A challenge: can you?

[Sk8r]

Elricsfate, first test your ro/di water. Be sure your TDS is zero, ie, that your filters are all good.
Then the culprit COULD be your salt mix: brands differ in levels: I went to Instant Ocean because Oceanic was piling up magnesium---every water change adding more as critters were not using it fast enough. Oceanic is great with a packed stony reef, but this tank is not so populated. 10 alk is not horrid. I'd just run with it, thinking that sooner or later the frags will start eating and numbers will move more rapidly downward. Go ahead and bring the calcium up and just keep an eye on the mg...as it drifts down past 1200, the alk will start to sink and then you can balance things. Do at least weekly tests until this all sorts out. And you might put one fish into your frag tank, a little guy, and maybe some crabs, with very light feeding, so that the poo level supplies the corals with nutrient.

 

[Elricsfate]

Elricsfate, first test your ro/di water. Be sure your TDS is zero, ie, that your filters are all good.
Then the culprit COULD be your salt mix: brands differ in levels: I went to Instant Ocean because Oceanic was piling up magnesium---every water change adding more as critters were not using it fast enough. Oceanic is great with a packed stony reef, but this tank is not so populated. 10 alk is not horrid. I'd just run with it, thinking that sooner or later the frags will start eating and numbers will move more rapidly downward. Go ahead and bring the calcium up and just keep an eye on the mg...as it drifts down past 1200, the alk will start to sink and then you can balance things. Do at least weekly tests until this all sorts out. And you might put one fish into your frag tank, a little guy, and maybe some crabs, with very light feeding, so that the poo level supplies the corals with nutrient.

Thanks for the advice. I have the BRS RODI with TDS meters going in and coming out. So I know the TDS is 0. The odd part is, my LFS didn't have Reef Crystals when I last went, so I made up a 50g barrel using regular IO...which is what I filled this tank with.

I will do as you say. Any suggestions on a fish? I'm not going through the hassle of getting one out of the 180, so I'll need to just buy a new one. I'm not particular, as this is more a function than form type arrangement.

 

[Sk8r]

A twenty---with sand? Without? You could deal with the very smallest fish, or just some snails and hermits: poo is poo. Gobies need sand. Blennies need rocks. If it's just a frag rack, maybe a sixline wrasse, small and cranky little fellow, but alone, he could probably be fine.

 

[crabbydan]

I use instant ocean reef crystals and just realized on the box that if you mix your salt to 1.024 vs 1.025 you have different mag levels. I always mix to 1.025 should i worry about trying to keep my salinity higher or lower for the sake of starting mag levels?

 

[Elricsfate]

A twenty---with sand? Without? You could deal with the very smallest fish, or just some snails and hermits: poo is poo. Gobies need sand. Blennies need rocks. If it's just a frag rack, maybe a sixline wrasse, small and cranky little fellow, but alone, he could probably be fine.

Just a glass box. No sand, and only the rocks the frags are on...which are small as well.

 

[Sk8r]

THen I'd go with hermits and turbo snails. They'll crawl on corals, but their tiny feet have almost no mass---never have seen any damage from them.

 

[Sk8r]

Crabby, in answer to your question, a tank EVAPORATES water, thus becoming more salty, saltier than critters may like. So if you set your salinity at 1.024 you've got .02 leeway of saltiness before you hit bad territory. If you set it at 1.025, any evaporation will see you at 1.026, which is the upper limit of 'good'. So it depends on how good your ATO is: if it keeps it right on the mark, it's ok to go to 1.025; if it's apt to wait longer before topping off, being at a higher mark already may not give you enough leeway. Make sense? Salinity rises as evaporation drops the water level: salt becomes more concentrated.

 

[crabbydan]

Thanks, I have a pretty solid ATO on my main tank (Tunze) the more expensive one with the eye thing. Salinity is the one stat I have no issues keeping on the money and consistent. I also use a fractometer before and after every water change each week. So I am starting a spreadsheet and tracking everything and everything I do starting this weekend. Time to go deeper down that rabbit hole.

 

[crabbydan]

FYI, After a water change and getting a new test kit mag tested at 1130. Getting a new Cal test tomorrow since i just got paid.

 

[crabbydan]

I decided to play the game and get my tank to a state where I know it will be better for fish and corals. As I rarely tested after cycling and what corals I do have just seem to linger and never really grow or glow.
3/17 DKH 9.7 MAG 1130 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 as i get an overnight flux. Added 150ML of Kent M
3/18 DKH 9.9 MAG 1160 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added 200ML 24hr later Kent M
3/19 DKH 9.8 MAG 1160 CAL 350 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added 150ML 24hr later Kent M
3/20 DKH 9.9 MAG 1250 CAL 345 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added nothing for 2 days
3/22 DKH 10 MAG 1130 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79

Tested ammonia at 0 each day with an old test kit. Did not check phos as I know its there from algae growth in sump and a couple DT places. Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5-15 depending on shade of yellow on old test kit.

Ok so from this exercise can my mag really drop that much in 2 days?
Also did I hear someone somewhere say fix mag first once it is in the right place fix DKH and then fix cal last. Is this true? Also how would I bring DKH down? Last what is the best way to raise Cal if I can ever get my mag stable?

 

[Elricsfate]

You did in fact hear "someone" (Sk8) say to fix Mag first.

I also seem to have naturally high dkh. It runs around 10 even when I haven't added anything to the water. Not sure if this is a problem, or if the corals will just consume it and grow unti they reac a point where they are reducing it by enough for me to need to start adding it.

I won't presume to step into the expert's shoes here, but the "best" way to increase calcium would likely depend on how much money you have top spend. I would imagine the cheapest effective way to raise it would be to simply, manually, add calcium (available from BRS and many other places).

 

[Sk8r]

YOu may be using a brand of salt that has high mg. Look into that. Oceanic has sky high levels, which is nice in a 'packed' reef, but not when you have only a couple of frags that aren't feeding much.
That is correct. Mg first. Then alk. Then cal.
A cheap and easy way to increase cal is to use kalk. Use supplements hand dosed to bring calcium to 420, then put 2 tsp per gallon of kalk powder (Mrs Wages Pickling Lime is real cheap! and works!) into your topoff water, stir it once, lid it (use sponge for a gasket on the lid) and let it be. As it enters your tank, the alkalinity of the water allows it to dissolve, and the magnesium content of the water supports the alkalinity and lets it stay stable. The corals get fed, and you didn't have to outlay big bucks for a controller or doser. This is pretty well the way the ocean does it: the calcium carbonate of old coral dissolves in the seawater and feeds new corals.

In non-growth of corals, look to a) stable water quality b) physical stability (is the frag firmly mounted: they don't like wobble) and c) lighting.

 

[crabbydan]

So is the mag drop from 3/20 to 3/22 normal. I always thought mag depletion was low and slow?
Also where do you get your mrs wages amazon local store? Any recommendations on an original Kalk additive to get up to par before going the top off mrs wages route.

 

[Sk8r]

I use Kent Turbo Calcium to get up to level. I get Mrs. Wages from the grocery store during canning season and from Amazon at other times.
Levels can drop precipitately but the first suspicion is a test irregularity---ie, a mistake.

 

[crabbydan]

Working from home so for my lunch break decided to go test mag again. Result with new siefert kit was 1170. So better result but still a drop from previous tests. I planned to test for the next 2 weeks straight as I try to get a handle on water quality. Thanks for your challenge and shared knowledge so far......

 

[Elricsfate]

As a NTTH person, you likely sit by your tank for hours; and fuss and futz and want Something To Do.
Let's make it interesting.
Got your test kits? Salinity/temperature/Nitrate/ammonia/alkalinity/calcium/magnesium:---and want to try a skill challenge?

Test daily. (for one thing, your skills at that operation will improve)
Report your numbers in this thread every day or every few days, whatever you can manage. See how many days running you can hold it.

Your target numbers:
salinity 1.024 to 1.026 (a fish-only can be 1.019)
temperature: 78 to 80
ammonia: 0
nitrate: under 20
alkalinity: 7.9 to 8.3
calcium: 420: this is really important for a reef. Fish-only may be down as far as 400, but 420 makes an easier balance.
magnesium: 1350 or a shade higher; no lower than 1200.

The object is to see how many days in a row you can keep all this spot on.
The prize in general is a tank that's going to have far fewer problems.
[target numbers are set for fairly easy balance. You may figure if you are badly 'out' on any of these, you may have sickened a pretend-fish. just say: 'all on target' or post the one that's 'off'.

Now: how to cope with a sinking but not 'out' number. If your alk is falling, you need to check your mg, which is closely related to it. Bring the mg up to snuff; test in 8 hours; THEN dose the alk buffer, to bring the alk back stable; the calcium is related to both of these. Sounds like a balancing act, right?

It is. And the point of balance is the magnesium: if it's in the zone, the other two readings will behave. If you learn that from this exercise, your life in this hobby will be much easier.

If you have a controller, cool. It's an allowable 'cheat'. If you don't, also cool: I've run for decades with no controller, just tests and hand-dosing---and kalk. I'll explain that: if you add 2 tsp per gallon of kalk to your topoff reservoir and your mg level is 1350 or so, the kalk will supply alk and cal so long as the reservoir holds out. It's another 'cheat' and very easy to do.

I will happily answer questions like: my nitrate is 30---what should I do? and other problems, too.

I some level of phosphate allowable, or should it be 0 at all times, period?

 

[Sk8r]

SOme is good if you have blennies or other fish that eat algae and rely on it. If you're simultaneously trying to keep sps, which likes it least, that can be a problem. If on the other hand you have lps or softies, they don't mind a small amount, and frog and candycane even seem to like that bit.

 

[Elricsfate]

SOme is good if you have blennies or other fish that eat algae and rely on it. If you're simultaneously trying to keep sps, which likes it least, that can be a problem. If on the other hand you have lps or softies, they don't mind a small amount, and frog and candycane even seem to like that bit.

As I am in the midst of trying to bring my tank into a set of stable, well-defined parameters, can you define "a small amount"?

I've decided to take all of my frags and put them in my 20g, and leave them there for a good long while. I had intended my 180 to be a FOWLR tank, but my wife and I got all wide-eyed in a store one day and wound up with some corals. After struggling for a bit I have decided to move them into a smaller tank where I can control the parameters more easily while I gain experience.

For the most part I have some leathers, xenia, GSP, and a paly (that I really like!) So I'm trying to figure where to settle on the parameters. I am awaiting a new hanna test kit, but right now on my Red Sea it appears my water is either .08 or.16 (hard to tell the difference on the Red Sea). That's fresh out of the RODI (a whole different thread and issue I am working on).

Bottom line, in a softie/LPS tank what should I shoot for?

 

[crabbydan]

Ok this thread really got me going and I started a spreadsheet as follows;
Date MAG CAL DKH PH Salt nitrate nitrite phos Actions
Goal 1250-1350 400-500 7-11 8-12 8.1-9.3 1.025
3/17/17 1130 350 9.7 1.025 added 150 ml kent M
3/18/17 1160 1.025 200ml kent m
3/19/17 1160 1.025 150ml kent m
3/20/17 1250 1.025
3/22/17 1130 355 10 8.3 1.025 200ml kent m
3/23/17 1170 1.025
3/25/17 1200 1.025
3/26/17 WC WC WC WC WC water change / add scrubber / cleaned sump
3/27/17 1170 390 10.2 8 1.025 added 200 ml kent m
3/28/17 1275 380 10 1.025
3/29/17 1250 375 10 1.025 added 150ml kent m
3/30/17 1320 375 9.9 1.025
4/2/17 WC WC WC WC WC water change
4/9/17 1230 355 9.9 1.025
4/11/17 1300 1.025 added 150ml kent m
4/13/17 1330 375 9.9 8 1.025 added 150ml kent m
Once I get the mag to stabalize i want to raise my calc and then maintain it. I bought some Kent Turbo Calcium. Im getting lost on using this.
The product label says mix 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per gallon mix and dose.

The calculator at http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html says
380 to 420
Product Required = 35.6 grams; 1.2 oz; approx 7.1 tsp
Warnings =Dissolve it in RO/DI or distilled water before dosing and do not dose all at once. Although it may be ok to do so, Do not increase more than 25 ppm per day. Dose 1/3 to 1/2 and the next day test. Check your levels and then dose another portion.

So is this saying add 7.1 tsp to a gallon mix it and dose that over 2 to 3 days? the product label just says per gallon and neither really tell you any details. Of course I am doing nothing till i research and get more advice. So send me some advice?

Onc ei am done raising it I do have pickling lime to maintain but not doing that untill i get this figured out.

 

[Sk8r]

That would be good.

Re ElricsFate's question---an amount in fractions of one, or an amount that gives you enough algae to keep a blenny, if you have a blenny.