A challenge: can you?

[texdoc77]

New Parameters for this morning:
Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.023 I did dose some salt water
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0.04, did not test this morning
Alkalinity: 9.3, was 9.2 yesterday, likely variance in testing did not dose last night
Calcium: 475, went a little over but still in line and it should come down
Mg: 1520, apparently the kent Tech M had settled to the bottom and I did not shake well before dosing the day before. I added the same amount last night and got this little bump. Definitely over my end point, but I don't think detrimental, all sea life doing well

So now to see what they do over the next week with just my AWC running...

 

[TokiHacker]

I use aquarimate, I have an apex but do not use their parameter settings, not sure why...

Notepad and pen. lol. But I am actually going to move to the aquarimate. That looks cool

 

[Sk8r]

Lol---I'm so old-fashioned; I use a little notebook and pen kept with the testing supplies in a box.
I'm happy to see people making progress. It IS slow to correct a situation. I have the parameters listed in a sticky up top, should they be hard to ferret out of a thread. Keep your own records on your tank, and you'll begin to see visually how they change, how fast they change, and therefore you'll know what affects your tank---I also write down changes I've made in the tank---and how fast it affects it. It's sort of like learning the controls on a new car. Once you really know how your individual tank responds to doses, you'll begin to do it automatically.

Curiously so many people are antsy about corals and think a coral tank is hard, but as you get more adept at this, you may find they're a help: fish just swim along looking happy, then roll over when the situation goes catastrophic; but corals shrivel and look unhappy when things are mildly off, sort of like a warning saying "something's off! Test, please!" so you can fix it. You won't spend your lives testing daily or close to it, but establishing a regimen where you, say, test on a given day...that's going to save you a lot of lost fish and problems. Likewise---if you develop good habits like testing, dosing, then testing again in 8 hours, you will know whether you did enough or too much. Controllers and dosers are lovely, but basic knowledge of the hands-on chemistry will make sure the person running the machinery really, really understands what's going on chemically.
If you are dosing out-of-parameter water with a problem---you dose mag first (the chemical abbreviation is mg) to 'steady' the water. Then you dose dkh buffer, which solves the ph/alkalinity balance, until it's spot-on: the alkalinity governs the ability of calcium to dissolve properly. Then you dose the calcium last: muscle, bone, and shells all depend on calcium for action and durability: good calcium level means healthy fish, happy corals, and good skeleton and shells.

What I use: a refractometer, no particular brand; Salifert tests for alk, cal, mg; nitrate; and some ordinary swimming pool test strips for ammonia; I have the phosphate test but that's rarely an issue: if you have green algae, you have an excess of phosphate, but it's IN the algae so a test won't read it. I don't test that unless I start seeing green in the dt. Test it once and kind of know you can test it if you need to. For supplements I use Kent brand: Kent DKH Alkalinity Buffer; Kent Turbo Calcium; Kent Tech-M [mg] and, for kalk supplement in the ro/di reservoir, Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime --- no joke. It's lime, from limestone, a calcium provider. If you do not keep stony corals or clams you don't need kalk; but if you do, it's a very nice down-and-dirty way to feed them until kalk is no longer enough for them. THEN you go to a calcium reactor. You also don't dose kalk in a new tank: it's when you get two or three actively growing stony coral you find your parameters won't stay stable and the reason is the stony coral is sucking calcium like mad. Which is a good thing. THat's when you start using kalk.

 

[ReeferDash]

Curiously so many people are antsy about corals and think a coral tank is hard, but as you get more adept at this, you may find they're a help: fish just swim along looking happy, then roll over when the situation goes catastrophic; but corals shrivel and look unhappy when things are mildly off, sort of like a warning saying "something's off! Test, please!" so you can fix it. You won't spend your lives testing daily or close to it, but establishing a regimen where you, say, test on a given day...that's going to save you a lot of lost fish and problems. Likewise---if you develop good habits like testing, dosing, then testing again in 8 hours, you will know whether you did enough or too much. Controllers and dosers are lovely, but basic knowledge of the hands-on chemistry will make sure the person running the machinery really, really understands what's going on chemically.

I love this about corals. They're really quit communicative for an animal that doesn't even have a brain, in their ways. I honestly don't do a broad range test on my water much at all; I listen to my coral. Even in complicated scenarios I'll just test for a few parameters. For example, if both my cespitularia and my clavularia are wilty, I know there is something off with my calcium, alkalinity or magnesium; so I'll just test for those three. If just my cespitularia is wilty, I know there's something wrong with my salinity, so I just read it. If only my montis look unhappy, I know there's too much nitrate or phosphate, so I read them; when my xenia get little curls of less expanded flesh on the ends of their tentacle-feather-tips and don't pulse with a consistent rhythm (per polyp) I know that my nutrients are too low and it's time to feed. Sometimes what they tell me isn't specific, but the solution is; for example, when my clavularia has droopy polyps or my red cyphastrea looks paler or splotchy then I know there's some kind of toxin in the water, I assume from allelopathic real estate warfare, and I just need to run carbon for a few days or do a water change, depending on the size of the tank (I keep a lot of picos too).

So for me, it's still important to pay attention to what's going on chemically, but I find that the corals themselves will tell you a lot about what you need to pay attention to, specifically. Of course, I'm also not keeping corals as finicky as acros, for whom daily stability is a lot more important than it is to even my montis.

 

[ReeferDash]

Also, in retrospect I have to admit I only learned what the coral were telling me by doing a spectrum of tests every day, so Sk8r is definitely still right about the importance of regular testing.


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[Elricsfate]

You know Sk8r, the first time I read this thread (right after you started it) I thought to myself "Yes! I will do this!" And each and every day since...I have failed to do it.

Pretty sure I can run these tests quicker than an hour twenty as one poster said it took, but it is still a bit of a time commitment. However, I do appreciate the fact that by issuing this challenge you have also challenged me to consider that time commitment, and the fact that I owe it not to myself, or my wife...or you. But, I owe it to the creatures whose lives rest solely in my hands, living in a tank of my making.

I am going to commit to posting in this thread with actual figures before I go to bed tonight. And should I find out that things are seriously out of whack...which may be what I am concerned about (ignorance is bliss...) I will suck it up and post them anyway.

Thanks for starting this.

 

[Sk8r]

bravo!
Proper light and proper water. There's very little MORE important, when it comes to the welfare and survival of the critters. If the water's off, things die. If it's really good, they grow and thrive.

 

[Elricsfate]

SO last night got hectic, but I woke this morning and did this first thing.

And as I was reading the numbers I thought to myself..."Wow, am I about to get hammered!" lol Tank has fish in it, and no ammonia, but still shows nitrite...so I didn't cycle it properly. Anyway...here they are:

Temp 76.8
pH 7.97
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient)
dkh 11.7
Mag 1080
cal 320

For reference this tank has fish, the assorted CUC, and a few LPS/Softies (by a few I mean 8) Almost entirely Leathers and Mushrooms (little, teeny, tiny ones). However, the wife was using the internet again (gotta keep a better eye on that) and she saw something pretty. So surprise! A box arrived yesterday with one each of the following:

Purple Whip Gorgonian
Blueberry Sea Fan
Radioactive Dragon Eye Zoanthids

Not sure I was ready for them, though I agree with her that they are pretty. At this point though, all I can do is give it my best shot...

I will now assume the position... :uhoh3:

 

[ReeferDash]

A box arrived yesterday with one each of the following:



Purple Whip Gorgonian

Blueberry Sea Fan

Radioactive Dragon Eye Zoanthids



Not sure I was ready for them, though I agree with her that they are pretty. At this point though, all I can do is give it my best shot...



I will now assume the position... :uhoh3:

Not sure if you've already done your research and found this, but that blueberry sea fan is not photosynthetic, and will need a lot of feeding; and even the purple sea whip, while photosynthetic, does best with supplemental plankton feeding.



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[Sk8r]

Temp 76.8---raise a degree
pH 7.97---ok: it fluctuates wildly during the day, rarely matters.
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient) water change will help sink that. 5 is better.
dkh 11.7: that's high. let it sink to 8.3, then raise the mg to 1350 and cal to 420 and see if it'll stabilize. It WILL fall with the mg below 1200, as it is.
Mag 1080
cal 320

 

[Elricsfate]

Not sure if you've already done your research and found this, but that blueberry sea fan is not photosynthetic, and will need a lot of feeding; and even the purple sea whip, while photosynthetic, does best with supplemental plankton feeding.



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Indeed. I am aware. I have already bought food and concocted a delivery method.

As I said, I plan to give it my best shot. Success being far from guaranteed...but I have to do what I can. At the end of the day, getting the water straight is more of a challenge then simply feeding some corals. So, I am cautiously optimistic.

I have to say, I do think these things are pretty (in the pictures. The actual corals I currently have look like small sticks). So I hope I'm successful with them.

 

[Elricsfate]

Temp 76.8---raise a degree
pH 7.97---ok: it fluctuates wildly during the day, rarely matters.
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient) water change will help sink that. 5 is better.
dkh 11.7: that's high. let it sink to 8.3, then raise the mg to 1350 and cal to 420 and see if it'll stabilize. It WILL fall with the mg below 1200, as it is.
Mag 1080
cal 320

I want to say that it is helpful to me (and I am sure others) to have you go point by point and suggest things.

As I know you know, starting out this can be a bit overwhelming. So I appreciate the inputs. I will do a WC, up the temp, and post here again in a day or two.

 

[crabbydan]

Will join in tomorrow morning. SK8R... May I ask what test kits you use for each test? Not asking for debates on what the best kit/s are just curious what you use?

 

[Sk8r]

I use Salifert: numeric results for alk-cal-mg; nitrate is still color match. And past your cycle, pool test strips for the ammonia; if the strip reacts, that's enough to know---there's a problem.

 

[crabbydan]

Ok I was shocked at my results and I admit I have not tested in months and by the look of the exp dates on my test bottles maybe a year.

All test with API except Salinity is with a refractometer
and Mag was with salifert test says expired 12/2016
salinity 1.025
temperature: 77 to 78
ammonia: 0 - 0.25 had a turbo snail recently die and omg smell.
Nitrite 0
nitrate: 5.0
alkalinity: 10dkh or 179 ppm KH
calcium: 340
magnesium: 890
PH 8.0

My area AZ has very hard water, my water softner died and I am sure this has an impact even though I use RODI with an extra sediment filter on the front and an extra DI chamber on the end.

Side notes I am going to get some new test kits as my api kits are all over a year old.
Tank info 105 dsa.
Snails no crabs. one bta, 12 headed duncan, small 2 headed torch. several zoas. Duncan grows started as 3 heads everything else stays about the same except one kind of green zoa grows everywhere. Sump has refugium section sand live rock little chateo little red cyno. Skimmer vertex omega 150. lights 2 kessil 360w.
Fish and inverts; 3 peppermint shrimp, 1 cleaner shrimp, pistol shrimp and orange spotted goby, green clown goby, blue neon striped goby, captive bred coral beauty no more than 1 inch long, royal gramma, ocellaris clown.

Also I am happy with my tank but do want to take it to the next level for corals. Not sure where to start first on fixing that mag, cal and is kh off too? should that be a new thread? also pics to follow.

 

[crabbydan]

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[crabbydan]

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[Sk8r]

Crabbydan, your alk is an issue for softies; and here's where you can make a choice: the BALANCE in which your water stays 'set' for considerable periods with no futzing relies on the trilateral connection, Alk, Cal, Mg being as I stated earlier. HOWEVER, neither fish nor soft coral USE the cal and mg up as fast as stony coral and clams, so you can squeak by just watching the alk---but honestly,getting it ALL set right is going to hold you for a long time in balance, so that that alk is going to stay put nicely until the mg runs down, which takes a long time with softies or fish-onlies. It's a choice. My advice is go the whole nine yards and get everything in balance because in the long run it's less work.

And watch the expiration date on those tests. Some tests when expired (alk) can read wrong and really mess things up.

 

[crabbydan]

So where do I start? I have read many post some I think by you that say get mag fixed first then stabilize by doing x y and or z. So do I start a help me post to get everything in check? Assuming after I get some updated test kits. Thoughts?

 

[juniorrocketdad]

This is what I have. I bought it for a bryopsis outbreak that I cured by buying a new tank LOL. Anyway it is pretty old, maybe 1.5 yrs. The BRS Mag solution was difficult to make (one of the powders was caked together and I had to scrape it and ripped my knuckles up on the razor sharp opening) and I did not want to use all of it bringing the mag to normal. However, at this point I will use it tonight to do just that.

I used the brs stuff too and one of them was rock solid so I just use a drill, put it on the hammer mode with a large drill bit and it chops it right up