poor PE, especially the encrusters, are an excellent indicator that your system is phosphate poor.


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What if the montipora was fading with poor PE before the reactor too? :sad2: Honestly, montis in my system have never looked great. You can check the photos that I've posted and see how pale they look.

I'm very torn between two different ideas: increase nutrients to drive coral health, or decrease nutrients to fight algae/cyano. Increasing nutrients is just feeding the algae and cyano, but decreasing nutrients just seems to be ****ing my coral off while the algae is still there. I'm going to do a bunch of manual removal this weekend before the lights out period.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

IMO the two forms of algae you have can thrive like no other in a nutrient poor system. If I were you I would give the algaefix a shot and take care of the chrysophytes first. Once you get that under control the cyano will take care of itself as you return to a more natural flora/fauna balance. The algae your fighting is an odd mostly freshwater class of organisms that thrives off silicates/phosphates and is so effective at uptaking nutrients to fuel its growth that no normal effort ime worked (black out, phosphate remover etc.). I think this nutrient uptake mechanism is why the algaefix worked so well for me and why it would be worth a shot in your system also.


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[callmesaul8889]

IMO the two forms of algae you have can thrive like no other in a nutrient poor system. If I were you I would give the algaefix a shot and take care of the chrysophytes first. Once you get that under control the cyano will take care of itself as you return to a more natural flora/fauna balance. The algae your fighting is an odd mostly freshwater class of organisms that thrives off silicates/phosphates and is so effective at uptaking nutrients to fuel its growth that no normal effort ime worked (black out, phosphate remover etc.). I think this nutrient uptake mechanism is why the algaefix worked so well for me and why it would be worth a shot in your system also.


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I'd like to try to identify the algae as chrysophytes before doing anything extreme. I don't own a microscope and I've never ID'd anything like that before, so I'm going to ask around my local forums to see if anyone has one. Did you have any SPS in the tank when using algaefix?

 

[Orcus Varuna]

I understand not wanting to treat without iding. If you can acquire a scope they are quite interesting creatures. They don't have a cell wall but thier cell membrane is silicate based and they will be a golden hue when hit with light.

Finally, yes I did have multiple sps (all monti species) an anemone and a clam along with fish and the only thing that died during the treatment was 1 emrald crab and my chrysophytes. Red slime did spread rapidly for a week after the initial treatment but died back after about 2 weeks, as my tank settled down. After the slime went away the tank stabilized and chaeto started to grow in my fuge and the sps colored up!


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[callmesaul8889]

I understand not wanting to treat without iding. If you can acquire a scope they are quite interesting creatures. They don't have a cell wall but thier cell membrane is silicate based and they will be a golden hue when hit with light.

Finally, yes I did have multiple sps (all monti species) an anemone and a clam along with fish and the only thing that died during the treatment was 1 emrald crab and my chrysophytes. Red slime did spread rapidly for a week after the initial treatment but died back after about 2 weeks, as my tank settled down. After the slime went away the tank stabilized and chaeto started to grow in my fuge and the sps colored up!


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Awesome, thanks. That makes me feel better about using it. I'll do some more research and go from there. I'd like to have a bunch of water on hand for after the treatments too. I'm guessing my dragon's breath macro algae should come out of the system before using an algae killing product.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

Awesome, thanks. That makes me feel better about using it. I'll do some more research and go from there. I'd like to have a bunch of water on hand for after the treatments too. I'm guessing my dragon's breath macro algae should come out of the system before using an algae killing product.

If you do decide in the algaefix route I would take the macro out just to be safe and definitely have tons of water on hand. Its amazing how many nutrients will be released if that algae dies. I skimmed five gallons of water out of a 29 gallon system in less then a week. And I did daily 2.5 gallon water changes also during that week. One more thing if you have one lying around I would throw an aqua clear hob on the system with some floss to remove any dead algae floating in the tank and to agitate the surface of your tank.


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[Orcus Varuna]

O and one more thing when your skimming that much be sure to account for the salt being removed in your top off water.


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[callmesaul8889]

O and one more thing when your skimming that much be sure to account for the salt being removed in your top off water.


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Will do. I need to get a new refractometer, mine is really inconsistent anymore. I noticed in the pic you posted you had a few snails on their shells. Did you have a lot of dying snails when your algae problem was bad? I noticed my turbos and ceriths are lethargic compared to before I put them in my tank, and I semi-regularly find dying snails on their backs.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

Will do. I need to get a new refractometer, mine is really inconsistent anymore. I noticed in the pic you posted you had a few snails on their shells. Did you have a lot of dying snails when your algae problem was bad? I noticed my turbos and ceriths are lethargic compared to before I put them in my tank, and I semi-regularly find dying snails on their backs.

I forgot about that but yes I did have some snail deaths but only certain species. Nassarius Vibex and Cerithum Atratum were hit particularly hard while banded trochus, nerites, fighting conch and Super Tongan Nassarius were just fine.


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[callmesaul8889]

I forgot about that but yes I did have some snail deaths but only certain species. Nassarius Vibex and Cerithum Atratum were hit particularly hard while banded trochus, nerites, fighting conch and Super Tongan Nassarius were just fine.


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Yep, that sounds right in line with what I'm experiencing. Trochus seem unfazed, turbos seem okay until my melanarus wrasse messes with them and they don't seem to recover well, and ceriths just seem inactive for the most part.

 

[callmesaul8889]

Okay, so I did 3 doses of AlgaeFix which quickly wiped out all algae besides the cyano (it actually seemed to get worse). I'm in day 2 of a 3 day lights out period. I'm going to do 2 or 3 larger water changes over the weekend to remove the last of the cyano if there is any left.

A couple of interesting things happened in the meantime... For one, I replaced a small section of skimmer airline with thicker tubing (I have the airline run outside) and instantly saw my pH rise from 8.05 to 8.2. I didn't realize the slightly smaller tube was affecting the airflow that much. I'm wondering if my skimmer was less than effective for the past few months. I've never seen pH as high as that without the lights on, so that's interesting by itself.

I also got a delivery of new reagent packets for my Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter. The first test using the new reagent packets showed phosphate at ~0.09ppm in the water column and 0.07ppm out of the phosban reactor. I'm blown away by how high the levels are since the previous reagent packets never showed levels over 0.03ppm. I must have had a bad batch of reagent.

My plan as of today is to get 30g of saltwater ready for a water change, replace the rowaphos in my reactor, and continue for another day with the lights out. I'm hoping that the water changes combined with new media will lower phosphate and help starve off the cyano. My montiporas aren't happy, but everything else seems like it's hanging on well enough.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

My monti's weren't the happiest either but they survived just fine and the phosphate spike is definitely expected, just think of how much algae died in such a short period. Also, I know that there was a bad batch of ULR packets awhile back and that definitely could have hidden your leaching issue. I know it is unpopular but I always find a combination of phosguard and purigen to be very effective when you have a massive nutrient release, as they are color changing and take up nutrients so rapidly. As for the Cyano mine also got worse but as soon as your water quality stabilizes that should go away. In all my years of reefing I have never had cyano thrive in a stable system. Finally, the chemical in algaefix is active in our systems for about 24 hrs so you can add back any macro's as soon as you are done with your lights out.

You ran into quite an odd algae to get in a marine system and it doesn't help that there is basically no information available in the community on them. I just hope I have been helpful, I may be new to the forums but I have tons of experience and a nice shiny degree that I never use, so it is nice to be able to use it here. Let me know if you need anymore help!!!

BTW pH is an odd animal, you would think more air would decrease pH due to atmospheric CO2 being infused into the water column. But I digress, I gave up chasing a specific pH years ago haha.


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[tc2007]

Orcus Varuna what dry rock did you start with. I am having similar issues as both of you.

* Started with Pukani Dry rock about 3 months ago. Not cured.
* Hair algae started showing up with some cyano. P04 was on the high end of salifert test.
* I started LaCl dosing couple of times, P04 is not readable anymore.
* This caused sudden drop in salinity and my 2-3 SPS frags are near death. Got salinity back to normal about 9ish.
* The bigger problem is that even though P04 is not showing on the test anymore, the hair algae has exploded after removed the P04 in water. I think the rocks are leaching.
* The rocks are now covered with what looks like in your pics. Fuzzy hair algae that are not too dark and have oxygen bubbles.
* I am dosing vodka since the last 10 days as my nitrates are showing 50ppm. This may be playing a part in algae bloom and cyano bloom. Not sure if I should continue.
* Also a large portion of the rock seems to be covered in red slime algae or cyano. Not sure which. There is some cyano on the sand bed.

* Today I added a sea hare and 2 turbos. Hopefully the hair algae will go away eventually. Don't want to take extreme steps like Algaefix. Worried that my acans and other lps frags that are doing OK will take a turn for the worst.

Hoping you guys provide updates here. I haven't tested for silicates yet.